Why would God create a flawed creation?

[Dave Ellis]

What's wrong with creating a world with the possibility of suffering, if you create a place where the suffering dissipates? They cancel (at worst (liberate, at best))?

Is your problem that when you think of Heaven, the suffering does not cease immediately?

Or am I misreading you?

Because the later dissipation of suffering does not "cancel out" the original act of suffering.

An omnibenevolent being can not logically create a place where people will needlessly suffer. The very idea is contradictory.

 

[ananda]

Jesus cleansed the heavens with His blood.

So, at the moment Jesus died, He "cleansed the heavens with His blood", thereby destroying the possibility of rebellion in heaven afterwards? So, old testament saints and prophets, before Jesus died, have or had the ability to rebel?

 

[ananda]

The Devil was confronted in Heaven, by the Holy Spirit.

The Devil saw his evil and was disappointed, so he fell.

When he fell, the angels saw that he was plaguing God and began to fight with him - so the fall was complete.

That is why it is no longer possible to rebel, in Heaven (without the help of the Son of the Devil - who waits).

Devil fell = no longer possible for us to rebel? ... I don't follow.

 

[Messy]

So, at the moment Jesus died, He "cleansed the heavens with His blood", thereby destroying the possibility of rebellion in heaven afterwards? So, old testament saints and prophets, before Jesus died, have or had the ability to rebel?

Yes, it's in the Bible, they rebelled sometimes, David sinned, and they got a new nature and went to heaven when Jesus died and preached the gospel and rose and went to heaven when He took captives with Him.

 

[Messy]

That's a rather morbid thought.... What is it with you Christians and blood?

That's what the Bible says. I was raised as a vegetarian and I can't see blood or I faint, lol.

 

[Gottservant]

Freedom does entail that certain consequences don't exist though.

For example, if I say you are completely free to do anything you want to, however if you do anything I don't want you to do, I'll shoot you in the head, then you aren't really free.

Then you define freedom without choice, which isn't freedom.

 

[Gottservant]

Because the later dissipation of suffering does not "cancel out" the original act of suffering.

Not even given enough time? In your opinion?

An omnibenevolent being can not logically create a place where people will needlessly suffer. The very idea is contradictory.

If move my hand through water in a circle, I create a vortex, but if the vortex is suffering and wrong, nothing about moving my hand around it is suffering and wrong.

You don't understand physics, yet you are trying to understand God? Perhaps?

 

[Gottservant]

Devil fell = no longer possible for us to rebel? ... I don't follow.

You now associate Heaven with truth, not with Darkness or Evil - that is Christ's doing.

 

[PureTruth7]

So even if Satan chose to seek forgiveness, God would deny him? The one sinner who arguably needs it the most?

He already has had his chance to repent. He chose to go beyond the line.

But not free will. God gives us that great gift, only to take it away?

I don't think you get my point...

You have to learn to trust in Him and obey His 10 commandments, which teaches how to love God and one another. Read the Bible and pray every day.

Pass, thank you.

Then what are you doing here...

 

[Dave Ellis]

Then you define freedom without choice, which isn't freedom.

That's exactly what you're advocating.

Believe in god or go to hell is not a free choice, it's coercion.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Not even given enough time? In your opinion?

Correct.

The fact someone might eventually recover emotionally from being raped does not excuse the rape. Saying it's all good because one day things will be good is absurd when talking about omnibenevolence.

If move my hand through water in a circle, I create a vortex, but if the vortex is suffering and wrong, nothing about moving my hand around it is suffering and wrong.

You don't understand physics, yet you are trying to understand God? Perhaps?

How on earth does that have any relevance to my point?

 

[Gottservant]

Correct.

The fact someone might eventually recover emotionally from being raped does not excuse the rape. Saying it's all good because one day things will be good is absurd when talking about omnibenevolence.

You might find it absurd, but believe me, someone who has been raped finds it an immense relief.

I doubt you are even considering what kind of experience you are speaking from.

How on earth does that have any relevance to my point?

Your frame of reference for complaint about the nature of suffering is wrong. You sit, as in Heaven, determined to criticise, yet without Heaven the suffering is worse - despite being a mere consequence of the ignorance of this fact (among other things)

Stop being obsequious about the absurdity of peering into Heaven, when you give God no reason to believe you mean something by it.

What is becoming clear is that you have every intention of blaming God to yourself, as if no one has any experience of a better life - my life is better because of God, simple limits to your understanding of how various frames of reference interact is no excuse to go around abusing people.

 

[ananda]

You now associate Heaven with truth, not with Darkness or Evil - that is Christ's doing.

So was heaven full of truth or did it have darkness, before Satan decided to rebel?

 

[Gottservant]

So was heaven full of truth or did it have darkness, before Satan decided to rebel?

It was full of the Glory of God, which is different from Darkness (because although you see Darkness, you know the Glory is there)

 

[Messy]

So was heaven full of truth or did it have darkness, before Satan decided to rebel?

Darkness is the absence of Light. It came when he fell.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You might find it absurd, but believe me, someone who has been raped finds it an immense relief.

I doubt you are even considering what kind of experience you are speaking from.

An immense relief would be knowing you aren't ever going to be raped in the first place.

Your frame of reference for complaint about the nature of suffering is wrong. You sit, as in Heaven, determined to criticise, yet without Heaven the suffering is worse - despite being a mere consequence of the ignorance of this fact (among other things)

Stop being obsequious about the absurdity of peering into Heaven, when you give God no reason to believe you mean something by it.

What is becoming clear is that you have every intention of blaming God to yourself, as if no one has any experience of a better life - my life is better because of God, simple limits to your understanding of how various frames of reference interact is no excuse to go around abusing people.

Assuming your god exists, all I'm doing is simply holding him accountable for his moral travesties.

 

[ananda]

It was full of the Glory of God, which is different from Darkness (because although you see Darkness, you know the Glory is there)

So, before Satan fell, it was "full of the Glory of God", which means that Satan could not have rebelled (as you seem to claim), unless the "Glory of God" was insufficient and required "Christ's doing" afterwards to more completely perfect it?

 

[ananda]

Darkness is the absence of Light. It came when he fell.

If heaven was perfect before Satan fell, then what gave Satan the ability to choose opposition to God?

 

[Gottservant]

So, before Satan fell, it was "full of the Glory of God", which means that Satan could not have rebelled (as you seem to claim), unless the "Glory of God" was insufficient and required "Christ's doing" afterwards to more completely perfect it?

The perfection of Heaven did not preclude its potential for sin.

It is not perfection to restrain from nothing, but (to refrain from) that which you know is evil.

The Devil could not do this (hence the fall).

 

[Gottservant]

If heaven was perfect before Satan fell, then what gave Satan the ability to choose opposition to God?

It was not an ability.