Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[BobRyan]

Your argument is so fully and so generically against the Commandments of God that almost anyone from any denomination could come here and take up my next response to your posts.

Which is the point I make in the OP.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

In the OP I show that there are 7 foundational points in the discussion and there is a significant difference on 1 of the 7.

But for a few - they will differ with all 7 of the points - placing their POV essentially against everyone on both sides of the question ... which is not a truly representative gap in terms of the main point of difference.

As long as they "object to everything" then both the Sunday and the Saturday keeping groups will find that that group hold to non-biblical views.

Everyone here claims to be "pro grace" on both sides of the question.

And the 7 point list is immediately rejected entirely by one group and immediately accepted by another.

Turns out it is the majority of pro-sunday Scholarship that accepts it.

And pretty much all of the Saturday keeping christians accept 6 out of the 7 points.

This is just a fact of the subject matter.


Nonspecifics again.

I give you specifics - documents, denominations and even posters on here who are sunday keeping and whose documents affirm all 7 points in the list.

Details matter.


In Christ,

Bob

So the gaps are religious related. Now tell me what gap I have not closed. Essentially you will not give up until you can declare victory and cause me to renounce my salvation by accepting your umm..... Fat Chance is out of town and said he would not return. Even Rev Chance at the local Baptist church left - literally. The name just cracked me up every time I passed the sign.

 

[listed]

Paul says in 1Cor 6 that the church members lose salvation when they go against the Law of God and he gives specifics.

No.

Paul argues against the idea of downsizing the Ten Commandments and even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.

Again no.

That is why Paul can insist that "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

hehe

Paul never argues against the Sabbath Commandment.

Then you must be claiming Paul argues for the Sabbath as an obligation of the Christian. Where is this?

In the stories you tell we may find that idea -- but not in real life.

Are you accusing me of lying? What about the 9th commandment? I am acquainted with the accuser of the brethren.

The doctrinal statements of Seventh-day Adventists are online and free to all. If you think you have a point in that regard - quote something.

I am pretty sure that has been done by a few people here. Some of them still post currently.

 

[listed]

in Rom 8:5-8 Paul contrasts those who are able to keep God's law with those who are not.

​

You have to be careful not to actually quote the text when you say that.

When we look at the actual Word of God - we do see Paul talking aboujt the "Law of God" -- in Rom 8:5-8

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"

The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the Catholic Church -- is it a mortal sin or a venial sin to skip mass and not keep the Sabbath Commandment?

I agree with those who say that the lost are never told to keep the Ten Commandments so as to be saved. And this point gets raised on this section of the board all the time.

But at the same time - the New Covenant writes the moral law of God on the heart - and we are brought in line with it - rather than tossing it under a bus.

in Christ,

Bob

Missing all of the available Sunday masses is not a sin if you have some reason for doing so, such as being ill, caring for somebody who is ill, or distance making it impractical to attend etcetera but doing so because you deliberately wanted to avoid mass may be a sin. I refer you to Hebrews 10:24-27 GNB

(24) Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.
(25) Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.
(26) For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us.
(27) Instead, all that is left is to wait in fear for the coming Judgment and the fierce fire which will destroy those who oppose God!​

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.


Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"

The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.

Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.

Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.

So then Romans 6 and 8 are in perfect agreement.

And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Missing all of the available Sunday masses is not a sin if you have some reason for doing so, such as being ill, caring for somebody who is ill, or distance making it impractical to attend etcetera but doing so because you deliberately wanted to avoid mass may be a sin. I refer you to Hebrews 10:24-27 GNB

(24) Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.
(25) Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.
(26) For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us.
(27) Instead, all that is left is to wait in fear for the coming Judgment and the fierce fire which will destroy those who oppose God!​

So then keeping the commandments of God are not a means of earning salvation - yet the saints are called to do that very thing - obedience and not rebellion.

In fact 1 John 5:1-4 argues that this is the heart and soul of loving God and loving the people of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

No.Again no.heheThen you must be claiming Paul argues for the Sabbath as an obligation of the Christian.

As do even the pro-sunday scholars in the OP.

Where is this?

"There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

 

[BobRyan]

I am pretty sure that has been done by a few people here. Some of them still post currently.

hmm so then "yet again" you have an accusation without a shred of fact to back it up??? really??

 

[BobRyan]

So the gaps are religious related. Now what me what gap I have not closed. Essentially you will not give up until you can declare victory and cause me to renounce my salvation

wha--huh???

creative writing exercise??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

So then keeping the commandments of God are not a means of earning salvation - yet the saints are called to do that very thing - obedience and not rebellion.

In fact 1 John 5:1-4 argues that this is the heart and soul of loving God and loving the people of God.

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, as the old covenant scriptures say (1 Samuel 15:22) and that principle remains true today. Yet it is by grace that we are saved through faith for the purpose of doing the good works to which God has called the faithful, thus the faithful seek to obey God because God's grace enables them to do so and all that I have written amounts to saying that goodness matters a great deal; the man or woman who acts upon the faith delivered once and for all time to the faithful will live because of that faith. Therefore one's good works done out of faith by means of grace yield the peace filled fruit of salvation.

I understand what you have written and have a similar understanding regarding goodness and the avoidance of sins and I fully acknowledge that both goodness and avoiding sin are graces from God. It is important to always be sure that every explanation of the gospel that passes one's lips is true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. No admixture of human effort originated obedience can be present in it. All is of grace and grace bears its fruit in the obedience of faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, as the old covenant scriptures say (1 Samuel 15:22) and that principle remains true today. Yet it is by grace that we are saved through faith for the purpose of doing the good works to which God has called the faithful, thus the faithful seek to obey God because God's grace enables them to do so and all that I have written amounts to saying that goodness matters a great deal; the man or woman who acts upon the faith delivered once and for all time to the faithful will live because of that faith. Therefore one's good works done out of faith by means of grace yield the peace filled fruit of salvation.

I understand what you have written and have a similar understanding regarding goodness and the avoidance of sins and I fully acknowledge that both goodness and avoiding sin are graces from God. It is important to always be sure that every explanation of the gospel that passes one's lips is true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. No admixture of human effort originated obedience can be present in it. All is of grace and grace bears its fruit in the obedience of faith.

Since we seem to differ on a great many things I feel constrained to post ... agreed!

And this is reason to be careful when attributing a position to me that one not quote what others might wish or imagine my position to be - but quote me.

And I will try to remember to do the same for you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Since we seem to differ on a great many things I feel constrained to post ... agreed!

And this is reason to be careful when attributing a position to me that one not quote what others might wish or imagine my position to be - but quote me.

And I will try to remember to do the same for you.

I hope we can treat each other with respect and also refrain from telling the other what he believes or opinion about what the other's faith tradition teaches.

A quote from the CCC is fine, just as a quote from the 27/28 fundamentals would be fine but beyond the quote let's not venture into making policy for each other's church, that would be a good step towards cordial discussion.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe in sticking with the facts even if they are inconvenient at times. in this case the OP points to a 7 point list - and when it comes to the great majority of scholars on this subject - the debate normally resolves down to just one of the 7 points.

But on this area of CF -- all 7 points are constantly called into question - on almost every thread - by at least a few posters.

 

[listed]

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.

No Paul is talking about the old nature that is dead, yet lives. Paul does not address pagans in any of his letters. I also do not recall Paul talking about pagans in in them. I fully understand how that seems to be a contradiction to you. But another favorite of mine is Rom 12 about the living sacrifice. The sacrifice (old man) continues to crawl off of the altar. James talks about how this happens. John talks about how to deal with it.

Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"

Even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law and never sin. If this is wrong present anyone ever accomplishing this incredible feat except Jesus. You can not name a single successful individual in last 2,000 years or even the entire history of the planet. Yet the Scripture says some are righteous even while it is recorded they sin. Righteousness is apart from the law as Paul says. His testimony is that his righteousness is not from his own efforts/activity. You claim otherwise. Now you will probably say where is your Scripture proof. I will tell you it has already been quoted and referenced to you and thrown in the trash. I see no need to repeat what you will not accept.

Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.

No you are splitting a complete person into 2 individuals. In case you have not heard there is a war going on with the old nature. No Paul is not doing that in Romans 6.

Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.

Tell do you sin? Are you then a salve of sin? I would say it depends on your life style.[/quote]

So then Romans 6 and 8 are in perfect agreement. [/quote]Yes both are in perfect agreement.

And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.

in Christ,

Bob

Your pro-Sunday scholars are mixed up spouting things that make their living and not necessarily the truth.

 

[listed]

So then keeping the commandments of God are not a means of earning salvation - yet the saints are called to do that very thing - obedience and not rebellion.

In fact 1 John 5:1-4 argues that this is the heart and soul of loving God and loving the people of God.

in Christ,

Bob

No, you are calling the saints back to the OC. The real issue is you want to avoid sin and think by doing so you are righteous. Does not hold water if 1 reads the Scripture. The commandments John is talking about are outlined in 1 Jn 3:23 and Jn 15:10. These commandments are the famous 10 Cs.

 

[listed]

As do even the pro-sunday scholars in the OP.



"There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

Your quoted passages do not mean the same thing to me, they do to you. Your intended meaning has them out of context and lying.

 

[listed]

hmm so then "yet again" you have an accusation without a shred of fact to back it up??? really??

No the record bears witness against you. You continue to pretend yesterday never existed.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.


Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"

The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.

Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.

Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.

So then Romans 6 and 8 are in perfect agreement.

And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.

No Paul is talking about the old nature that is dead, yet lives.

Paul addresses the saved vs the lost. Just as he did in Romans 6 and 7 and 2 and 1 and....

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law and never sin.

Paul does not say that to keep the Law as a Christian does not mean that you must first never have sinned.

that would be nonsensical.

Read the text again.

.Your pro-Sunday scholars are mixed up spouting things that make their living and not necessarily the truth.

They are "your pro-sunday scholars" -- all mine are pro-Saturday. MoreCoffee knows this as well about my "scholars".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
They are "your pro-sunday scholars" -- all mine are pro-Saturday. MoreCoffee knows this as well about my "scholars".

in Christ,

Bob

Scholars tend to reflect their church's theology. If they differ too radically from it then they get kicked out. Catholic scholars have great latitude granted to them. However it is not scholars who decide what the church teaches. For what the Catholic Church teaches go to Catholic councils and dogmatic statements ratified by the bishop of Rome. For Catholic teaching about the law go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. See pages 496 to 612. But for a short general comment on Christians and law see pages 477 to 480. Just three short pages. They say this:

The New Law or the Law of the Gospel

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: “I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel.... I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:

If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there... the perfect way of the Christian life.... This sermon contains... all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.​

1967 The Law of the Gospel “fulfils,” refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection. In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfils the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the “kingdom of heaven.” It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faith—the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christ—and so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.
1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfils the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.
1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the “Father who sees in secret,” in contrast with the desire to “be seen by men.” Its prayer is the Our Father.
1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”
The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.
1971 To the Lord’s Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lord’s teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. “Let charity be genuine.... Love one another with brotherly affection.... Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality.” This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church.
1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who “does not know what his master is doing” to that of a friend of Christ — “For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you”—or even to the status of son and heir.
1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. The traditional distinction between God’s commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. The precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.
1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. The perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbour. The counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practised in keeping with the vocation of each:

[God] does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions, that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.​