Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[listed]

A great example of affirming the stand those groups take in favor of the TEN Commandments is found in 1Cor 6.


1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is obvious Paul is talking about those who practice sin (evil) and is not making any reference to the law and especially the 10 Cs.

 

[listed]

And of course Romans 6 strongly affirms their support of the TEN Commandments -

Rom 6
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Astounding, absolutely astounding! You highlighted and underlined evidence stating exactly opposite your claim. I note you also will not accept verse 6 from the following chapter.

 

[BobRyan]

A great example of affirming the stand those groups take in favor of the TEN Commandments is found in 1Cor 6.


1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

And of course Romans 6 strongly affirms their support of the TEN Commandments -

Rom 6
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

It is obvious Paul is talking about those who practice sin (evil) and is not making any reference to the law and especially the 10 Cs.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1John 3:4.

Romans 7 Paul reminds us of that.

Romans 4 Paul reminds us of that.

Romans 3 - Paul reminds us of that.

Gal 3 -- Paul reminds us of that.

James 2 - James reminds us of that Law and that we will be judged by it.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Astounding, absolutely astounding! You highlighted and underlined evidence stating exactly opposite your claim. I note you also will not accept verse 6 from the following chapter.

Follow up factless accusations with data/evidence/ facts -- please.

Because we all know that I will be sticking with the Bible.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Follow up factless accusations with data/evidence/ facts -- please.

Because we all know that I will be sticking with the Bible.

I would believe more you are sticking with Ellen White than the Bible myself

 

[BobRyan]

It has come to my attention that some one or two here may have been confused and thought that the following was written by Ellen White --

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

=============================

I want to make it clear that the subject in that text above is from actual scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sophrosyne]

I see no proof from Paul that the Sabbath is mandatory upon Christians.... none.
Ellen White got it wrong and no twisting of the Bible is going to make her right as a prophet or theologian.

 

[BobRyan]

4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
Paul sees that the "Commandments of God" are still binding on the saints .

7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" sees that ALL TEN Commandments still apply to the saints today.

As does the "Westminster Confession of Faith"

As does Matthew Henry,

As does D.L. Moody.

As does R.C. Sproul

As does even the RCC documents quoted numerous times.

The idea that all these groups are merely "Ellen White" or that the Bible is merely Ellen White .. is lacking in evidence.

Those at war with God's Commandments - his "Ten Commandments" may struggle with this idea - but it still needs to be accepted as fact.

 

[Sophrosyne]

4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
Paul sees that the "Commandments of God" are still binding on the saints .

7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" sees that ALL TEN Commandments still apply to the saints today.

As does the "Westminster Confession of Faith"

As does Matthew Henry,

As does D.L. Moody.

As does R.C. Sproul

As does even the RCC documents quoted numerous times.

The idea that all these groups are merely "Ellen White" or that the Bible is merely Ellen White .. is lacking in evidence.

Those at war with God's Commandments - his "Ten Commandments" may struggle with this idea - but it still needs to be accepted as fact.

No.... Paul never says to keep the Law, instead he says to throw it out. You are at war with the Gospel of Grace.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider this "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8

 

[BobRyan]

Some have asked how it is that the "Baptist Confession of Faith" so perfectly illustrates the 7 points of the OP.

I am glad to point out that the "Westminster Confession of Faith" does thee same thing. Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

[FONT=&quot]Chapter XIX[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Of the Law of God[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][2][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][4][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][5][/FONT][FONT=&quot] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][6][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][7][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][8][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][9][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][10][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][11][/FONT][FONT=&quot] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][12][/FONT][FONT=&quot] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][13][/FONT][FONT=&quot] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][14][/FONT][FONT=&quot] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][15][/FONT][FONT=&quot] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][16][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][17][/FONT][FONT=&quot] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][18][/FONT][FONT=&quot] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][19][/FONT][FONT=&quot] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][20][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][21][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][22][/FONT]

Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[AndOne]

Question Bob Ryan - why do you keep the law?

 

[listed]

Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19

9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider this "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8

Nothing but the divorced out of context prof texts we have memorized, thanks to you. They play like a record with a bad skip for us older people.

 

[BobRyan]

Question Bob Ryan - why do you keep the law?

Heb 8 quotes Jer 31:31-33 informing us that this is the heart of the New Covenant "I will write My Laws on their heart and on their mind".

I am a New Covenant Christian as the Bible states.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not too long ago someone from this board went surfing the web looking for some help with the irrefutable points made on this thread - and found a board where Baptists had been discussing this same subject with me -- he thought he could get some help from them - but they were slow in coming up with something substantive -- so I posted this plea for help on that board - to help someone here who dearly wanted a compelling substantive response to the irrefutable points made on this thread and also quoted on some threads like it.

In recent days I have repeatedly made an appeal on this board - on behalf of someone on another board who came here wanting to find a substantive argument he could use against my quote of Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and or the "Westminster Confession of Faith".

He appears to like or endorse what Spurgeon teaches... maybe even section 19 so tossing Spurgeon under a bus is not going to meet his requirement.

He is not looking for run-of-the-mill low-brow false accusation, vitriol or name calling. Rather he needs a substantive compelling argument -- sans all the ad hominem that people often resort to when they have no real answers. ad hominem that the other Board rules claim they will not tolerate.

He needed substantive fact -- something that would hold up on a board having rules not open to all-vitriol and factless accusation.

It is only fair that this board help out since it was a Baptist poster here that first pointed me to the "Baptist Confession of Faith" -- you have certainly had more time to think about a good response. And I believe he could use it.

 

[BobRyan]

Some may be wondering how it is that "agreeing with my 7th point" where I object to the bending/editing of the Sabbath commend - is a way of refuting the list of points.

Or does that even happen?

Let us watch and see.

What Bob isn't sharing with us here is the following quote from the same sources he used in our debate accessible from my signature on the peanut gallery.

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

D L Moody is not presenting Saturday as the sabbath for the Christian. He clearly calls Sunday the sabbath. He does go on and try and apply at least some sabbath regulations to Sunday as principles to live by. The point is D L Moody is not referring to the 7th day sabbath.

bugkiller

You could not refute that D.L. Moody's statements were in fact made as quoted.

So apparently you chose not to read the 7 point list that goes with that "irrefutable" point made.

That list (quoted so many dozens of times by now on this section of the board - as everybody knows by now) looks like this.


==============================

7 summary points --



1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above (I object to their point 7)- and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

===============================

As we both know in D.L Moody's statement he claims he keeps Saturday as his Sabbath - but I still place him in the pro-sunday Scholarship group because of point 7 above.

Your logic in AGREEING that my opposition to point 7 above as I stated my opposition is indeed where I have a difference with Moody (i.e. agreeing with my summary) - "as if" this is a way to advance your counter argument to is - is not at all successful because you cannot oppose an argument by strongly affirming the point being made.

I guess we all knew that.

 

[BobRyan]

Question Bob Ryan - why do you keep the law?

New Covenant - Heb 8, Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My Law on the heart and on their mind".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

Some may be wondering how it is that "agreeing with my 7th point" where I object to the bending/editing of the Sabbath commend - is a way of refuting the list of points.

Or does that even happen?

Let us watch and see.

As anyone can see by using the little blue button going back to bugkiller's post they will discover there are no 7 points in the post bugkiller replied to. Bugkiller quoted the whole post. So if it is now edited readers please check the time stamps.

They will see all the material after the ========== has been artfully added in his response in his quoting. This is bearing false witness and outright open fraud.

thanks

 

[listed]

New Covenant - Heb 8, Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My Law on the heart and on their mind".

in Christ,

Bob

Problem is the My law is not covenant they broke as evidenced by English words make a new covenant. The Hebrew/Chaldean means literally cut a new stone. The same sentence also says not according to.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Problem is the My law is not covenant they broke as evidenced by English words make a new covenant. The Hebrew/Chaldean means literally cut a new stone. The same sentence also says not according to.

I think the main problem is most of Christianity pretty much "keeps" all of the 10 commandments except the Sabbath without even in most cases knowing they exist. The fact that almost no Christian who has never been introduced to keeping the Sabbath keeps it upon conversion shows that the 10 commandments are not "My Law" and are not written on the heart. I still contend that the commandment or Law given as to love your neighbor is what is written along with commandments to believe in Jesus as Savior and put your faith in him.