Jude says certain angels committed fornication...

[daydreamergurl15]

When reading this in it's context it seems to says something completely different to me...

Please read vs. 1-4, it sets these next verses up.
5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day-
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. - Jude 1:5-7​

We're assuming that "just as" means that the angels committed the same sins as Sodom and Gomorrah but when I read it, "just as" seems to flow from verse 5.

In vs. 5 we learn that Jesus saved the faithful and destroyed the unbelievers in the land of Egypt.
In vs. 6 we learned that Jesus kept the bad angels in external chains under gloomy darkness until the judgement day.
In vs. 7 we learned that Sodom and Gomorrah served as an example of punishment in eternal fires.
It seems "just as" seems to be comparable to the ungodly men that Jude speaks of in Verse 4.

Vs 8 says

Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority and speak evil of dignitaries​

I would wager to guess that:
Defile the flesh-Sodom and Gomorrah
Reject authority-angels/Egypt
Speak evil of dignitaries-angels/Egypt
Couldn't decipher which was which

I think Jude was comparing the "certain men have crept in unnoticed/dreamers" to these three events/wicked behaviors. I am not so sure that he was making a case that the angels were committing fornication.

We also have to put in perspective that in response to the lady who had 7 husbands and who will she be married to in the resurrection Jesus said

"...Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in Heaven..."--Mark 12:24-25​

Know, I understand what some will say that the angels that were punished were bad ones that didn't listen and disobeyed so they could be more than capable of "committing fornication" that is why it is connected to Sodom and Gomorrah. But that's not what Jude said. The angels punishment was "not keeping their proper domain but left their own abode". What exactly do that mean? I have NO IDEA but 2 Peter 2:4-6 reilliterate the sins of the angels and Sodom and Gomorrah but do not tie them together. It doesn't seem that fornication was the reason that the angels were thrown out of Heaven.

Now, I also understand that I am entirely human and that God's word is correct no matter what I think it may "seem". I'm just reading the Scriptures and trying to make it understandable with all the other Scriptures that I see. But in all, May God's word prevail.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jude gives us Apostolic tradition. I don't think I can go far wrong with Apostolic tradition.

By the way, the grammar is such that "in the same way as these" points to the sin held in common between the two groups. The sin is the thing that both the angels and the Sodomites, ie, "the Sodomites, in the same way as these angels, indulged in gross immmorality".

No reasoning away of the clear meaning of Jude's words in the context....

 

[BobRyan]

It is certainly true that the details Jude 1 are clear -



In Jude 1 the subject is contemporaries with Jude - apostates, corrupt individuals that had inserted themselves into the church. James compares them to the unfaithful Israel who died in the desert, to the angels which fell in heaven from the pristine estate, to the men of Sodom and Gomorrha who gave themselves over to fornication and strange flesh -- and the cities around them did the same thing as did Sodom and Gomorrha.

Jude 1

3. ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tangible]

Jude is antilegomena. Doctrine should only be based on homologoumena, and supported by antilegomena.

 

[BobRyan]

Jude is antilegomena. Doctrine should only be based on homologoumena, and supported by antilegomena.

or else you could go with 2Tim 3:16

 

[Tangible]

or else you could go with 2Tim 3:16

Which will lead to all kinds of weird ideas - the OP is a case in point. Or you can make doctrine based on Enoch.

Discerning theologians use discernment.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

....you can make doctrine based on Enoch.

Moses did.... The foundation for all the doctrines Jesus preached are laid down in Enoch the Prophet, The seventh from Adam.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Much has been made about to which groups are referred by "the same way as these". Suffice it to say, Greek unlike English is heavily inflected. Nouns, verbs and connectors all are inflected so that the subjects which are acting upon or are discussed in relation to objects are clearly delineated.

I am not a Greek scholar but I rely upon them heavily whenever there is a debate or it is otherwise not clear. In the current case the Sodomites sinned "in the same way as these" angels.

Here's one example of a commentary on the Greek of Jude for you...
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hac/view.cgi?bk=jude&ch=1

However, let me cut to the chase, so-to-speak...

I have a question for those of you who are championing that, per Jude, angels did not engage in fornication... what event in history is Jude referring to in v.6? If any of you wish to say these are angels which fell with Lucifer (according to the Christian tradition), why are they singled out from angels which were not bound and what evil angels are at work in our world today which are still free and are not bound in chains? Please elaborate upon the event in time discussed by Jude in 6...

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Seems to me that angels sometimes choose to leave the domain of heaven for various reasons, some noble and some not so noble. It isn't about fornication for angels, as they are higher minded than that. It's about power for the fallen ones. And it's about serving God for the others.

Otherwise, I've originally (mis)translated Genesis 6 regarding the nephalim. I thought it said sons of God but it really does say BNY'HALHYM which means 'sons of the gods'. The H means 'the'. God as ALHYM is written without an H before it. And Strong's concurs that it can mean gods or magistrates, but it is not God. Furthermore, the NPHLYM (nephalim) means "a feller", a bully or a tyrant. It does not necessarily mean giant, though it can mean giant. Before that, also, it says that "unholy or profaned men" began to multiply on the face of the earth. This is mistranslated in the masoretic text (which is pretty common). Unholy (or profaned) man is HCHL HADM: the unholy the men, or the unholy men. As more men from the line of Lamech and Enoch (Cain) became born, they outnumbered the holy men or sons of God.

There is a poetic symbolism here in the words BN-ALHYM and BNY-HALHYM that cannot be chance. The author is illustrating the similarities in the words of the sons of the gods and the sons of God. The line of Seth is holy (sons of God, like Noah) whereas the line of Cain is unholy. The names of the lines are very similar as well, if you study them. The sons of the gods (or tyrants) were mating with as many and all women of the unholy or profaned men they looked upon, so there were MANY children being born who were not born into the line of God's chosen people. And these children bore children who did not know God either. Even though Yahweh limited their lifespan, they produced so many children they still became evil through and through.

So the sons of the gods (magistrates or those with power, I think of warlords or some equivalent of that) saw the daughters of the profaned men, that they were good (TWB) and they TOOK wives from all those whom they chose. Then Yahweh said His Spirit would not always strives with man because of the erring of his flesh. So he made man's life become 120 years.

Of note to those whom it interests, in these first sections of Genesis the Decalogue is laid out in these stories of Genesis up until the flood, corresponding in order with Commandments 1 through 10. This section about the sons of the gods or magistrates taking the good daughters of profaned or unholy men however they chose correlates with stealing and coveting. (Cain/Abel story corresponded to killing). There is becoming a breed of unholy tyrannical men mating with daughters of unholy men who are not of God's chosen line. There is little hope for this line of humans because on both sides the men are trouble.

The giants or men of reknown could have easily referred to the huge men of the African/Egyptian nations, and possibly the Babylonians/Hittites as well.

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intent in his heart was evil all the day (coveting his neighbor, the 10th commandment), so He decided to destroy man from the face of the earth. If the NPHLYM were truly fallen angel giants, Yahweh would not have needed to destroy man as well.

There is just no reason that nephalim needs to mean a literal giant or a fallen angel. The root word NPHL does mean to fall but NPHLYM means feller, he who knocks others over. Not necessarily one who has fallen.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Okay, so don't bother to answer my question. That is one way to deal with it.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I read it as the others have already stated, that it is saying that angels who did not keep their proper domain will go to the same place as those of Sodom and Gomorrah. Not that angels participate in fornication as those in Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[SummaScriptura]

...and as I said, not even attempting to answer my question from the post before yours is certainly one way to deal with it.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Oh.

Well, the Vale of Siddim contained other cities, as were probably that referred to as 'the others like them':

I do not know why angels fall except that they are stupid. Each class of angel is different. They somehow think they will obtain something greater than what they have in Heaven, with God. I do not understand this, but, like Eve, they coveted with their eyes and desire was born. And once desire overtakes you, it is almost impossible to stop. They live through humans, sometimes even possessing them as they become overtaken in and by this world. The more they become one with a human, the more they can feel through the human, and experience what the human experiences. They themselves cannot act in their own being because they are angels, not humans. If of evil intent, as with a fallen angel, the overtaking is detrimental to the host but at the same time defiles the host so that the host thinks he is the one in charge, and the one to blame. Angels can remain completely silent in their host. This is just part of the devastation that a corrupt fallen angel can cause. As he takes possession of the body, he does whatever his specialty is. He is not a demon per se because his goal is to live more symbiotically with his host. He still believes he deserves to do what he is doing, and that he is helping his host in some way, though he is not. Demons know they are bad and try to hide it. Fallen angels do not always believe they are bad. They can be very-super-humanly-smart; and do things others cannot do. They are beyond fornication, though they might enjoy the side effects of it in the host.

These are just my insights. I could be wrong. ~s

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Much has been made about to which groups are referred by "the same way as these". Suffice it to say, Greek unlike English is heavily inflected. Nouns, verbs and connectors all are inflected so that the subjects which are acting upon or are discussed in relation to objects are clearly delineated.

I am not a Greek scholar but I rely upon them heavily whenever there is a debate or it is otherwise not clear. In the current case the Sodomites sinned "in the same way as these" angels.

Here's one example of a commentary on the Greek of Jude for you...
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hac/view.cgi?bk=jude&ch=1

However, let me cut to the chase, so-to-speak...

I have a question for those of you who are championing that, per Jude, angels did not engage in fornication... what event in history is Jude referring to in v.6? If any of you wish to say these are angels which fell with Lucifer (according to the Christian tradition), why are they singled out from angels which were not bound and what evil angels are at work in our world today which are still free and are not bound in chains? Please elaborate upon the event in time discussed by Jude in 6...

Your thread....those who post should answer you...

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The "two groups" are Sodom and Gomorrah (the first group) and "the cities around them" the second group.

An interpretation only plausible if reading a certain less used translation of the Bible.

Matt 22 - Christ said angels do not have the design/function of forming families - they don't marry each other -- let alone other species.

Read Jesus' words a little more closely. He spoke of angels in heaven, but we are discussing fallen angels. The fact the Jesus qualified the angels he spoke of implies a difference between angels in heaven and Satan's fallen "angels".

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

There is no "Angels commit fornication" or "Angels marry people" in all of scripture.

Depends on how one explains a race of giants that are mentioned in multiple scriptures. The Nephilim and later giants exemplified wickedness in the world that needed to be wiped out. They were not godly people. The Sethite explanation for Nephilim is quite lacking.

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68250052, member: 235244"]The "two groups" are Sodom and Gomorrah (the first group) and "the cities around them" the second group.

Matt 22 - Christ said angels do not have the design/function of forming families - they don't marry each other -- let alone other species.

(While Enoch would be a great source - the book of Enoch is of very very recent origin as compared to "Enoch the 7th from Adam". Thus even the Jews do not include that pseudepigraphal book in their Canon. I

It does not even make the cut for the apocrypha by Jerome's standard.)

In the actual Bible - there is no "Angels commit fornication" or "Angels marry people" in all of scripture.

In Jude 1 the subject is contemporaries with Jude - apostates, corrupt individuals that had inserted themselves into the church. James compares them to the unfaithful Israel who died in the desert, to the angels which fell in heaven from the pristine estate, to the men of Sodom and Gomorrha who gave themselves over to fornication and strange flesh -- and the cities around them did the same thing as did Sodom and Gomorrha.

Jude 1 (NASB)

3. ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.[/QUOTE]

Some have suggested that the NASB is not to be trusted for accuracy - I don't think that idea is generally accepted.

 

[BobRyan]

An interpretation only plausible if reading a certain less used translation of the Bible.


Read Jesus' words a little more closely. He spoke of angels in heaven, but we are discussing fallen angels. The fact the Jesus qualified the angels he spoke of implies a difference between angels in heaven and Satan's fallen "angels".

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Fallen angels do not have a "different design" they are fallen from being "Angels in heaven" and in so doing they did not "Give themselves DNA and the ability to mate with themselves much less other species".

Depends on how one explains a race of giants that are mentioned in multiple scriptures. The Nephilim and later giants exemplified wickedness in the world that needed to be wiped out. They were not godly people. The Sethite explanation for Nephilim is quite lacking.

Sethite works great for "sons of God" as John 1 points out.

And Gen 6 says that the giants - the Nephilim were on earth BEFORE the sons of Seth began to intermarry with the descendents of Cain.

And of course when Noah got off the boat - he was himself Nephilim which explains who the Nephilim in Deut 2 were still hanging around centuries after the flood.

"Nephilim" does not mean "wicked" in the Bible. It means giant.

in Christ,
Bob

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Enoch wrote down what the Great Glory in heaven [the son of Man/God the Word] said about angels in heaven not marrying nor giving in marriage. Jesus confirmed what Enoch wrote as truth.
Nephal is Hebrew from to fall.
Angels on earth who appear as men eat, drink, walk, talk, speak, and the wicked men of Sodom wanted to rape angels who were in Lot's house.
Fallen angels in the days of Jared, Enoch's father, and up to the flood, in the days of Enoch's great grandson, Noah, committed all manner of unlawful wicked perverse sexual acts.
At the time of the flood, they were chained in Sheol below, held under darkness, to await their doom and as a warning to other angels to not do the same. Other angels did, as Moses wrote and as the Bible tells us, and giants were born after the flood who filled the land of Canaan for one, with giant cities and megaliths which lay in ruins even today, in the valley of the "Rapha" -the dead, the giants.
The rapha are the dead, they [their unlawfully got bodies of flesh] will not rise.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=26&v=14&t=KJV#s=t_conc_705014
Rapha are "ghosts of the dead, shades, spirits" whose bodies will not rise, as Enoch wrote they would not, for they got them unlawfully by wicked perverse fornication, as God spoke to Enoch when Enoch was given their doom to write.

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased[/ghosts], they[/their bodies] shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Dead -- they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.

 

[fatherjimparker]

Jude 1:6-7, 6"And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.” (NASB)

Take a look at how most Bibles translate Jude 1:7. After speaking of the angels who sinned in verse 6, Jude connects and transitions to the sin of the Sodomites.

What Jude did was to give several examples of groups of people (and angels) who were punished for their acts. The examples are fallen angels, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Jews. They are, I believe, given in warning about people described in verse 4. Believers should avoid them and avoid the punishment experienced by the angels, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Jews.

Jude 1:4 For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I don't agree with the Pulpit commentary's conclusion. It is not necessary to connect the examples so specifically. All of them failed to obey the Lord and brought others down with them in punishment.

Just my 2 kopecks

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Fallen angels do not have a "different design" they are fallen from being "Angels in heaven" and in so doing they did not "Give themselves DNA and the ability to mate with themselves much less other species".

You fail to acknowledge what others have previously noted in this thread, is that scripture does confirm the ability for the spiritual/angels to materialize physically as men. Further we have the most obvious example in scripture of the spiritual conceiving in a woman with the Holy Spirit conceived in Marry.

Sethite works great for "sons of God" as John 1 points out.

And Gen 6 says that the giants - the Nephilim were on earth BEFORE the sons of Seth began to intermarry with the descendents of Cain.

And of course when Noah got off the boat - he was himself Nephilim which explains who the Nephilim in Deut 2 were still hanging around centuries after the flood.

"Nephilim" does not mean "wicked" in the Bible. It means giant.

Gen 6 says nothing about the sons of Seth and descendants of Cain.
It does not say Noah was Nephilim.

Gen 6:1-7 describes the wickedness of the time, including the Nephilim. Nephilim has two parts, both fallen and giants. The wickedness is inferred with being placed in the description of wickedness of the time and fallen as in separation from God. Scripture separates the description of righteous Noah from the earlier description of the Nephilim and wickedness. Verse 8 clearly delineates this transition starting the sentence with the word but.

8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.