The Lord's day.

[LarryP2]

Let me add one more comment: I don't tolerate the Mormon advertisements that have plagued the forum's site for days (weeks?), but apparently the administration of the site does. Chew on that revelation for a while.

In reality, Adventist tritheism is closer to Mormonism than Christianity. Adventism was outright and horrifyingly Arian for about the first 60 years of its life. The following quotes are taken from an Adventist theological journal:

"Until near the turn of the twentieth century, Seventh-day Adventist literature was almost unanimous in opposing the eternal deity of Jesus and the personhood of the Holy Spirit. During the earlier years some even held the view that Christ was a created being."
......
"Two of the principal founders of the Seventh-day Adventist church, Joseph Bates and James White, like Himes, had been members of the Christian Connection and rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Joseph Bates wrote of his views, “Respecting the trinity, I concluded that it was an impossibility for me to believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, was also the Almighty God.”
.....
"Uriah Smith, long time editor of the Review and Herald, believed during the 1860s that Jesus was a created being. He was “the first created being, dating his existence far back before any other created being or
thing, next to the self-existent and eternal God.”
http://www.atsjats.org/publication_file.php?pub_id=240

Even Adventism's present Tri-theism is obviously grudging: They moved just enough to get Walter Martin off their back.

Did Adventist leadership lie to Walter Martin?

"The definition of "lie" is to tell an untruth with the intent to deceive. Included in the definition is the act of not telling the whole truth, or telling partial truths with the intent to mislead. Given this definition of "lie," the simple answer to the question must be a clear "Yes, Adventist leadership lied to Walter Martin."
.....
"Walter Martin stated the facts himself on the John Ankerberg Show in 1985. It's now time to admit that the Adventists did not tell Martin, Barnhouse, and their evangelical colleagues the truth. It's time to set the record straight."
......
Regarding the direction the Adventist Church was taking in the 1970s and 1980s, Walter Martin said: "I fear that if they continue to progress at this rate, that the classification of a cult can't possibly miss being re-applied to Seventh Day [sic] Adventism."
....
"When meeting with Martin they had the chance to come clean about their anti-trinitarianism, multi-phase atonement, identification of "Sunday worship" with the mark of the beast, Sabbath requirement, prophetess Ellen White, and many other unbiblical beliefs. They instead chose to rework the wording of their positions to appear acceptable to evangelical Christians."
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2010/3/waltermartin.html


Ellen White, the founding Prophet, NEVER denounced the unanimous heretical Arian beliefs of the vast majority of Adventism's founders. That is precisely why the Sabbath on these pages is elevated FAR FAR beyond the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and the Resurrection COMBINED. Adventism's all-too-human non-God Jesus needs our perfect Sabbath-Keeping to give him a razor-thin edge in the "Heavenly Courtroom" dual between he and Satan. Christ is our bumbling, good natured, but incompetent "Defense Attorney" and our Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism is just the slight "edge" that he needs. However, Satan is a slick, better prepared, smarter and more aggressive "prosecuting attorney" who is always two or three moves ahead of the bumbling Jesus. God throws Jesus "a bone" once in awhile out of pity - the Cross was a real bummer that didn't accomplish a whole lot given all the suffering - and "walks" one of us occasionally. It's pretty easy to find yourself back in the Courtroom in the Defendant's chair if you slip up and eat a Big Mac or swim instead of wade on a hot Sabbath day.

If it looks like a cult, smells like a cult, and walks like a cult.......

 

[Elder 111]

Originally Posted by Elder 111

What rest did God rest?
​

You admitted that Hebrews 4:10 has no relevance to the periodic Sabbath. Beyond that, your rhetorical question admits that you have no idea what God's rest is.

Is there some kind of problem with you and the others? Do you always have do things like this? Is it purposely done or is there some king of a mental problem?
I asked a question where does this admit thing come from? Can you answer the question?

 

[Elder 111]

Are you saying that its not true and I 've made up a story? Walter Martin discusses the SDA movement in the cult section of his book. I've yet to see any one refute that or those facts.

Mind you, to be called a cult is fine, after all Jesus was called a devil.

 

[LarryP2]

Mind you, to be called a cult is fine.....

Do you have some scriptural support for that?

 

[VictorC]

Is there some kind of problem with you and the others? Do you always have do things like this? Is it purposely done or is there some king of a mental problem?
I asked a question where does this admit thing come from? Can you answer the question?

You're expected to understand the content of your own posts. You simply can't feign ignorance, which does nothing more than reenforce the conclusion that you know nothing about God's rest that remained a promise yet to be attained during the Law's tenure.

 

[Elder 111]

And there still isn't. An SDA who I've had personal interaction with tried to convince me that Jesus is merely another of the prophets and in His sojourn on this planet wasn't in fact God (incarnate or otherwise). IOW what they were really saying is Mary is the Mother of God to a man who wasn't God but became God. What a bunch of hughey.

This idea has nothing to do with Adventism and I think you know that.

 

[LarryP2]

And there still isn't. An SDA who I've had personal interaction with tried to convince me that Jesus is merely another of the prophets and in His sojourn on this planet wasn't in fact God (incarnate or otherwise). IOW what they were really saying is Mary is the Mother of God to a man who wasn't God but became God. What a bunch of hughey.

This idea has nothing to do with Adventism and I think you know that.

Adventism's idea of Jesus is dependent on how dangerously-close they are to be classified as a cult. Anyone reading the first 60 years of Adventism's extreme heretical Arian doctrine could easily conclude that the shaggy and bumbling human Jesus, a mere created being (and a not particularly-competent human at that) according to Adventist Founders' Statements, was just the last in a long line of Old Testament Prophets. Time after Time, Ellen White writes of Angels pulling Jesus's chestnuts out of the fire, same as Old Testament Prophets.

For Adventists, Jesus was a nice, but incompetent guy, sort of a forerunner to the 60's hippy movement, complete with the long hair, beard, sandals and vegetarianism. His job was to provide a good example for us, so that we can work out our Salvation through perfect Sabbath Keeping.

Basically, about all Christ accomplished, according to Adventists, was to restore the Sabbath to its rightful perfection and preeminence, given that Angels resurrected him after that bummer deal on the Cross. The "perfect Sabbath" that obsessed a long line of Old Testament Prophets.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Mind you, to be called a cult is fine, after all Jesus was called a devil.

And you are not Jesus.....Sinless perfection.

 

[Elder 111]

ELDER 111:

What say YOU to the charges filed against the SDA?? AGREE?? or DISAGREE??

Was Jesus Christ GOD Himself in the flesh as John 1:1 and 14 indicate??

THAT is a good start there.

How come you want to go with scripture now? You have already deny it as our only authority. All My Adventist life I have known the church to hold Jesus as exactly and very God. i have repeated over and over again that He is the Creator. It clearly demonstrates that you are not really interested nor are you searching for truth. Just want to make Adventist look bad. I assure you that you will succeed with the majority, it has already been foretold by Jesus Himself. Few will find and accept the truth.

 

[Elder 111]

You're expected to understand the content of your own posts. You simply can't feign ignorance, which does nothing more than reenforce the conclusion that you know nothing about God's rest that remained a promise yet to be attained during the Law's tenure.

A promise! Hebrews 4 :10 is about a promise? Why can't you say what you believe?

 

[LarryP2]

Few will find and accept the truth.

Which Adventist Jesus "truth" are you describing?

- The outright heretical Arian Jesus that all of the Adventist Founders propagated for the first 60 years, with no outcry from Ellen White?

- The Jesus that Adventists grudgingly-added some Divine characteristics to from around 1900 to 1955?

- Or the present "enhanced" Jesus that has existed since 1955? (who was quickly conjured up to get Walter Martin to call off the dogs) A slightly Divine Jesus that is part of a Pantheistic Trio of Divines. A Jesus who is an enhanced, hippy-looking, shaggy Angel that acts as God's heavenly Defense Attorney against Satan: the slick-haired, California-blow-dried, smarter, better prepared and more aggressive Prosecuting Attorney? The bumbling and weak-tea Jesus that desperately needs our perfect Sabbath Keeping and Vegetarianism to give him a paper-thin margin over his Superior Opponent?

Which one are you referring to?

 

[VictorC]

You're expected to understand the content of your own posts. You simply can't feign ignorance, which does nothing more than reenforce the conclusion that you know nothing about God's rest that remained a promise yet to be attained during the Law's tenure.

A promise! Hebrews 4 :10 is about a promise? Why can't you say what you believe?

Please allow me to translate Elder111's post for the benefit of the lurker.

Because Elder111 has reduced the Biblical epistles to sound bites, he doesn't recognize my allusion nearly verbatim to Hebrews 4:1. Context doesn't matter to those reliant on sound bites, because the context those sound bites are found in destroy any attempt to force their theology into passages of Scripture that doesn't support their view.

It translates to an admission they don't accept Scripture.

Anyway, Elder111 didn't recognize the promise of God's rest that remained a promise the Sabbath didn't provide.
I also quoted Hebrews 4:8, and Elder111 missed its reference to "another day" promised by God, speaking through David.
Hebrews 4:10 is a part of the narrative describing:

• a promise remains of entering His rest (v.1)
• that rest (v.3)
• My rest (v.3)
• God rested (v.4)
• My rest (v.5)
• therefore it remains that some must enter it (v.4:6)
• He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today" (v.7)
• another day (v.8)
• There remains therefore a rest (v.9)
• His rest (v.10)
• that rest (v.11)

All of this builds on the previous chapter referencing the provocation, and in both chapters quotes Psalm 95 that also references the provocation recorded in Numbers 14. Verse 4:4 quotes Genesis 2:2 to show the origin of God's rest, "that rest" that remained a promise the Sabbath didn't provide - which the people present at the provocation already had, and v.4:6 even mentions they didn't didn't enter God's rest.

That's what the narrative says.
That's what I accept at face value: God's rest originated thousands of years before the first Sabbath did, and remains a promise that "we who have believed do enter that rest" (v:4:3).
God's disposition of those rejecting God's rest in order to 'force' the Sabbath into the text, ordained in the first covenant of which "He takes away the first that He may establish the second" (v.10:9), is clear.

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”​

This is the result of unbelief, rebellion, and reducing God's Word to sound bites.

 

[from scratch]

Mind you, to be called a cult is fine, after all Jesus was called a devil.

There's a slight difference most miss. I make no accusation.

I'd like to know why you're going after me like this for responding to someone else's post.

No I won't change my position.

 

[VictorC]

And you are not Jesus.....Sinless perfection.

You didn't know that Adventist soteriology advocates sinless perfection in the flesh, did you?

Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214).

To every one who surrenders fully to God is given the privilege of living without sin, in obedience to the law of heaven. God requires of us perfect obedience. We are to purify ourselves, even as he is pure. By keeping his commandments, we are to reveal our love for the Supreme Ruler of the universe. (Review and Herald, September 27, 1906).

God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance to evil, the Saviour showed that through cooperation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory. (Acts of the Apostles, p. 531)

The righteousness of God is absolute. This righteousness characterizes all His works, all His laws. As He is, so must His people be. (1 Selected Messages, p. 198)
​

Sinless perfection is requisite to Adventist eschatology as well:

In the last generation God gives the final demonstration that men can keep the law of God and that they can live without sinning. God leaves nothing undone to make the demonstration complete. The only limitation He puts on Satan is that he may not kill the saints of God. He may tempt them, he may harass and threaten them; and he does his best. But he fails. He cannot make them sin. They stand the test, and God puts His seal on them. Through the last generation of saints God stands fully vindicated. (M.L. Andreasen The Sanctuary Service, Review and Herald, 1969 printing, pp. 318-19)​

God's promise to His redeemed and adopted children eludes those advocating this view, as well as the implied reason He gave us this promise:

“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”​

The Adventist mission statement is to 'vindicate' the old covenant, hence vindicating God and showing Him there wasn't any need for a new covenant.

Christianity has an altogether different mission:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.​

In case it isn't obvious, the verb "am" is in the present tense. God and the Biblical authors He inspired know our human nature with no need to pretend it isn't there.

 

[from scratch]

This idea has nothing to do with Adventism and I think you know that.

Seeing that's my personal experience in the real world, I'd say it absolutely does.

 

[from scratch]

How come you want to go with scripture now? You have already deny it as our only authority. All My Adventist life I have known the church to hold Jesus as exactly and very God. i have repeated over and over again that He is the Creator. It clearly demonstrates that you are not really interested nor are you searching for truth. Just want to make Adventist look bad. I assure you that you will succeed with the majority, it has already been foretold by Jesus Himself. Few will find and accept the truth.

I suggest you read Rev 4 and 5. He Who sat on the throne and gave the book to the Lamb is credited with creation. The Lamb wasn't sitting on the throne.

 

[from scratch]

You're taking the long way to get to salvation by Jesus Christ alone, and I know from experience you aren't even going to get to that point in conversation. So do others, who note the circular reasoning appealed to by those who long to appear orthodox:

You've already seen quotes from Elder111, that can't be reconciled with the one faith we share in Christ's redemption. To get any further, you would need to digest the source documents the SDA church considers authoritative. That entails an investment in time (years) and effort few are willing to commit to. Watching the antics of a rodent on a hamster wheel won't get you anywhere.

It does get rather boring at times, but their antics are great entertainment.

 

[from scratch]

What Bible do they use?

Did you mean abuse?

 

[VictorC]

ELDER 111:

What say YOU to the charges filed against the SDA?? AGREE?? or DISAGREE??

Was Jesus Christ GOD Himself in the flesh as John 1:1 and 14 indicate??

THAT is a good start there.

You're taking the long way to get to salvation by Jesus Christ alone, and I know from experience you aren't even going to get to that point in conversation. So do others, who note the circular reasoning appealed to by those who long to appear orthodox:

I also remember the time when I was talking to a middle-age SDA pastor inside Manila Sanitarium about his stand on salvation. This is how a number of SDA people like him will argue in circle to defend their founder’s teachings.

Justyn: Pastor, do you believe that a person will go to heaven because of his faith in Jesus alone?
SDA Pastor: Yes!
Justyn: What if a Christian who has faith in Jesus alone was eating pork and he died, will he be saved?
SDA Pastor: If he is a true Christian then he will not eat pork.
Justyn: But what if he is eating pork and he died, will he be saved?
SDA Pastor: If he is a true Christian then he will not eat pork.​

I also ask him about Ellen G. White’s writings:

Justyn: Pastor, is the writings of Mrs. White at par or equal with the Scripture?
SDA Pastor: No, it is not.
Justyn: Then would you consider that Mrs. White’s writings contain errors?
SDA Pastor: No, because she was guided by the Holy Spirit.​

You've already seen quotes from Elder111, that can't be reconciled with the one faith we share in Christ's redemption. To get any further, you would need to digest the source documents the SDA church considers authoritative. That entails an investment in time (years) and effort few are willing to commit to. Watching the antics of a rodent on a hamster wheel won't get you anywhere.

ELDER 111:

What say YOU to the charges filed against the SDA?? AGREE?? or DISAGREE??

Was Jesus Christ GOD Himself in the flesh as John 1:1 and 14 indicate??

THAT is a good start there.

How come you want to go with scripture now? You have already deny it as our only authority. All My Adventist life I have known the church to hold Jesus as exactly and very God. i have repeated over and over again that He is the Creator. It clearly demonstrates that you are not really interested nor are you searching for truth. Just want to make Adventist look bad. I assure you that you will succeed with the majority, it has already been foretold by Jesus Himself. Few will find and accept the truth.

BFA, do you think I might have made a prescient point you can consider?
All you're going to get is obfuscation accusing you of making Adventists look bad. And to think of it, you were advocating Elder111's defense in this thread. Such gratitude, eh?

 

[VictorC]

Did you mean abuse?

Good point.