Orthodoxy unwelcoming?

[~Anastasia~]

eta: just a heads-up regarding the thread, since there are a lot of words - I'm just reflecting on people needing support attending an Orthodox Church alone for the first time - NOT running down the Church or complaining. I'm actually thankful to have been given the opportunity to reflect on this.


I just received a message from an Orthodox friend. We've both been so blessed by our parishes, and we wrote each other recently about our wonderful experiences. He just said something to me about people who say Orthodox Churches are unwelcoming, and how it would be good if they could attend our parishes.

The timing was interesting. I sent him this reply, in part:

"I just visited a large Greek Orthodox Church. I think it is easily the most beautiful Church I've ever been inside yet. While I prefer ours, the choir and chanters were very expert, and in some ways did surpass our own. The acoustics were perfect. Everything was wonderful. Except ...

"I was not greeted by a single person. I'm not blaming them. Truthfully, I'm thinking it's probably because it's a large Church, and I don't think I was noticed. Nice if you want to blend in, I suppose. But I'm aching for my Church family, my priest, my home parish.

"I guess if this represented someone's only contact with Orthodoxy, they could be very put off. Thankfully, I am not. It does make me feel surprisingly empty though.

"I may visit again sometime and just soak in the beauty of the Liturgy and the Church.

"But I'll take plain and welcoming any day. "


I had very much wanted to visit other Greek parishes, specifically, is the reason I came here. I'm thinking I should have gone back to St. Sava's - so hopefully that's where I'll be next Sunday!

It's interesting the differences. And I do have to say that every Church I've been in up till now has been much more welcoming. But again, they were all smaller Churches. I don't think I'd like to belong to a large parish.

I wasn't challenged at the Chalice with the priest not knowing me though. I needn't have worried about that, though I did do as suggested by Father and contact the priest in advance to see if he required any documentation.

But I think I prefer parishes small enough where folks know one another.

 

[Tigger45]

My two experiences with Orthodox parishes the members seemed distant. The first one was Antiochian where I even became a catechumen. I was hoping that over time people would start to recognize my wife and I and would slowly warm up but it didn't happen. Plus the fact that the Priest himself was a convert I was hoping would help but that only extended to having a relationship with him.

The second was at a Greek Orthodox church which I visited twice and felt the same way about. But in all fairness I have found this behavior in all the different denoms throughout Christianity and it really is on a parish or church by parish or church experience and you can't judge the whole organization by a particular congregations warmth.

I would have to say Kylissa that I was a bit jealous of our experience of your entry into Orthodoxy but on the other hand I am glad for you that you did have a warm experience.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks for the reply, Tigger. And I did have a wonderful experience, thank God for that. I don't like to think that whether or not I decided to convert was based on that (or would have been), but only God knows what would have happened if I had felt rejected. I really am so sorry that yours was less warm and welcoming.

I actually don't mean at ALL to blame the Orthodox Church. As you said, it is something that can be felt in many kinds of churches. It's just the dynamic of the local parish or fellowship. I've experienced coolness in other Churches, and varying degrees of warmth in Orthodoxy. I think geographic location and size of the Church might have more to do with it than the type of Church.

I've been thinking about it ever since though. I know I have encouraged folks to visit an Orthodox Church if they are interested, but it may be that I ought to have more sensitivity than I have had to their concerns? (Though I've tried to be sensitive.) It's not only the welcoming/not welcoming that people have to worry about, but by its very strangeness to them, Orthodoxy can be intimidating to some. Not knowing what to do when everyone around you looks like they all belong to a secret club and they know the secret handshake, and you don't, can be awkward. Additionally, many times in Orthodox Churches there is no chatting really before coffee hour, and that can seem off-putting if people don't understand and take it personally. Add to all of that the ethnic barriers, and sometimes language barriers - and it can mean a huge hurdle for people to tackle just to visit an Orthodox Church, especially alone.

Yes, now that I consider it, I'm VERY thankful that my priest was so kind and helpful, and that we have basically a one-woman welcoming committee in a very dear lady at our Church who does almost everything. There was one other catechumen when I started going to classes, and normally I would have sought a friendship there, but we were both converting by ourselves - his wife wasn't interested, and my husband was very opposed - under those trying circumstances he and I remained not much more than acquaintances.

But being quickly "adopted" by the Seniors helped me immensely.

Anyway, what I've been thinking about is how important it probably is to encourage people to make contacts and to support them in visiting Orthodox Churches, and how nice it would be if the Churches had some way to identify and welcome visitors.

The one I visited today had a sign up when I left asking visitors to sign in, but when I arrived just after the start of Matins, it wasn't there. The priest had emailed me back and asked me to introduce myself, but he wasn't there today. From where I am, there's probably not much I can do on behalf of other Churches, but I will keep that in mind. Suggestions as to anything any of us can do would be appreciated.

I have noticed only one person I didn't recognize who was alone at our Church. I'm actually very shy by nature, but I did introduce myself, welcome her, and see if she needed any help or information. Turned out she was a visiting Presvytera, and didn't need help with Orthodoxy but we had a long and wonderful conversation.

I guess this just made me more aware of the potential barriers for people, and I'm very thankful to have been made aware of it.

 

[tapi]

Some thoughts from Abbot Tryphon's blog @ https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering

When the Doors of Mercy are Slammed Shut

This world is filled with people who are suffering, and estranged from God. People who need the healing that the Church has to offer, are often excluded from the very place that can bring about wholeness, often because we exclude them from our midst. We exclude them because we judge them for their perceived unworthiness. They are either from the wrong side of town, or the wrong race of people, or otherwise seen as unfit to be standing beside us in church.

A few years ago a person wrote, asking if I would be willing to talk to a friend of his who had been told by an Orthodox priest that there was no place for her in his parish. This woman was an inquirer, and had decided she wanted to become Orthodox. When she shared with this priest that she was a lesbian, the priest told her there was no place for her in his parish. Despondent, she walked away. The hospital of the soul was closed to her before the therapy could even begin. (She never did call me.)

I know of another situation where a priest told a young man he should consider the protestant church down the street, because the parish was Greek Orthodox, and since he was not Greek, he’d feel more “comfortable” with those other Christians.

I personally witnessed someone manning a candle stand, who swiftly ushered a homeless man out the door, preventing him from entering into the temple. He was dirty, and might offend other worshipers with his appearance, and “he smelled”, the attendant told me. I rushed out the door, and asked the man to please come in, and invited him to stand with me for the remainder of the Vigil Service.

We spend a lot of time talking about the Orthodox Church being the true Church, yet construct walls to keep “certain people” from entering. We spent a lot of time talking about the truth and beauty of Orthodoxy, but are quick to turn the Church into a private club, where anyone who is not like us, is to be excluded. Christ’s Church is good for us, but the doors are slammed shut for people who are not like us.

It is imperative that we let the Church be what she was founded to be, the Seat of Mercy. By practicing mercy we drive out the passions that diminish our love for God and neighbor, and bring healing to ourselves and those around us. By practicing mercy, we open the doors for an abundance of grace to bring salvation to everyone, and, in the process, flood our own hearts with God’s love. By welcoming everyone, we recognize our own unworthiness, and see everyone else as our brothers and sisters. We wish for them, what we already have for ourselves.

With love in Christ, Abbot Tryphon

 

[gzt]

It's definitely hard to strike a balance. On the one hand, you know, when I visit a church, I'm there for church and I don't want somebody to get chatty with me. Venerate the icons and get to work. I plow past "greeters". No, don't talk to me during the service once I'm inside, either: I'm busy! Afterwards, whatever. So you do want to give people some space. On the other hand, I mean, you do have a point that somebody who's there for the first time, or somebody who does want to at least get a "hello" isn't unreasonable for wanting some human interaction when they come in.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, it's a parish by parish thing. I have been fortunate enough to have been welcomed wherever I have gone. I know it is out there though, and I hope you can find a place Tigger where you and your family would be welcomed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's definitely hard to strike a balance. On the one hand, you know, when I visit a church, I'm there for church and I don't want somebody to get chatty with me. Venerate the icons and get to work. I plow past "greeters". No, don't talk to me during the service once I'm inside, either: I'm busy! Afterwards, whatever. So you do want to give people some space. On the other hand, I mean, you do have a point that somebody who's there for the first time, or somebody who does want to at least get a "hello" isn't unreasonable for wanting some human interaction when they come in.

I think that's the point. There does need to be a balance. Me myself, I'm not interested in chatting in the Narthex, and I'd honestly rather nobody said anything to anyone else during the Liturgy ...

And yet, I think of people who I've encouraged to "Come and see" ... and if they encountered that with no understanding for why we do what we do ... well, they might never come back.

I guess that's the essence of what's on my mind. I could have wished people had been more welcoming during Coffee Hour. I love meeting new people, hearing their stories, sharing mine, and all of that. And usually I get to do that even at new parishes. This time it didn't happen. I'm not crushed or anything. Like I said, I actually want to go back for the sake of the Liturgy and the Church.

But I do have people who won't understand or appreciate any of that on my mind today ...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Some thoughts from Abbot Tryphon's blog @ https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/morningoffering

Thanks for sharing that, Tapi.

I cringe to think of people turned away for "not being Greek" especially, but also for other reasons. That has been a problem I know other denominations have faced as well - turning away those "unlike us" or "not good enough".

It's especially shameful for the Church to be doing so.

 

[~Anastasia~]

yeah, it's a parish by parish thing. I have been fortunate enough to have been welcomed wherever I have gone. I know it is out there though, and I hope you can find a place Tigger where you and your family would be welcomed.

Me too until today. LOL, I know it's not me - and I don't blame them either. I think once a Church reaches a certain size ...

The worst ever was when I went to my husband's old church with him after we were married. I forget how many members it has - maybe 17K? I have never felt more alone in a church in my life! Every time that has happened, it has been a large church. LOL, in fact, I have a few memories of particularly small churches with - rather unnerving practices - that I could have wished were bigger and I could blend in!


And Tigger, I second that - I really do hope you can find a place for you and your family to call home. My prayers are with you!

 

[xenia]

We have attended three EO parishes in my life (GOA, Jerusalem, and now ROCOR) and I found that the friendliness takes place during coffee hour. People might just smile at us or nod in our direction when we come into the Church for Liturgy but they almost always made a point to chat with us during coffee hour. We've visited many EO churches on the west coast of all jurisdictions and found the same to be true, that if we made the effort to stay for coffee hour (or "tea," as the Russians call it) we are objects of friendly interest.

If we didn't stay for coffee hour we never had the opportunity to meet anyone and we might leave with the feeling it was an unfriendly church.

I have noticed that many visitors do not stay for coffee hour, even if invited. Sometimes when we visit a church, we don't stay for coffee hour, either. But that's where all the hospitality happens, from what I've seen.

I have heard sad stories of visitors and converts treated rather poorly at coffee hour. We haven't experienced this ourselves.

 

[E.C.]

I think the key is coffee hour.

Personally I prefer to be left alone during the services because, in my mind, the church is for praying while the parish house (or basement) is for socializing.

But at the same time when there are people who've never been to that particular parish before, whether they're Orthodox or not, I think they need a "hello. Nave is this way, bathroom is that way" at the very least. The priest at the Greek church here at the end of Liturgy during announcements will ask if anyone in the congregation is visiting. He doesn't ask much, just a simple who you are and where you're from and he'll invite them to join us for coffee and a bite in the social hall.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, our priest always mentions that we have coffee hour and fellowship and invites everyone to stay.

That has been my experience (and my preference) that hospitality happens afterwards. I did go to the fellowship, and stayed about 20 minutes. I was unnoticed, I suppose. I did nod, smile, got a glass of apple juice. Like I said, I have been around enough that it doesn't put me off, but I would be really concerned for a visiting inquirer.

 

[SeventhValley]

It happens at all churches.

Hands down Orthodox are the friendliest liturgical churches I have been at.

 

[seashale76]

I come from a large parish- and sometimes it is difficult to tell the visitors from those who come but once in a blue moon. We do have people that greet but aren't overboard about it- and everyone is friendly if you go to coffee hour. Honestly, I used to loathe going to churches where they literally jumped on you and made a big deal of your visitorness. It never made me inclined to want to go back to those places. It always smacked of obligation and insincerity. It's a personality thing with me, I guess.

I once visited a church and filled out their visitor packet thingie, explicitly checking that I didn't want a call or a home visit. The next week they sent people to my house. At least I got a mug out of it. But still. Then there was the Greek parish I visited where they wanted my husband and I to wear visitor badges and then the priest had us stand up and introduce ourselves to the entire parish after liturgy. Not cool.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, when I tried to imagine a solution ...

I mean, if I were the greeter at a large parish, what do you say? If you ask if a person is a vistor, and they have actually been there at least several times, then you run the risk of offending them by basically implying they are forgettable. But you do want to identify the visitors if you want to at least welcome them and make sure they know whatever basics they may need help with.

I certainly don't like the idea of overwhelming people.

Nearly every parish I've been to has handled matters perfectly. Most people are sensitive to a lost expression in the Narthex and will offer help. Most priests know when they see a face they've never seen before. And most people are friendly to those around them during coffee hour.

I still want to think it's because this one was large. I saw people who knew each other being friendly to one another.

 

[Cappadocious]

"I was not greeted by a single person. I'm not blaming them. Truthfully, I'm thinking it's probably because it's a large Church, and I don't think I was noticed. Nice if you want to blend in, I suppose. But I'm aching for my Church family, my priest, my home parish.

"I guess if this represented someone's only contact with Orthodoxy, they could be very put off. Thankfully, I am not. It does make me feel surprisingly empty though. ]

For some introverts, they could be very put off by greeters.

These are difficult things. Personally, I like a bit of both sorts of churches, I suppose I am fickle.

Many Greek parishes are also unused to visitors.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For some introverts, they could be very put off by greeters.

These are difficult things. Personally, I like a bit of both sorts of churches, I suppose I am fickle.

Many Greek parishes are also unused to visitors.

True, you do have a point that greeters could even put someone off. I've been thinking about it, and I don't see an easy way to make everyone happy.

I guess that takes me back to being sensitive to the people we invite to Church. Unfortunately, of the people I have encouraged, most are online, and only a few I am actually present with.

In fact, and I may be wrong in doing this, two people I know who are seeking I have not invited, because I know where they are and what their sentiments are, and I think the impression they would get from the Orthodox Church is likely to put them off at this stage in their growth. (One is very anti-Church and was raised Catholic and has very bad memories, and the other is just starting to embrace Church, but is very anti-churchy-churches.)

But only one person online has been close enough that I myself could go with them. And coolness and rejection is what that person fears. I just meet a good many who want to go, but have heard Orthodox Churches are like this, and are afraid to be made to feel unwelcome, so those folks are on my mind, since in a sense I have experienced it now.

I expect this Church possibly gets more visitors than others I have visited, just because it's a large Church in a large city. Visitors are probably rare in almost all the other parishes I have visited and attended, I think. But still, they may not get all that many. I'm really not sure.

If nothing else I must agree that this is not a simple problem to address. But for the sake of inquirers and visitors, it's something that would be well to be sensitive to.

 

[Kristos]

It's an interesting subject. I suppose it's a bit of a modern dilemma - where people might travel many miles to attend a church and my not know anyone else there. In the village - everyone already knows each other - so no problem. Historically, there was a minor-order called "doorman" - but it seems that their job was more concerned with guarding the door than with welcoming strangers. The liturgy was not really "open" to the unilluminated - it's language presupposes that everyone present is there to become one body and receive the one body. Even official catechumens were dismissed following the liturgy of the word (prior to the liturgy of the faithful) - letting Joe off the street, who might be anything or anyone, into the liturgy would have been unconscionable. I'm not prompting the idea of returning to this practice, but never the less, I think it's important to understand the history.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I used to think, at my home parish, of volunteering to be linked to on the website as someone who will walk you through the liturgy and explain things to visitors if you want. The priest and I talked about it once too but we never did it.

My idea was there would be a blurb saying "If you'd like someone to stand next to you and explain the liturgy, our traditions, or just to know to look for you, feel free to contact Joseph at ___________" and it could email me and I would take care of 'em on Sunday. That way if they wanted it they had it, if not they could be anonymous.

You could also have a packet in the narthex of welcoming literature saying the same thing "If you're new, feel free to approach ______, _______, or ______ (with photos of those members) who will be happy to walk you through the liturgy or answer any questions." It's non-threatening but welcoming and helpful. Gives a perfect segue into "Why don't you come to Coffee hour with me?" afterwards. You could even then make sure the visitors get good info, because you could train these people beforehand so as to make sure they knew what they were talking about.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's an interesting subject. I suppose it's a bit of a modern dilemma - where people might travel many miles to attend a church and my not know anyone else there. In the village - everyone already knows each other - so no problem. Historically, there was a minor-order called "doorman" - but it seems that their job was more concerned with guarding the door than with welcoming strangers. The liturgy was not really "open" to the unilluminated - it's language presupposes that everyone present is there to become one body and receive the one body. Even official catechumens were dismissed following the liturgy of the word (prior to the liturgy of the faithful) - letting Joe off the street, who might be anything or anyone, into the liturgy would have been unconscionable. I'm not prompting the idea of returning to this practice, but never the less, I think it's important to understand the history.

Thank you for pointing those things out. Yes, the Church has a long history, and things are SO different now. I suppose that means it's something relatively new to have to consider, and I guess we all know that change doesn't come easily.