Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[listed]

you mean like the kind you guys have?

Of course what do you expect. Our glasses restore the Scripture you ignore.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Of course what do you expect. Our glasses restore the Scripture you ignore.

We use the Swiss watchmakers glasses instead.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I use bifocals for reading

Mind you, it is best not to filter away verses to make the bible fit theology. That kind of reading is an error. It's best avoided.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I use bifocals for reading

Mind you, it is best not to filter away verses to make the bible fit theology. That kind of reading is an error. It's best avoided.

haven't quite got to the bifocal stage yet... probably in the next 5 years though. We and almost every church is guilty of filtering but I think if one looks at the overall filtering one can see that some things are not filtered at all by most churches and Christians but filtered by small groups and those groups tend to be more legalistic demanding others be like them.

 

[BobRyan]

How nice then that even the majority of pro-sunday scholars agree to all 7 points in the OP -- 6 of which the Saturday Sabbath Christians also agree with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I asked, BobRyan, if you had read the entire content of Dies Domini but you did not answer. I did not ask if you posted all of it or intended to post all of it.

When asked if you had viewed Jame White's entire video you declined... as I recall.

Why should I read all of Dies Domini before I "notice" some part of it that is actually true?

Did you find that you could not find any part of Dies Domini to actually be true until you read every word?

If so - tell us how you managed that (or why you imagine this idea will help whatever case you want to make)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have some points too:

• According to Scripture the Law is a fatherly instruction by God which prescribes for man the ways that lead to the promised beatitude, and proscribes the ways of evil.
• “Law is an ordinance of reason for the common good, promulgated by the one who is in charge of the community” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 90, 4).
• Christ is the end of the law (cf. Rom 10:4); only he teaches and bestows the justice of God.
• The natural law is a participation in God’s wisdom and goodness by man formed in the image of his Creator. It expresses the dignity of the human person and forms the basis of his fundamental rights and duties.
• The natural law is immutable, permanent throughout history. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. It is a necessary foundation for the erection of moral rules and civil law.
• The Old Law is the first stage of revealed law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments.
• The Law of Moses contains many truths naturally accessible to reason. God has revealed them because men did not read them in their hearts.
• The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel.
• The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit received by faith in Christ, operating through charity. It finds expression above all in the Lord’s Sermon on the Mount and uses the sacraments to communicate grace to us.
• The Law of the Gospel fulfills and surpasses the Old Law and brings it to perfection: its promises, through the Beatitudes of the Kingdom of heaven; its commandments, by reforming the heart, the root of human acts.
• The New Law is a law of love, a law of grace, a law of freedom.
• Besides its precepts the New Law includes the evangelical counsels. “The Church’s holiness is fostered in a special way by the manifold counsels which the Lord proposes to his disciples in the Gospel”

 

[BobRyan]

I asked, BobRyan, if you had read the entire content of Dies Domini but you did not answer. I did not ask if you posted all of it or intended to post all of it.

Thank you for asking.

Maybe you skipped over the CCC sections that I posted?

A bit wordy...Did you have an actual point you wanted to make from that long quote section?

Because my point in these quotes below is that they agree with the 7 points in the OP. I can quote those 7 points for those unfamiliar with them.



[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini is a papal encyclical on the subject of Sunday and how it is regarded by tradition to be a holy day rooted in the 10 commandments as a continuation of the 4th commandment (numbered 3 by Roman Catholics).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini, John Paul II, 5 July 1998 - Apostolic Letter [/FONT]

========================== Dies Domini begin
[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."[/FONT]

=============================== Dies Domini ... end quote

The quote I gave from Dies Domini is fully consistent with the examples I gave from the Catholic Catechism - at least that is what we appear to have in the details of those quotes.

You provide no one example of Dies Domini or the CCC objecting to the 7 points listed in the OP. No not one.

I offer a perfect example to test the points -- in quotes from your own CCC. All you have done in the above post is ask if I have read - D. D. in its entirety.???

I say again that 6 of the 7 points appear here.

[FONT=&quot]2056 The word "Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2072 Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Application in James 2)
2069 The Decalogue forms a coherent whole. Each "word" refers to each of the others and to all of them; they reciprocally condition one another. the two tables shed light on one another; they form an organic unity. To transgress one commandment is to infringe all the others.30 One cannot honor another person without blessing God his Creator. One cannot adore God without loving all men, his creatures. the Decalogue brings man's religious and social life into unity.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Then you agree with

=============================================
"[FONT=&quot]the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations."
[FONT=&quot]================================================[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]or you o[FONT=&quot]bject?


[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]I note:

"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2063.... the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26[/FONT]"[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Do you really think those that are opposing all 7 points in the OP are going to do a 180 spin and agree with those statements above??

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy..[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
Qu[FONT=&quot]estion for MC --[/FONT]

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

[FONT=&quot]Wouldn't it be mor[FONT=&quot]e correct to say that "all m[FONT=&quot]en who accept Christ and are born again - justified by faith, filled [FONT=&quot]with the [FONT=&quot]Holy [FONT=&quot]Spirit - are [FONT=&quot]saved and also [FONT=&quot]commanded to [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]be baptized and [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]observe[/FONT] God's Commandments"[/FONT] --

[FONT=&quot]Maybe a correction to the wording is in order.

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[MoreCoffee]

Question for MC --

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that "all men who accept Christ and are born again - justified by faith, filled with the Holy Spirit - are saved and also commanded to be baptised and observe God's Commandments" --

Maybe a correction to the wording is in order.

in Christ,

Bob

Jesus summed up man’s duties toward God in this saying: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This immediately echoes the solemn call: “Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh.”

God has loved us first. The love of the One God is recalled in the first of the “ten words.” The commandments then make explicit the response of love that man is called to give to his God.

The Law of the Gospel fulfils the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.

The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the “Father who sees in secret,” in contrast with the desire to “be seen by men.” Its prayer is the Our Father.

The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”

The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.

 

[listed]

[FONT=&quot]
Qu[FONT=&quot]estion for MC --[/FONT]

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

[FONT=&quot]Wouldn't it be mor[FONT=&quot]e correct to say that "all m[FONT=&quot]en who accept Christ and are born again - justified by faith, filled [FONT=&quot]with the [FONT=&quot]Holy [FONT=&quot]Spirit - are [FONT=&quot]saved and also [FONT=&quot]commanded to [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]be baptized and [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]observe[/FONT] God's Commandments"[/FONT] --

[FONT=&quot]Maybe a correction to the wording is in order.

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Is your ultimate goal to close RCC on Sunday or make the Pope an SDA?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you really think those that are opposing all 7 points in the OP are going to do a 180 spin and agree with those statements above??

[FONT=&quot]2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy..[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Qu[FONT=&quot]estion for MC --[/FONT]

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

[FONT=&quot]Wouldn't it be mor[FONT=&quot]e correct to say that "all m[FONT=&quot]en who accept Christ and are born again - justified by faith, filled [FONT=&quot]with the [FONT=&quot]Holy [FONT=&quot]Spirit - are [FONT=&quot]saved and also [FONT=&quot]commanded to [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]be baptized and [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]observe[/FONT] God's Commandments"[/FONT] --

[FONT=&quot]Maybe a correction to the wording is in order.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Jesus summed up man’s duties toward God in this saying: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This immediately echoes the solemn call: “Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh.”

That is from Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 as Christ quotes it in Mark 12 and Matt 22 before the Cross.

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

There we see that the pre-cross Jews accepted Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 as the solid rock foundation that makes the Law of God immutable.

The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts,

As Christ in Matt 5 did not consider these two commandments to abolish/negate/downsize the Law of God - neither did the Jews in Mark 12 view these two commandments that way.

In my question - I am questioning the language about "[FONT=&quot]attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance "

in Christ,

Bob

[/FONT]

 

[listed]

[FONT=&quot]
Qu[FONT=&quot]estion for MC --[/FONT]

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christiansand that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

[FONT=&quot]Wouldn't it be mor[FONT=&quot]e correct to say that "all m[FONT=&quot]en who accept Christ and are born again - justified by faith, filled [FONT=&quot]with the [FONT=&quot]Holy [FONT=&quot]Spirit - are [FONT=&quot]saved and also [FONT=&quot]commanded to [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]be baptized and [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]observe[/FONT] God's Commandments"[/FONT] --

[FONT=&quot]Maybe a correction to the wording is in order.

[FONT=&quot]in Christ,

[FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Who cares? The Scripture does not back them up in this requirement.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Who cares? The Scripture does not back them up in this requirement.

The truth is that the snippets quoted by BobRyan are insufficient to properly inform the reader about what the Catholic Church teaches. Without context it is easy to misrepresent a matter. I've written several posts in this thread that more correctly present what the Catholic Church teaches. The post below is one example ...

Jesus summed up man’s duties toward God in this saying: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This immediately echoes the solemn call: “Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh.”

God has loved us first. The love of the One God is recalled in the first of the “ten words.” The commandments then make explicit the response of love that man is called to give to his God.

The Law of the Gospel fulfils the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.

The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the “Father who sees in secret,” in contrast with the desire to “be seen by men.” Its prayer is the Our Father.

The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”

The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.

 

[listed]

The truth is that the snippets quoted by BobRyan are insufficient to properly inform the reader about what the Catholic Church teaches. Without context it is easy to misrepresent a matter. I've written several posts in this thread that more correctly present what the Catholic Church teaches. The post below is one example ...

Dear ol' Bob will continue to misrepresent every thing you and I currently hold dear untill and even after we convert.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Dear ol' Bob will continue to misrepresent every thing you and I currently hold dear untill and even after we convert.

I am content to continue my conversion to Christ in his Church. BobRyan's theology fails to convince.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I am content to continue my conversion to Christ in his Church. BobRyan's theology fails to convince.

His theology reminds me of a used car salesman.

 

[BobRyan]

The truth is that the snippets quoted by BobRyan are insufficient to properly inform the reader about what the Catholic Church teaches. Without context it is easy to misrepresent a matter. I've written several posts in this thread that more correctly present what the Catholic Church teaches. The post below is one example ...

Make a point please... name an actual detail.

Vague false accusations make almost no point at all.

in Christ,

Bob