Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[AndOne]

According to the OP they get the 7th point wrong. page 1, post 1 and 4... #1 click here.

Posters such as listed, victor etc - argue that those pro-sunday scholars get all 7 points wrong - so there are at least two camps for the pro-sunday idea. But it appears that by far the larger one is what we find in the OP. We agree with 6 of their 7 points while their fellow pro-sunday peers in the "other group" oppose all SEVEN of those points.

in Christ,

Bob

Okay - that clarifies things a bit for me as far as the thread goes.

I would venture to say that many of the pro-Sunday scholars would disagree with the premisis of your point 7 however (I don't disagree with 1-6). Both the LBCOF and WCOF I believe give scriptural support for switching Sabbath observervance to day 1 from day 7. Saying they did it based upon man made tradition is presumptuous at best. You may disagree with their scriptural basis for a Sunday Sabbath - I get that - but to say they did it based on man made tradition indicates a lack of understanding of either confession or is disengenuous.

 

[listed]

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

But listed said -- "Jesus did not teach nor bring the law according to JN 1:17. Jesus gave His own commandments "

How instructive then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholars admit to the Matt 5 Bible facts and do not insert the text of listed's doctrine into John 1:17.

It is not my fault your pro-Sunday scholars do not consider LK 24:44 nor Heb 7:12 in regard to your charge. Maybe I should found a school and give them a scholarship.

Christ said in Luke 16 that those who refuse to listen to Moses are not really listening to the one who rose from the dead either. And the reason for that is that is seen in Christ's teaching Matt 5 and in Mark 7:6-13 where the Commandments of God are strongly affirmed by Christ - the Giver of the Law.

You need to read LK 16. Maybe Jesus quoted Abraham about one raising from the dead. Only if what is recorded in the chapter is merely an illustrative story could Jesus be quoted as saying what you said. It is certainly not in line with what is called a parable.

One of my favorite verses (16) is found there

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Jesus does not teach the law in Mat 5 as contended. Jesus quotes the law and follows it with But I say... That sure is not affirmation in my eyes.

His position is that the Law is codified in stone at the time of Moses - and Grace comes in flesh in the form of Christ. BOTH remain in the New Covenant where Jeremiah 31:31-33 says that the LAW of God as known to Jeremiah is "written on the heart and mind" and Paul affirms this in Heb 8.

JN 1:17 does not nor imply that. Sorry.

Neither Jeremiah nor Paul say the covenant made at Sinai is written on the heart and mind. An honest exegesis will prove this point in my favor. Since you revived that peanut Gallery thread now closed. Your tormentor was well known and despised by your group for doing such. He has several posts on the Jeremiah 31 passage. I believe he did Heb 8 at least once.

Another Bible point the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship accepts gladly.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

Paul does not say that as Christians "we admit the Law exists". He argues that our FAITH establishes the Law of God and we see that in Rev 14:12 in the case of the "saints who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus".

Another point that the OP would find affirmed in the case of even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship.

in Christ,

Bob

To argue in that way invalidates everything else Paul said about the law making him nothing but a babbling idiot.

Paul does not say keep the law from one side of his mouth and say from the other But now we are delivered from the law and Christ is the end of the law not to mention several not under the law passages.

 

[listed]

Paul does not say that as Christians "we admit the Law exists". He argues that our FAITH establishes the Law of God and we see that in Rev 14:12 in the case of the "saints who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus".

Another point that the OP would find affirmed in the case of even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship.

in Christ,

Bob

It simply is amazing in our society that status makes one right and makes them an authority.

 

[BobRyan]

The point is not that differences are not allowed - the point is that there is no way to bend/wrench this into "only SDAs see the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant" -- all such arguments fail in light of the OP, where it is noticed that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the TEN commandments being in the moral law of god.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"
​

Establish does not mean in force. I certainly acknowledge the existence of the law.

Paul does not say that as Christians "we admit the Law exists". He argues that our FAITH establishes the Law of God and we see that in Rev 14:12 in the case of the "saints who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus".

Another point that the OP would find affirmed in the case of even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship.

To argue in that way invalidates everything else Paul said about the law

Not even remotely.

"what matters is KEEPING the Law of God" 1Cor 7:19 - said Paul

Rom 8:5-8 only the lost do not keep the Law of God and are in fact unnable to keep it -- said Paul.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God!" Rom 3:31 - said Paul.

"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind through Jesus Christ" Rom 2:13-16. --- said Paul

The 5th commandment "is the FIrST Commandment" with a promise -- in that unit of TEN -- Eph 6:2 -- said Paul.


Christ is the 'GOAL of the Law" the Objective - the point to which the LAW leads - as Paul points out in Romans 10.

James 2:11 "He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder." - said James

No wonder the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship chooses not to be at war with these Bible facts.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

But listed said -- "Jesus did not teach nor bring the law according to JN 1:17. Jesus gave His own commandments "

How instructive then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholars admit to the Matt 5 Bible facts and do not insert the text of listed's doctrine into John 1:17.

Christ said in Luke 16 that those who refuse to listen to Moses are not really listening to the one who rose from the dead either. And the reason for that is that is seen in Christ's teaching Matt 5 and in Mark 7:6-13 where the Commandments of God are strongly affirmed by Christ - the Giver of the Law.

His position is that the Law is codified in stone at the time of Moses - and Grace comes in flesh in the form of Christ. BOTH remain in the New Covenant where Jeremiah 31:31-33 says that the LAW of God as known to Jeremiah is "written on the heart and mind" and Paul affirms this in Heb 8.

Another Bible point the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship accepts gladly.

It is not my fault your pro-Sunday scholars do not consider LK 24:44 nor Heb 7:12 in regard to your charge. Maybe I should found a school and give them a scholarship.

Indeed you may wish to correct them. My point is that it is not just the Bible and seventh day Sabbath keeping Christians that point out the flaw in your argument.

You need to read LK 16. Maybe Jesus quoted Abraham about one raising from the dead.

Indeed - the moral of the story according to Christ "If they do not believe Moses - they will not believe though one rises from the dead".

No wonder James is so happy that "Moses is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath" Acts 15. For - he is someone who believes "though one rises from the dead".

Jesus does not teach the law in Mat 5 as contended. Jesus quotes the law and follows it with But I say...

And in every case - magnifying it - not diminishing it or saying " don't be concerned with that ".

Even the majority of pro-sunday scholarshp get that Bible detail.

Neither Jeremiah nor Paul say the covenant made at Sinai is written on the heart and mind. An honest exegesis will prove this point in my favor.

Sadly for your argument - exegesis demands that we define terms such as "LAW" as the author of Jer 31:31-33 and his readers would have understood it.

Your argument does not survive exegesis of the text.

Since you revived that peanut Gallery thread now closed. Your tormentor was well known and despised by your group for doing such. .

A little less cryptic please.

Not sure who "tormentor" is or who is being despised by who -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[AndOne]

The point is not that differences are not allowed - the point is that there is no way to bend/wrench this into "only SDAs see the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant" -- all such arguments fail in light of the OP, where it is noticed that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the TEN commandments being in the moral law of god.


in Christ,

Bob

It doesn't make the SDA right though.

 

[listed]

The point is not that differences are not allowed - the point is that there is no way to bend/wrench this into "only SDAs see the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant" -- all such arguments fail in light of the OP, where it is noticed that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the TEN commandments being in the moral law of god.


in Christ,

Bob

What would you like to see? Me to say they are correct? Would that not be agreeing with the SDA position? Rarely do you see SDA in my posting unless it is mentioned as you have. you are making it an SDA issue. Those you wish to discuss do not post here. They can not defend themselves. Maybe that is why you talk so much about them.

 

[listed]

Paul does not say that as Christians "we admit the Law exists". He argues that our FAITH establishes the Law of God and we see that in Rev 14:12 in the case of the "saints who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus".

Neither does Paul say Christians are required to keep the law. If 1 reads the man at all they could never come to this conclusion because Paul even says to throw the law out (say about Gal 4:30).

Another point that the OP would find affirmed in the case of even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship.

What other point are you talking about?

Not even remotely.

"what matters is KEEPING the Law of God" 1Cor 7:19 - said Paul

Rom 8:5-8 only the lost do not keep the Law of God and are in fact unnable to keep it -- said Paul.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God!" Rom 3:31 - said Paul.

What exactly do you think establish the law means? Does it mean Christians are subject to it?

"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind through Jesus Christ" Rom 2:13-16. --- said Paul

The trouble with that is there are no doers of the law per Psalms for starters. You can not find any in the NT either. Yeah bring up Elisabeth and Zacharias.

The 5th commandment "is the FIrST Commandment" with a promise -- in that unit of TEN -- Eph 6:2 -- said Paul.

Why is Paul not admonishing them to keep other laws? Keeping 1 out of 613 is hardly keeping the law. Again I ask how Paul can say keep the law while he says to throw it out? You have to be confused or Paul is a double tongued liar. Which is it? Do not tell me it is Paul whose writing you cite is not Scripture.

Christ is the 'GOAL of the Law" the Objective - the point to which the LAW leads - as Paul points out in Romans 10.

Yes it is. When 1 reaches or completes a goal it is finished. You have a self defeating argument here.

James 2:11 "He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder." - said James

What else did James say in chapter 2? Is James requiring the keeping of the law? No!!!!!!!

No wonder the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship chooses not to be at war with these Bible facts.

in Christ,

Bob

No wonder why they and you are confused.

 

[listed]

Indeed you may wish to correct them. My point is that it is not just the Bible and seventh day Sabbath keeping Christians that point out the flaw in your argument.

Neither point out a flaw in my argument.

Indeed - the moral of the story according to Christ "If they do not believe Moses - they will not believe though one rises from the dead".

Who might that include? I hear and believe every word of Moses. I also believe and hear every word of the prophets, Jesus and the authors of the NT. You?

No wonder James is so happy that "Moses is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath" Acts 15. For - he is someone who believes "though one rises from the dead".

Where do you get the mood of James from?

And in every case - magnifying it - not diminishing it or saying " don't be concerned with that ".

Ah you admit the law changed in scope. Magnifying means to increase. Just another self destroying argument.

Even the majority of pro-sunday scholarshp get that Bible detail.

What detail? Which one of them says Jesus is teaching the law?

Sadly for your argument - exegesis demands that we define terms such as "LAW" as the author of Jer 31:31-33 and his readers would have understood it.

Be my guest and do so for us. This argument has already been proven false.

Your argument does not survive exegesis of the text.

You offer nothing. So would this merely be a personal attack on the poster?

A little less cryptic please.

Not sure who "tormentor" is or who is being despised by who -

Oh pleeeeeaaaaseeeee!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JohnRabbit]

I hear and believe every word of Moses. I also believe and hear every word of the prophets, Jesus and the authors of the NT.

You do?

do you hear and believe this?

Matthew 19:17(NKJV)
17...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

 

[listed]

You do?

do you hear and believe this?

Matthew 19:17(NKJV)
17...But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Yes I do. Unfortunately you give it meaning it does not present. You have divorced words out of context and in disagreement with the rest of Scripture.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yes I do. Unfortunately you give it meaning it does not present. You have divorced words out of context and in disagreement with the rest of Scripture.

Not to mention Paul equates the Law as a ministration of death such that breaking (not keeping) means "not life" so one could conclude Jesus as correct and in agreement with Paul on this.

 

[mercy1061]

Not to mention Paul equates the Law as a ministration of death such that breaking (not keeping) means "not life" so one could conclude Jesus as correct and in agreement with Paul on this.

How so? Do not all men die? The law speaks the truth.

 

[Sophrosyne]

How so? Do not all men die? The law speaks the truth.

So people that die by the Law (stoned to death) are dead the same by Jesus words as those who do not die by the Law?

 

[BobRyan]

The point is not that differences are not allowed - the point is that there is no way to bend/wrench this into "only SDAs see the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant" -- all such arguments fail in light of the OP, where it is noticed that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits to the TEN commandments being in the moral law of god.

It doesn't make the SDA right though.

Indeed. Only a sola-scriptura Bible study of the point can show the SDA position on the TEN Commandments to be right.

But the objectivity demonstrated in the fact that the Bible points promoted in the SDA (and other groups posting here as well) position are so glaringly that even the majority of scholarship in the opposing camp agree with them -- (while a minority the opposing camp differ with their own group on those points) -- cannot be so easily ignored by objective unbiased Bible students.

And what is more that obvious detail cannot be "bent" into "only SDAs notice those Bible details in favor of the TEN Commandments".

Which I think is a point that is hard for the CF group in general to ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not to mention Paul equates the Law as a ministration of death such that breaking (not keeping) means "not life" so one could conclude Jesus as correct and in agreement with Paul on this.

Paul said

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Paul said

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Eph 6:2 Paul says the 5th Commandment "is the FIRST Commandment with a promise"

Paul said

"It is not the hearers of of the LAW that are Just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED.. on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

Here we have a list of Bible "details" that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship mentioned in the OP would agree with -- not just just SDAs.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

But listed said -- "Jesus did not teach nor bring the law according to JN 1:17. Jesus gave His own commandments "

How instructive then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholars admit to the Matt 5 Bible facts and do not insert the text of listed's doctrine into John 1:17.

Christ said in Luke 16 that those who refuse to listen to Moses are not really listening to the one who rose from the dead either. And the reason for that is that is seen in Christ's teaching Matt 5 and in Mark 7:6-13 where the Commandments of God are strongly affirmed by Christ - the Giver of the Law.

His position is that the Law is codified in stone at the time of Moses - and Grace comes in flesh in the form of Christ. BOTH remain in the New Covenant where Jeremiah 31:31-33 says that the LAW of God as known to Jeremiah is "written on the heart and mind" and Paul affirms this in Heb 8.

Another Bible point the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship accepts gladly.​

​

Originally Posted by listed [

It is not my fault your pro-Sunday scholars do not consider LK 24:44 nor Heb 7:12 in regard to your charge. Maybe I should found a school and give them a scholarship.​

​

Indeed you may wish to correct them. My point is that it is not just the Bible and seventh day Sabbath keeping Christians that point out the flaw in your argument.

You need to read LK 16. Maybe Jesus quoted Abraham about one raising from the dead.​

​

Indeed - the moral of the story according to Christ "If they do not believe Moses - they will not believe though one rises from the dead".

No wonder James is so happy that "Moses is preached in the synagogues every Sabbath" Acts 15. For - he is someone who believes "though one rises from the dead".

Jesus does not teach the law in Mat 5 as contended. Jesus quotes the law and follows it with But I say...​

​

And in every case - magnifying it - not diminishing it or saying " don't be concerned with that ".

Even the majority of pro-sunday scholarshp get that Bible detail.

Neither Jeremiah nor Paul say the covenant made at Sinai is written on the heart and mind. An honest exegesis will prove this point in my favor.
​

Sadly for your argument - exegesis demands that we define terms such as "LAW" as the author of Jer 31:31-33 and his readers would have understood it.

Your argument does not survive exegesis of the text.

Since you revived that peanut Gallery thread now closed. Your tormentor was well known and despised by your group for doing such. .​

​

A little less cryptic please.

Not sure who "tormentor" is or who is being despised by who -

Neither point out a flaw in my argument.Who might that include? I hear and believe every word of Moses. I also believe and hear every word of the prophets, Jesus and the authors of the NT. You? Where do you get the mood of James from?Ah you admit the law changed in scope. Magnifying means to increase. Just another self destroying argument.What detail? Which one of them says Jesus is teaching the law?Be my guest and do so for us. This argument has already been proven false.You offer nothing.

Clearly we differ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by listed

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"
​

Establish does not mean in force. I certainly acknowledge the existence of the law.
​

Paul does not say that as Christians "we admit the Law exists". He argues that our FAITH establishes the Law of God and we see that in Rev 14:12 in the case of the "saints who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their Faith in Jesus".

Another point that the OP would find affirmed in the case of even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship.


Originally Posted by listed

To argue in that way invalidates everything else Paul said about the law
​

Not even remotely.

Rom 8:5-8 only the lost do not keep the Law of God and are in fact unnable to keep it -- said Paul.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God!" Rom 3:31 - said Paul.

"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind through Jesus Christ" Rom 2:13-16. --- said Paul

The 5th commandment "is the FIRST Commandment" with a promise -- in that unit of TEN -- Eph 6:2 -- said Paul.


Christ is the 'GOAL of the Law" the Objective - the point to which the LAW leads - as Paul points out in Romans 10.

James 2:11 "He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder." - said James

No wonder the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship chooses not to be at war with these Bible facts.



"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 - said Paul

Neither does Paul say Christians are required to keep the law. If 1 reads the man at all they could never come to this conclusion

I find your logic illusive just then when it is given in response to the texts in the post your are responding to.

As for Paul's "Gospel"

"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind through Jesus Christ" Rom 2:13-16. --- said Paul

The trouble with that is there are no doers of the law per Psalms for starters. You can not find any in the NT either.

Again the logic in your post is illusive given that it is a response to my quoting Paul's Gospel point in Romans 2 and the coming judgment.

Again I ask how Paul can say keep the law while he says to throw it out?

You quoted no "throw out the Law" text. It not sufficient to simply "quote you" to make the point work.



"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God!" Rom 3:31 - said Paul.

You have a self defeating argument here.What else did James say in chapter 2? Is James requiring the keeping of the law? No!!!!!!!No wonder why they and you are confused.

You might want to read James 2.


8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.



10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.



11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Ex 20) also said, “Do not commit murder.” (Ex 20) Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.



12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.


The bible is clear.


in Christ,


Bob