The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[Steeno7]

The Christian life is about Christ, but it doesn't "just happen." We have to put effort into it.

Nothing that you said counters my points... You just denied all of them and classified them as "unrelated."

You're right. We can't obey the law of God without Jesus Christ. Under the new covenant, He gives us the tools we need to resist temptation. But we still have to make an effort.

Loving each other fulfills the law, yes. This means that the law shows us how to love each other.

Let me put this another way. If you get a self-assembly kit for a bookshelf, and you put it together without using the instructions, that doesn't mean that the instructions don't tell you how to do it. It means you followed the instructions without actually using them. You still fulfilled the purpose of the instructions. You just didn't use the instructions to do it. You weren't bound by the instructions because you already had the ability to create what they were showing you how to create.

The law is similar. It tells us how to love others and love God. If we love others and love God through Jesus' power, we fulfill the law, even if we're not bound by it. We follow the law instinctively because the Spirit that God gives us shows us how to.

The law is like an instruction booklet for how to love others. God gives us the power to love others through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But He also gives us the guidebook because He knows we won't always get it right, and there's a lot of confusing and wrong ideas about what it means to "love others" out there. Will we ever be able to live perfectly? No. But that doesn't release us from the responsibility to try.

Nope.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I keep hearing this idea that keeping the Law is showing love when in fact it is simply showing "not hate" instead. Jesus proclaimed that avoiding physical adultery wasn't enough which is what the Law equates, he goes on to say lusting after a married person is adultery and to add to that he doesn't say "not murdering" is enough which is as far as the Law goes he equates HATING your brother is MURDER.
The Law doesn't equate love but "not hate". To fall back on the Law when told to love your brother gives you an excuse to HATE him because the Law ALLOWS it.

 

[nomadictheist]

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. On this hangs all the law and the prophets."
"If you love Me, keep My commandments."
"And this is love: that we keep His commandments, and that His commandments are not burdensome."
If the law were simply "not hate," then it wouldn't have provisions such as "do not commit adultery..." You can certainly do that without "hating" someone. You can also covet without hating someone.
The law tells us how to love our neighbors. That's what Jesus said.
If we hold another standard of love, we don't truly love anyone (including ourselves).
We can keep (some) commandments without loving our neighbors, but we can't love our neighbors without keeping the commandments.

 

[Winken]

Wow! Where have I been? I could have jumped in waaaaaaaay back!

But I'll leave it alone. I think.

 

[Sophrosyne]

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. On this hangs all the law and the prophets."
"If you love Me, keep My commandments."
"And this is love: that we keep His commandments, and that His commandments are not burdensome."
If the law were simply "not hate," then it wouldn't have provisions such as "do not commit adultery..." You can certainly do that without "hating" someone. You can also covet without hating someone.
The law tells us how to love our neighbors. That's what Jesus said.
If we hold another standard of love, we don't truly love anyone (including ourselves).
We can keep (some) commandments without loving our neighbors, but we can't love our neighbors without keeping the commandments.

You can "keep" the 10 commandments while hating your brother and lusting after his wife. Jesus further commandment of love isn't part of the Law itself otherwise the Law would have had people stoned to death for lusting and hating instead of physical sex and killing.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Look at it this way.

In the old covenant people were saved by keeping the law, Jews obeying Torah and Gentiles heeding their conscience.

Wrong observance of law:

Luke 11:42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

Luke 18:11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’

The Pharisees did not obey the law. They rationalized that since the promise to Abraham was unconditional, all a person had to do to receive the promise was to be born a Jew. To distinguish themselves as Jews they followed the part of the law that identified them as Jews. They left out justice, mercy and faithfulness to be the image of God.

Obsolete observance of the law:

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Believers mixed old covenant observance with new. They heard that being loyal to Christ could save (What must I do to be saved. Believe (be loyal to Christ, not to Egypt, Caesar, the world) in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!). When they believed what they heard, acted by confessing they had sinned in serving that which was not their Creator, the one they were obliged to serve, they confessed and were accepted, baptised. They was no reason they could not be baptised, once they confessed, just as the eunuch demanded to be baptised, accepted as a member of God's family.

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


New observance of the law:

Do good works by making the tree good.


2 Timothy 2:21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

Make the tree good by hearing with faith, obeying correctly, faithful to the teaching:

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?a 4Have you experiencedb so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

The teaching, towards sanctification:

James 5:14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

John 13:"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.


1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Paul takes the effort of writing Romans 1 and 2 to explain that Jews and Gentiles are both unrighteous, the former found so by Torah and the latter by conscience. This shows us that everybody is under the covenant of the law. In fact, Paul says that if a Gentlie observed what was required by Torah, then he would receive the benefits of the Sinaitic covenant, his uncircumcision would count as circumcision! He would be protected, as one who respected the law, was a doer of the law.

Not only are all unrighteous, that there is no one righteous, not even one, everybody is in the same situation, both Jew and Gentiles.

Is the Jew having no advantage then? Of course he had. He received revelation about how God would save mankind. His job was to be an oracle, be a light to the Gentiles. Was it God's fault if they were not faithful in this task? Were they right in saying that since everybody was a transgressor, their disobedience would only highlight God's righteousness? They were wrong, and their condemnation was well deserved.

Romans 3:8And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just.

As well as being oracle bearers, salvation would come from the Jews. Even though God's promise to Abraham would only be fulfilled through the real Israel, the Israel that was the son of promise like Isaac, a product of faith, a nation not linked by blood to Abraham, but a nation consisting of both Jew and Gentile connected to Abraham by faith, the Messiah would be linked by blood to the blood line of Abraham, WOULD BE JEWISH.


John 4:2240l"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Romans 9:5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Now that we are clear that everybody, both Jew and Gentiles were under the law, one with a formal covenant, the other without, we can see that nailing the law to the Cross released both Jew and Gentiles from the law.

Those who were under the law were cursed because they could not do all of it, an impossibility, because all are tied to a body of death.

The Cross completed the covenant. This covenant tied mankind to the law. Since the contract was completed, the tie was broken, just as death breaks the tie of a wife to a husband. Their marriage contract gets broken with death, and the survivor is free to remarry without breaking any laws, without being accused of adultery.

VERY IMPORTANT

The new mankind is now free from the law, because he is the inheritor, by being in Christ, who is the first fruit, the first beneficiary of the result of the completion of the old covenant.

What does free of the law mean?

Suppose a city possesses rule of law. For your information, there are cities and nations that do not have rule of law. Communist countries do not have rule of law. Some countries have rule of law on paper but do not have the machinery to enforce the law. For all practical purposes they also do not have the rule of law.

In the city which had rule of law, the law makers enforce basic law. A subset of Law is the set of laws that regulate road use, traffic rules. Everybody must stop at a red light. Are the law makers under the rule of law? Interestingly, no. The rules were made for the law makers, the law makers were not made for the rules. The law makers made the rules so that it would serve them, give them a safe method to use the road. If they could make them they could break them. When? When observing the rules created an unsafe condition!

Suppose a nuclear warhead was found to be defective, had become dangerous and needed to be transported to a facility to be made safe. The law makers would set all the lights to red, blockade all intersections and then pass through all the red lights to move the tractor trailer carrying the warhead to the facility to be disarmed. Now you can see how, to save people, law makers can break rules. The rules were made for people, not people for the rules. This type of situation actually occurred, when US airspace was shut down during the 9/11 attacks. However, US defence craft were allowed to operate, to protect the people.

Are all who are under the law under a curse?

Yes, because all are tied to a body of death.

Does this mean that everybody under Law went to Hell?

Those who failed to obey the law were destined for Hell.

However, those who cried out to God for mercy were under the guardianship , the protection, of the law, until Christ released them from the grave.

Obviously only those who tried to follow the law knew they were failures. Like the publican in the temple. The Pharisee replaced the law with a few rules that differentiated him from Gentiles. He never failed, he never asked for mercy, he never did ALL the Law. He was definitely not justified, found righteous.

You can see that there are two categories of people:

People who respect the law, are doers of the law, who are justified, Gentiles who heeded their conscience and Jews who followed both lighter and weightier requirements of the law (the publican in the Temple)

People who respected themselves, felt entitled to special treatment, because they possessed the law, were children of Abraham (the Pharisee in the Temple).

Man is under a curse because he is tied to the flesh AND because he knows good from evil, is culpable. Paul realised he needed help to save him from the body of death.


The writers of Scripture used flowery speech because they did not have the technical vocabulary we have today. Sometimes they used the same word to mean different things. Sarx, the flesh is used to mean:

the sinful nature , as in "The deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these" (Galatians 5:19-21),

or human effort: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Galatia 3:3.

Similarly, death can also mean different things in Scripture.

These are the states man is found in:

Incompetent spiritually incompetent bodily.

Competent spiritually and incompetent bodily.

Competent spiritually and competent bodily.

Adam was incompetent spiritually and bodily. He was like the minor who could not be prosecuted under criminal law because he was underage. In other words, not culpable. By gaining knowledge of good and evil, he became competent spiritually. We are his descendants. Christ put to death the deeds of the body through learning obedience and became competent bodily.

Why did God create man? To nurture living beings whom He could love and be loved in return. That by the way is why men have families. Families are like gardens. The few good trees make up for the majority of the trees that sometimes don't bear fruit. How did God plant, nurture, prune and wait for His garden to bear fruit?

Remember how you learned to drive. An adult drove you to a large empty parking lot and put you into the driver's seat. You wandered all over the lot, doing things that would have got you a zillion tickets. Finally, you learned how to control the car and were able to move from point A to point B, at the right speed and along the path you set out for yourself. Now you are taught the traffic rules and let out on a quiet public road. As you drive along, you are told what rules you remembered to follow and what rules you forgot.

Just imagine if you were told what the rules were (received knowledge of good and evil) on the first day. You would have been paralyzed into a state of confusion, realised you were unequipped, naked.

Not only that, you would have not only broken a zillion rules, you would have been AWARE of them.

Did Adam break a law? Not really. Remember a minor is immune from prosecution. What Adam did was ignore a warning.

Don't touch the stove, you'll get burnt.

Don't run on the staircase, you'll fall.

When minors, or anybody, ignore warnings, they suffer the consequences. No one is immune from the laws, or principles, of physics. When a moving object meets another object, the object with the bigger mass decides the outcome!

In the case of God warning Adam he would die if he acquired knowledge of good and evil, Adam really did DIE.

He stopped growing.

Just think what would have happened to our imaginary driver in the parking lot if he was penalized for all the rules he broke. He would have his driving training stopped, killed off.

In just the same way, Adam was affected when he did the thing that removed his immunity. Without learning how to subdue the world, control his body, he was a sinner. He could no longer be in union with God. The very thing he needed to learn how to control his body. God lost His family member. Did God give up? No! He immediately set in motion a rescue plan.

Spiritually, we are all alive. We know right from wrong. We also know we have a body which we do not have the ability to control. We can only be safe by being IN Christ.

What does being born again mean?

It means we realise we need God to bring that body under control.

How do we come to that realisation?

Well, Scripture says that God put us in different places and different conditions and stirred us, so that somehow, we may seek Him out and turn to Him.

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

To those who turned to Him, He opened their minds so that they would know what their situation was.

He also revealed to them how He would rescue them:

Hebrews 11:19All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Even Joshua could not lead them into that country:

Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

However, Christ, our High Priest did the work that enabled us to be in union with God, be in His presence, by being IN Him, the real Promised Land, through the Spirit, given when He ascended on high:

http://www.frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-shadow-of-christ-in-the-law-of-moses/

Quote
In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

That Land, the new humanity, which we must enter, is present, in Christ.

Romans 7:22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

What does live mean? It means that those who are delivered from the body of death can live as God planned for man to live. To love God by setting aside his own needs to serve God.

Of course with the fall, men transgressed, building up a sin debt. So the new man in Christ can love God by setting aside his own needs and participate with Christ, share in His afflictions, to make up what remains of Christ's work, by setting aside his own needs. Men can lay down their lives, by becoming sin bearers, by being in Christ, doing what God promised, being the righteousness of God, for their fellow men, by being in Christ.


Matthew Henry commentary on 2 Corinthians 5:21

Quote
Our offended God has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ. By the inspiration of God, the Scriptures were written, which are the word of reconciliation; showing that peace has been made by the cross, and how we may be interested therein. Though God cannot lose by the quarrel, nor gain by the peace, yet he beseeches sinners to lay aside their enmity, and accept the salvation he offers. Christ knew no sin. He was made Sin; not a sinner, but Sin, a Sin-offering, a Sacrifice for sin. The end and design of all this was, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him, might be justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Can any lose, labour, or suffer too much for Him, who gave his beloved Son to be the Sacrifice for their sins, that they might be made the righteousness of God in him?

Summary

The Cross gave us immunity from the law.

The Cross gave us ability to follow the law, because the law hangs on loving God and loving our fellow man as ourselves.

 

[Elder 111]

Hello all, read this section and see what Paul says about the law written and engraved in stones, ( the ten commandments) and those who read the Old testament as well. I will let scripture speak for itself

"7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."2 Corinthians 3:7-14

even when reading Moses many are confused and blinded.

Notice the word end of the commandment, done away, abolished, a ministration of death and condemnation.

also we read about the law

"5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;' (1 Timothy 1:5-10)

and

"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Galatians 3:10-13)

The law is not of faith, consider this word.

and
no Jew or gentile has to keep the law either. As scripture says

"23 The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" acts 15:23,24

and

"...but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing" (Acts 21:24,25)

"2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:2-4)

and

"24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:24,25)

and

"4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God...6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."(Romans 7:4,6)

and

"20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" Romans 3;20,21

Non of what is quoted about states that the Ten commandments are abolished! For instance "the ministration of death" does not mean the Ten commandments but the result of breaking the ten commandments. With the death of Christ there is life offered to who repent. Do we understand that it is OK for a Christians to kill lie or steal? NO! Jesus Himself infactically declares the Ten commandments valid forever. Mat. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus further states in plain unadulterated language that we have to keep the same ten Commandments to inherit eternal life. Mat. 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Is not the above of the Ten commandments? If we then say that the same Ten commandments are abolished what are we saying of Jesus?
How do we stand in relation to Jesus in this matter? Mat. 12:30-31.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Non of what is quoted about states that the Ten commandments are abolished! For instance "the ministration of death" does not mean the Ten commandments but the result of breaking the ten commandments. With the death of Christ there is life offered to who repent. Do we understand that it is OK for a Christians to kill lie or steal? NO! Jesus Himself infactically declares the Ten commandments valid forever. Mat. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus further states in plain unadulterated language that we have to keep the same ten Commandments to inherit eternal life. Mat. 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Is not the above of the Ten commandments? If we then say that the same Ten commandments are abolished what are we saying of Jesus?
How do we stand in relation to Jesus in this matter? Mat. 12:30-31.

Wrong on many points, but first consider the "ministration of death " it is also called a ministration of condemnation"

Paul said he was "alive without the law once, but the commandment came ,sin revived and he died " that death by the law is not physical death

Also

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. "(Romans 7:5-6 KJV)

"10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. "(Romans 7: 10-11 KJV)

Notice the word death and what death he's speaking of


also, when Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments. He told him to try to do this becUse he hadn't kept any of them and broke them all and he wasn't aware of his sin. jesus was not using the law as a means for the rich young ruler to establish his own righteousness, but he used the law as a searchlight put in his heart to show him he was a sinner

And Jesus commandments to a believer are different than Moses law. Jesus would say did not Moses say, and yet I say

 

[LoveofTruth]

Non of what is quoted about states that the Ten commandments are abolished! For instance "the ministration of death" does not mean the Ten commandments but the result of breaking the ten commandments. With the death of Christ there is life offered to who repent. Do we understand that it is OK for a Christians to kill lie or steal? NO! Jesus Himself infactically declares the Ten commandments valid forever. Mat. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus further states in plain unadulterated language that we have to keep the same ten Commandments to inherit eternal life. Mat. 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Is not the above of the Ten commandments? If we then say that the same Ten commandments are abolished what are we saying of Jesus?
How do we stand in relation to Jesus in this matter? Mat. 12:30-31.

No matter how you try to avoid the clear scriptures these verses correct you

""7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration ofcondemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed inglory.10 For even that whichwas made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done awaywas glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."2 Corinthians 3:7-14

Sometimes when I share this with people they are so confused and troubled that they will even attack Paul and say , then Paul was wrong. But he was right

 

[Elder 111]

Wrong on many points, but first consider the "ministration of death " it is also called a ministration of condemnation"

Paul said he was "alive without the law once, but the commandment came ,sin revived and he died " that death by the law is not physical death

Also

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. "(Romans 7:5-6 KJV)

"10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. "(Romans 7: 10-11 KJV)

Notice the word death and what death he's speaking of


also, when Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments. He told him to try to do this becUse he hadn't kept any of them and broke them all and he wasn't aware of his sin. jesus was not using the law as a means for the rich young ruler to establish his own righteousness, but he used the law as a searchlight put in his heart to show him he was a sinner

And Jesus commandments to a believer are different than Moses law. Jesus would say did not Moses say, and yet I say

Do not confuse the issue. Moses did not act on his own, God instructed Moses. In light of the Ten commandments God wrote that Himself so Moses had no part in that, except to carry the stones. So it is God against God if Jesus is nullifying the Ten Commandments. The question was plainly asked, what must I do. The answer plainly given keep the Commandments. Jesus only asked the Rich young ruler to put his riches away and follow Him. So that what the young man was guilty of was putting money before God.

 

[Elder 111]

No matter how you try to avoid the clear scriptures these verses correct you

""7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?9 For if the ministration ofcondemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed inglory.10 For even that whichwas made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.11 For if that which is done awaywas glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."2 Corinthians 3:7-14

Sometimes when I share this with people they are so confused and troubled that they will even attack Paul and say , then Paul was wrong. But he was right

What scripture is clearer than those I quoted of Jesus and you have not addressed them directly. What is so hard about the above? It just shows that both you and others you come into contact with do not understand the text in the light of the scriptures, for one text does not interpret itself outside of all other scriptures or in opposition to the rest of the bible. One of the phrases highlighted by you is "ministration of condemnation", so how does that serve to remove the ten commandments? What the Jew could not look upon was Moses' face not the law. The light from being in the present of God. Are you telling us that a man that steals and commit adultery is not condemned in the eyes of Jesus today? Is that what you understand by what Paul says? Are you as a son of God able to commit idolatry and not stand condemn in the eyes of God? Is that your contention? Tell me plainly!

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do not confuse the issue. Moses did not act on his own, God instructed Moses. In light of the Ten commandments God wrote that Himself so Moses had no part in that, except to carry the stones. So it is God against God if Jesus is nullifying the Ten Commandments. The question was plainly asked, what must I do. The answer plainly given keep the Commandments. Jesus only asked the Rich young ruler to put his riches away and follow Him. So that what the young man was guilty of was putting money before God.

John 7:19
"Did not Moses give you the law,..."

King James Bible
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven."

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you," ( Matthew 5:21,21 KJV)

"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:28 But I say unto you,
No confusion. The law was added because of sin" ( Matthew 5:27, 28 KJV)

"31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:32 But I say unto you," ( matthew 5:31,32 KJV)

"33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:34 But I say unto you," ( Matthew 5:33,34 KJV)

Paul clearly says that the law written on stones is done away and abolished for the believer now. 2 Cor 3 needs to be answered. We cant just avoid it and go to our own arguments.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What scripture is clearer than those I quoted of Jesus and you have not addressed them directly. What is so hard about the above? It just shows that both you and others you come into contact with do not understand the text in the light of the scriptures, for one text does not interpret itself outside of all other scriptures or in opposition to the rest of the bible. One of the phrases highlighted by you is "ministration of condemnation", so how does that serve to remove the ten commandments? What the Jew could not look upon was Moses' face not the law. The light from being in the present of God. Are you telling us that a man that steals and commit adultery is not condemned in the eyes of Jesus today? Is that what you understand by what Paul says? Are you as a son of God able to commit idolatry and not stand condemn in the eyes of God? Is that your contention? Tell me plainly!

No the law can be used lawfully, but it is not made for a righteous man, but for sinners. The law is a ministration of death as Paul said often , the commandment came sin revived and I died. But believers are dead to the law, free from the law, not under the law, etc. So many misunderstand this.

When I talk to those in the error of seventh day Adventism, I show them 2 Cor 3 and they almost go in a frenzy of stress. They say things like, so are we supppse to be able to kill now or steal etc etc. No, true believers will not do any of those things as they abide in the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. They have the Spirit in their hearts and walk in love. The law is showing men that they are not in love and the law itself can never make them righteous. If there was a law that could have brought righteousness or made them righteous then Christ did not need to die. But how many today are still seeking to establish their own righteousness by following, ( as they think they can) the law written in stones and the law of Moses.

Even today the veil is on the heart when reading the OT.

Paul said the law (also referred to as the tables of stone or the ten commandments) is done away and abolished and believers are dead to the law.

The law convicts breaks condemns all who try to walk in it and when they are condemned and killed by the law they need to go to Gods provision , the sacrifice of Christ, to be justified by faith. But how many will still think they keep the law before such an act. And then some will say, "now that I have come to Christ so I still have to keep the law". The miss the point, the law has done its work to expose your sin and kill you and condemn you. Read Galatians 3-6 After the faith is come believers are no longer under the law. It is done away abolished to the righteous. Yes we can still use it in learning of Gods revelation and for many aspects of truth. But the law is not made for a righteous man. I ask any who still think they are under the law or have to try and keep it, are you righteous?. if they say yes, then the law is not made for you. Paul says words like, "the END of the law" in 1 Timothy.

But how many still desire to be teachers of the law, having no clue what they are saying and yet have many many arguments to justify doing so. I believe Paul met many such men in his day and he was troubled by them. He said i wish they were cut off that trouble you, speaking of the legalist crowd Galatians

 

[Elder 111]

John 7:19
"Did not Moses give you the law,..."

King James Bible
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven."

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:22 But I say unto you," ( Matthew 5:21,21 KJV)

"27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:28 But I say unto you,
No confusion. The law was added because of sin" ( Matthew 5:27, 28 KJV)

"31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:32 But I say unto you," ( matthew 5:31,32 KJV)

"33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:34 But I say unto you," ( Matthew 5:33,34 KJV)

Paul clearly says that the law written on stones is done away and abolished for the believer now. 2 Cor 3 needs to be answered. We cant just avoid it and go to our own arguments.

Did Moses make the law and the mana? Yes or no. Is it Ok for you to have idols against what the Ten commandments say and that you content is abolished. Yes or no.

 

[Elder 111]

No the law can be used lawfully, but it is not made for a righteous man, but for sinners. The law is a ministration of death as paul said often , the commandment came sin revived and i died. But believers are dead to the law, free from the law, not under the law, etc. So many misunderstand htis.

When I talk to those in the error of seventh day Adventism, i show them 2 Cor 3 and they almost go in a frenzy of stress. they say things like, so are we supppse to be able to kill now or steal etc etc. No, true believers will not do any of those things as they abide in the law of thre Spirit of life in Cjrist jesus. They have the Spirit in their hearts and walk in love. The law is showing men that they are not in love and the law itself can never make them righteous. If there was a law that could have brought righteousness or made them righteous then Christ did not need to die. But how many today are still seeking to establish their own righteousness by following, ( as they think they can) the law written in stones and the law of Moses.

Even today the veil is on the heart when reading the OT.

Paul said the law ( also referred to as the tables of stone or the ten commandments) is done away and abolished and believers are dead to the law.

The law convicts breaks condemns all who try to walk in it and when they are condemned and killed by the law they need to go to Gods provision , the sacrifice of Christ, to be justified by faith. But how many will still thing they keep the law before such an act. And then some will say, "now that I have come to Christ so I still have to keep the law". The miss the point, the law has done its work to expose your sin and kill you and condemn you. Read gGalatians 3-6 After the faith is come believers are no longer under the law. It is done away abolished to the righteous. Yes we can still use it in learning of Gods revelation and for many aspects of truth. But the law is not made for a righteous man. I ask any who still think they are under the law or have to try and keep it, are you righteous?. if they say yes, then the law is not made for you. Paul says words like, "the END of the law" in 1 Timothy.

But how many still desire to be teachers of the law, having no clue what they are saying and yet have many many arguments to justify doing so. I believe Paul met many such men in his day and he was troubled by them. He said i wish they were cut off that trouble you, speaking of the legalist crowd Galatians

According to you the Holy Spirit in us cause us not to do evil. But you will still contend that we are not under the obligations of the law. Not logical. The Holy Spirit leads us not to steal which is of the law, not to lie which is of the law. We will not have the Holy Spirit if we served Idols, which is of the Law. So where is the ten commandments removed from being kept?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Did Moses make the law and the mana? Yes or no. Is it Ok for you to have idols against what the Ten commandments say and that you content is abolished. Yes or no.

I know the ten commandments were written with the finger of God. But the thing is I just quoted Jesus and you have issue, take it up with Jesus.

I never said it was ok to have idols or sin or lie etc. This is where people misunderstand. Lets take a person who is not saved yet and the hear the law says not to steal or kill etc dont dont dont, but it gives them no power to not do this of themselves. The simply exposes sin and brings us to the need of faith. And the law is not of faith. The law shows us that we are not in Gods love and truth.Then when a person gets saved by grace through faith, the love of God is shed abroad in their heart and now they fulfill the whole intent of the law which was to love God and your neighbour. Love fulfills and love works no evil to his neighbour. Love covers every aspect of life and our walk, our faith works by love. But if a man in this of love in the spirit state tries to go back to the law and keep it he is not in need of it. It simply showed him that he was not in the love, it never gave any power to keep it. The law is saying love God and your neighbour, and so it points out specifics that men do that would show them they are selfish and in sin, like dont lie or covet or have idols etc. In Christ we cannot sin as we abide in Him he gives us the victory and makes us perfect unto every good work, and he does this from within. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death.

 

[LoveofTruth]

According to you the Holy Spirit in us cause us not to do evil. But you will still contend that we are not under the obligations of the law. Not logical. The Holy Spirit leads us not to steal which is of the law, not to lie which is of the law. We will not have the Holy Spirit if we served Idols, which is of the Law. So where is the ten commandments removed from being kept?

No, the law is only

According to you the Holy Spirit in us cause us not to do evil. But you will still contend that we are not under the obligations of the law. Not logical. The Holy Spirit leads us not to steal which is of the law, not to lie which is of the law. We will not have the Holy Spirit if we served Idols, which is of the Law. So where is the ten commandments removed from being kept?

able to give us the knowledge of our sin, that we are not in the spirit and not in love. But if we are in the spirit against such there is no law Galatians. If we walk in the flesh we do go under judgement again and so if a believer walks outside of faith and love and hates his brother and murders for example. The murder started in his heart and then Christ is no longer there as 1 John 3:15 or so says, and he does not have eternal life abiding in him. So he is under sin and the law can be used to expose his sin again.

But as far as law, many miss this and go even further and try to keep old testament ordinances such as tithing, feast days dietary laws, circumcision etc etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. On this hangs all the law and the prophets."
"If you love Me, keep My commandments."
"And this is love: that we keep His commandments, and that His commandments are not burdensome."
If the law were simply "not hate," then it wouldn't have provisions such as "do not commit adultery..." You can certainly do that without "hating" someone. You can also covet without hating someone.
The law tells us how to love our neighbors. That's what Jesus said.
If we hold another standard of love, we don't truly love anyone (including ourselves).
We can keep (some) commandments without loving our neighbors, but we can't love our neighbors without keeping the commandments.

No the law tells you what not to do. No man is able to love his neighbour unless he is taught by God in the love of God in his heart. God works in every believer to will and to do, and to make us perfect unto every good work

still Paul said the ten commandments are done away and abolished and a ministry of condemnation and death

believers are dead to the law, free from the law, not under the law, and the end of the law is charity out of a pure heart and faith unfeigned.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?


What did the church in Galatia do wrong? Why did they do it?

The explanation needs some background, some pre understanding.

When the believers "heard with faith" it means they heard the gospel, "Jesus Christ is Lord" and they switched loyalties, faith, from Egypt, the world, to God, Jesus. Their confession was, "I did not know what covetousness was, covetousness is only believing that the world was my provider and I followed the world, when in truth, God is my Father, and it is He who created me and provided for me and stirred me to seek Him, placing me in different places and circumstances, and prodded me, hoping I would enquire and find Him! Now that I have confessed, repented, why should I not be baptised, accepted into God's family formally?"

Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
.....

Acts 8:36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
.........

They passed through the water and the cloud, just as the children of Israel did, but into Christ, not into Moses as Israel did, and witnessed many miracles that God did to remove all the attacks that Egypt launched to bring them back into the world.

Now they faced persecution and trials as the Jews threw them out of the synagogues and confiscated their properties. Unlike the Hebrews, they were shaken (different churches reacted differently to different stages of growth):

Hebrews 12:For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.

They thought that God was angry with them and was going to exile them (God's wrath on Israel led to exile to Babylon, which is why the Jews ran to John the Baptist, so that they would be counted amongst the remnant, and be spared from God's wrath. John asked them to follow all the law, the lesser and the weightier points, the ceremonial as well as the moral, circumcision and tithing, as well as justice, mercy and faithfulness, the second without neglecting the first, which were the requirements under the old covenant).

However, persecution was not God showing His displeasure. It was God testing the believers, to see if they understood what they must do when they changed their loyalty: they had to persist in their loyally!

Was Israel not tested when she was taken out of Egypt. Did she not forget how God delivered them out of fearing for their lives and into putting their faith in God, causing them to swear loyalty to God. Yes she forgot and failed the test.

Was Abraham not tested when God showed him enough proof that He was able to save, delivering Abraham out of Abhimelek's hands, giving him a son to pass his inheritance to, and many other miracles? Did Abraham not persevere when God asked him to continue to be loyal, even offering when God asked him to sacrifice Isaac. Did God not say He had received visible proof that Abraham feared Him, held God in high regard, in awe, with respect when he lifted the knife to sacrifice Isaac? Yes he did, did continue to be faithful, and God credited it, (not imputed, not borrowed credit from Christ's account book, but actually made a genuine credit entry in Abraham's account book, a credit entry on loyalty account, loyalty paid by Abraham, not Christ!) as righteousness, an acceptable loyalty act.

Was not Christ tested, when He passed through the water and the cloud, baptism and infilling of the Holy Spirit, when He was led out of Egypt, dependence on the world into the wilderness, dependence on God, and did He not persevere, rejecting all the demands of His body to be cared for, to be nurtured, to be worried for, to be fought for, believing that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God? Yes He did!

Now church was undergoing strange trials and she did not know it was God testing her to see visible proof of their persevering in loyalty. And she was returning to Egypt! She was doing things that showed she was trusting things other than God to preserve, protect and sustain her safety!

1 Peter 4:12Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.

The believers in Galatia heard with faith, confessed and saw miraculous protection from the efforts of the world to put them back into slavery. However when persecution came, they panicked. They thought that they needed to be sanctified to be safe. They thought that hearing with faith was not working so they reverted back to world, of the law, human effort, circumcision and tithing, even keeping the requirements of justice, mercy and love. In spite of been taught that Christ work on the cross had made the old covenant obsolete. Christ had been testified as crucified, His resurrection was proof of the operationalisation of the new covenant: hearing with faith, believing that sanctification was through confessing your sins to one another, foot washing. Just as confession led to baptism, receiving grace, the gift of the Holy Spirit, towards justification, confession also led to communion, receiving grace, the gift of the Holy Spirit, towards sanctification, cleansing from all unrighteousness, to being in Christ, towards living, by the washing with the blood of the one one God had sent.

This is how faith justified, a new type justification, not to rest in Abraham's bosom, after dying, but into the body of Christ, in this life.

This is how faith, hearing with faith, sanctified too, by hearing with obedience, to walk in the light of God's holiness and agree with God about the deeds of the flesh, and submit them to Him for cleansing:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Not by works of the law, which had the lesser glory of the. Old Covenant, the guardianship, protection of the law, towards being gathered into Abraham's bosom, when this life passes, but by walking in the light, towards a greater glory, cleansing, grace, which was sufficient for Paul, towards being IN Christ, and empowering to share in His afflictions and enablement to participate in His work of sin bearer, in this life, towards a better resurrection, in the world to come.

Observing the old covenant was being prophets, oracles, of a future event. However, Christ was demonstrated, shown, taught as already crucified. Observing old covenant requirements was tantamount to saying Christ had not come, out was a future event. It was trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot, making it of no value. Christ was of no benefit to these who insisted on works of the law, human effort, flesh, towards sanctification. Having started with faith, hearing with faith, now they were trying to finish by human effort, and by human effort no one could be justified, the new justification of Grace.


Galatians 3:25But now that (the benefits of grace) faith has come, we no longer require the benefit of a body guard, the works of the law.