[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[A New Dawn]

Dawn, did I say all that? Am I a novice at MSC?
Christians are complaining that we are calling non-Christians Christians.

Yes. Yes you did say it. This is what you said here.

And just couple of days before we had an MSC call when person was flagged when she called someone non-Christian who was Unorthodox, LDS I think.

Some person was "flagged" (and not knowing the current CF vernacular I can only assume you mean she was warned) for name calling (calling someone who self-identifies as Christian a non-Christian (a rule violation)). So you changed the rules to allow name calling. And I shouldn't have to tell you what will happen now that you have given permission to people to name call. They will, and they will do it with all the power of CF behind them. THIS was why that rule was placed in the first place. To stop the flaming.

Yes, it is a teaching moment for a new believer when we call LDS and JWs set of beliefs non-Christian.

When new believers see that CF call LDS and JW Christian, yes, it is confusing. And they would certainly keep in back of their mind it is an OK place to be, since CF identifies them Christian.

I'm sorry, you have completely blown my mind with how wrong this is. Maybe you need to understand what is meant by a heart issue before you start teaching people the wrong things. Sorry, but it needs to be said for a site advisor to not understand what a heart issue is so they can defend the site's purpose and rules instead of having to change them.

And CF never said that they consider LDS and JW Christian. They identified them as people who self-identify as Christian but hold unorthodox beliefs.

 

[Edial]

Yes. Yes you did say it. This is what you said here.Some person was "flagged" (and not knowing the current CF vernacular I can only assume you mean she was warned) for name calling (calling someone who self-identifies as Christian a non-Christian (a rule violation)). So you changed the rules to allow name calling. And I shouldn't have to tell you what will happen now that you have given permission to people to name call. They will, and they will do it with all the power of CF behind them. THIS was why that rule was placed in the first place. To stop the flaming.



I'm sorry, you have completely blown my mind with how wrong this is. Maybe you need to understand what is meant by a heart issue before you start teaching people the wrong things. Sorry, but it needs to be said for a site advisor to not understand what a heart issue is so they can defend the site's purpose and rules instead of having to change them.

And CF never said that they consider LDS and JW Christian. They identified them as people who self-identify as Christian but hold unorthodox beliefs.

But why are you saying I do not get what the heart issue is?
Didn't I say that we judge the sets of beliefs to be non-Christian?
If an individual willingly takes up an LDS icon, s/he is confessing they accept the Mormon set of beliefs.

We are not judging anyone's heart. We are going by what people confess with their own words or actions.

It is impossible for you not to see that.

 

[skylark1]

I don't know if this suggestion would satisfy anyone, but I wanted to offer it.

What if there was a forum within the Ministry section that was for LDS, JWs, and any other group that identifies as Christian, but CF does not consider to be Christian? If it was called unorthodox Christian groups, it would be evident that these beliefs are not accepted by CF, that they are not allowed to post in the "Christian only Forums", and by placing the forum in the Ministry section it would be evident that CF's view is that ministry is needed for these groups; that they are outside of accepted Chrisitiany. Yet at the same time it would not be saying that one who considers theirself a Christian cannot call himself/herself one.

I take exception to the idea of if someone has confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is Lord, judging them as not a Christian. I have no problem with discussing and labeling doctrine as unbliblical or false.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I take exception to the idea of if someone has confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is Lord, judging them as not a Christian. I have no problem with discussing and labeling doctrine as unbliblical or false.

I think the problem is these groups do not truly believe that by confessing Jesus is Lord and believing in their heart makes them "Christian". These people from these groups will come to your front door and knock on it and if you say what you have said and say you are a Christian they will try and convince you that you need to "do as they do" and become one of them. In other words they don't accept your idea of "Christian" to begin with. I have personally told JWs and Mormons at my door I was a Christian and instead of accepting me and being thankful they either wanted me to read their pamplets or tried to convince me that I needed to be "more". In other words it was like I was a substandard version of Christian or NOT one in their minds to begin with.

 

[skylark1]

I think the problem is these groups do not truly believe that by confessing Jesus is Lord and believing in their heart makes them "Christian". These people from these groups will come to your front door and knock on it and if you say what you have said and say you are a Christian they will try and convince you that you need to "do as they do" and become one of them. In other words they don't accept your idea of "Christian" to begin with. I have personally told JWs and Mormons at my door I was a Christian and instead of accepting me and being thankful they either wanted me to read their pamplets or tried to convince me that I needed to be "more". In other words it was like I was a substandard version of Christian or NOT one in their minds to begin with.

I don't know much about JW. While Mormons do believe that their church is the true church, it is also true that they do not deny that other groups are Christian.

I would like to add that before one is baptized in the LDS Church, they are asked a set of questions. The first is: Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

 

[Sophrosyne]

I don't know much about JW. While Mormons do believe that their church is the true church, it is also true that they do not deny that other groups are Christian.

When you purposely evangelize people who identify themselves as Christian you are denying them as such. Anyway this thread isn't about debating so I'm stepping aside now. I agree with the staff here in that their theology isn't Christian. I contend that there are "Christians" within their groups but these people are saved in spite of their theology not because of it.

 

[Edial]

I don't know if this suggestion would satisfy anyone, but I wanted to offer it.

What if there was a forum within the Ministry section that was for LDS, JWs, and any other group that identifies as Christian, but CF does not consider to be Christian? If it was called unorthodox Christian groups, it would be evident that these beliefs are not accepted by CF, that they are not allowed to post in the "Christian only Forums", and by placing the forum in the Ministry section it would be evident that CF's view is that ministry is needed for these groups; that they are outside of accepted Chrisitiany. Yet at the same time it would not be saying that one who considers theirself a Christian cannot call himself/herself one.

But you may call yourself anything you want. That in itself is not a violation. We have Buddhists who call themselves Christian.
However, others may call your faith group a non-Christian and that would no longer be in violation of CF rules.

I take exception to the idea of if someone has confessed with their mouth and believed in their heart that Jesus is Lord, judging them as not a Christian. I have no problem with discussing and labeling doctrine as unbliblical or false.

Judging anyone is not a good idea.

LDS and JW have a wrong identity of Jesus. Wrong doctrine. They have someone who pretends to be Jesus of the Bible.

If anyone put his faith in another Jesus he would certainly not be saved. It is a Biblical fact.
Believing in another Jesus cannot save anyone regardless of the fact if they confessed that individual as Lord. You do understand that. Only Jesus and God of the Bible can save.

I can say with full assurance, putting one's faith even in an "identical twin" of Jesus is still putting one's faith in someone else.

However, we are not claiming to know other peoples' hearts.

 

[Meta Tron]

I don't know if this suggestion would satisfy anyone, but I wanted to offer it.

What if there was a forum within the Ministry section that was for LDS, JWs, and any other group that identifies as Christian, but CF does not consider to be Christian? If it was called unorthodox Christian groups, it would be evident that these beliefs are not accepted by CF, that they are not allowed to post in the "Christian only Forums", and by placing the forum in the Ministry section it would be evident that CF's view is that ministry is needed for these groups; that they are outside of accepted Chrisitiany. Yet at the same time it would not be saying that one who considers theirself a Christian cannot call himself/herself one.

I made that (or a similar) argument at some length in Member Service Center during the last UDD kerfuffle to no avail.

 

[skylark1]

But you may call yourself anything you want.

I am an orthodox Nicene affirming Christian. What I call myself is not the issue in this discussion. I have made no claim to be anything other than that.

That in itself is not a violation. We have Buddhists who call themselves Christian.
However, others may call your faith group a non-Christian and that would no longer be in violation of CF rules.

Are you saying that others may call orthodox Nicene affirming Christians non-Christians and they will no longer be in violation of the CF rules?

 

[Edial]

Joseph Smith clearly called anyone outside of his doctrine wrong.
Christian creeds are called an abomination and that the HEARTS of Nicene Christians are far from God.

So it really is improper for LDS to complain they are not called Christians by the very Christians they say are not Christians.
============================================
Originally Posted by First Vision

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.


19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
​

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng


LDS summary: What is the First Vision? | Mormon.org

Joseph was told to join none of the churches that existed at that time as the priesthood authority and Church as Jesus Christ had organized it when He was on the earth had been lost over the centuries. Joseph Smith’s First Vision marked the beginning of the Restoration of Jesus Christ’s Church to the earth.
​

 

[abysmul]

When you purposely evangelize people who identify themselves as Christian you are denying them as such. Anyway this thread isn't about debating so I'm stepping aside now. I agree with the staff here in that their theology isn't Christian. I contend that there are "Christians" within their groups but these people are saved in spite of their theology not because of it.

Tell that to multiple Baptist congregations that go door to door in our city, doing just that, and more frequently that any other denomination.

 

[Edial]

...

Are you saying that others may call orthodox Nicene affirming Christians non-Christians and they will no longer be in violation of the CF rules?

I am saying if someone chooses a non-Christian faith group or icon and calls himself a Christian, it is no longer a rule violation to call them non-Christian.

 

[skylark1]

I am saying if someone chooses a non-Christian faith group or icon and calls himself a Christian, it is no longer a rule violation to call them non-Christian.

Thank you.

I was not sure who you were referring to when you replied to me, "you may call yourself anything you want," and "others may call your faith group a non-Christian and that would no longer be in violation of CF rules."

 

[Sophrosyne]

Tell that to multiple Baptist congregations that go door to door in our city, doing just that, and more frequently that any other denomination.

Do you identify yourself as a Christian as discussed here and what response do you get?

 

[skylark1]

Joseph Smith clearly called anyone outside of his doctrine wrong.
Christian creeds are called an abomination and that the HEARTS of Nicene Christians are far from God.

So it really is improper for LDS to complain they are not called Christians by the very Christians they say are not Christians.

LDS still call Christians outside of their church Christians, even if they do not believe that their churches and/or doctrine is correct.

I think that what Dawn and I (both non-LDS) took issue with is CF not even recognizing that these groups consider themselves to be Christian.

 

[abysmul]

Do you identify yourself as a Christian as discussed here and what response do you get?

I do identify as a Christian, and because I do not attend their Baptist congregation, I'm in danger of eternal torment, and that the sure way to secure my eternal salvation is to come and be re-baptized into their congregation.

There are at least 3 different Baptist congregations locally that do this.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I do identify as a Christian, and because I do not attend their Baptist congregation, I'm in danger of eternal torment, and that the sure way to secure my eternal salvation is to come and be re-baptized into their congregation.

There are at least 3 different Baptist congregations locally that do this.

Then they are rejecting you as a Christian just as the LDS do. There theology is in error in a similar fashion to the LDS theology requiring works for salvation. If one believes their salvation is taken away because they aren't baptised then they believe that (in part) baptism saves you.

 

[Theway]

But I did not quote someone who is outside your faith.
I quoted the very prophets and founders of your faith.
They believe God is an exalted man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea... He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth. Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder
Ensign, April 1971, p.13-14

Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is. Orson Hyde - Mormon apostle
Journal of Discourses 1:123

He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. Brigham Young - Mormon prophet
Journal of Discourses 7:333


God is a natural man... Where did he get his knowledge from? From his Father, just as we get knowledge from our earthly parents. Heber C. Kimball - First Presidency Counselor
Journal of Discourses 8:211

And what I said was within our faith.

See... Here's the problem with most Critics of our church. Instead of quoting our actual doctrines which are listed in our Standard Works, you guys rely instead on third-hand, out of context, non doctrinal sources. The only quote that even comes close is from the Ensign, but even then you left out the disclaimer...

This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pages 302–17. That volume notes: “This was not a stenographic report, but a carefully and skillfully prepared one made by these men who were trained in reporting and taking notes. Evidently, there are some imperfections in the report and some thoughts expressed by the Prophet which were not fully rounded out and made complete.

Or even the qualifier from the same speech by Joseph Smith...

....and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

Now I'm not saying I disagree with anything which was stated, after all by your doctrine is the Christ you worship not God, and did He not become fully man, died, and then having been exalted was resurrected with an eternally incarnate, never to be separated from, body of flesh and bones?

I mean, do you really what me to judge your faith and beliefs on the opinions of the Early Church Fathers, the Early Protestant Fathers, modern Christian Church leaders, or even the opinions of the Apostles had stated?

Which begs the question.....
Did you come up with these quotes before or after you made your decision?

 

[abysmul]

Then they are rejecting you as a Christian just as the LDS do. There theology is in error in a similar fashion to the LDS theology requiring works for salvation. If one believes their salvation is taken away because they aren't baptised then they believe that (in part) baptism saves you.

They believe baptism in THEIR church only, saves you.

 

[Theway]

Then they are rejecting you as a Christian just as the LDS do. There theology is in error in a similar fashion to the LDS theology requiring works for salvation. If one believes their salvation is taken away because they aren't baptised then they believe that (in part) baptism saves you.

No.... Sorry.. The Mormons do not reject others as not being Christian... That's your guy's thing.