Irrefutable evidence of 4th Commandment support by pro-Sunday sources

[BobRyan]

Since the current CF system bug does not allow the OP to be quoted - let's try this...

============================================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================
In line with those 6 points we have ...

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

--------------------------

Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody)
=========================================


Here is an example of a straw-man complaint about the OP where the straw-man nature of it was clearly exposed -- #772

It is a case where I show that the straw-man statement did not exist at all in the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

And "of course" now the CF system bug does not allow the post above to be quoted...

 

[Cribstyl]

This thread is dead. your objective is not to present God's word as truth.

 

[Angelquill]

This thread is dead. your objective is not to present God's word as truth.

We have moderators to make decisions like that.
God bless 'em, they have their work cut out for them.
Let's make their job easier, and stay on the topic, shall we?
If we don't have anything to add, the thread will die all by itself...

 

[BobRyan]

I would point out - that the solution I show as failing -- the one that says "I did something some place I just can't point to it -- but it was really good and convincing" is not the substantive response to the OP that some may have at first imagined to themselves.

A link or a post of some point that they think makes their case - is the "normal thing" to do on a discussion thread.

I think we all knew that ... so I am just stating the obviouis.

The reason we get the "I wish I could show some substantive fact that the OP 7 points are not promoted by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship" idea presented so often - is that if you notice carefully almost every thread title currently active on this board deals with one of the 7 points that even pro-sunday scholarship affirms.

How ... instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[listed]

We have moderators to make decisions like that.
God bless 'em, they have their work cut out for them.
Let's make their job easier, and stay on the topic, shall we?
If we don't have anything to add, the thread will die all by itself...

Placing myself at risk for participating in off topic stuff decisions like this are not made by staff unless complained about. And yes a sister thread to this was closed for stuff like this. This thread was opened to go around a thread closure by staff.

 

[listed]

The reason we get the "I wish I could show some substantive fact that the OP 7 points are not promoted by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship" idea presented so often - is that if you notice carefully almost every thread title currently active on this board deals with one of the 7 points that even pro-sunday scholarship affirms.

How ... instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

In this current version you present no proof of anything. These claims have been refuted from the same web sites you quoted in your old thread.

 

[Angelquill]

But what is the Sabbath?

It was never about a designated day of worship.
It was only ever about a day of rest.
If you try to make it about more than that, then, yes...you are trying to bring us back into the old covenant, just as the "grace camp" accuses.
You might as well go ahead and tell us that we must all give up shrimp...which I don't like anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem for me...and that we must not wear clothing with mixed materials...which would be extremely difficult to find in department stores these days, and what would I wear to swim in?
I keep saying...the fourth commandment...which is really the only one of the ten that anyone has a quarrel with, was never about what day to go to church. If you want to go to church on Saturday, there's nothing wrong with that...as long as you aren't trying to push your views on people who don't want to go to church on Saturday. Sunday, the day the Lord rose from the tomb, is a fine day to worship Him.

The fourth commandment, just like all the other nine, is really about love. Love God enough to observe the day He sanctified from the very beginning. And love your neighbor enough to give him a blessed day of rest.

All this foolish arguing is pointless...except that telling people that there is no more law is just as dangerous today as it was 2000 years ago. If the apostles had told their new Gentile converts that the ten commandments had been abolished, we'd all be worshipping pagan gods today. And telling the churches that has resulted in some very strange notions...my own beloved Episcopal church now ordains gay ministers...to think, we must now call a gay man "Father". I had to leave the church I grew up in over this nonsense...all because one group wants to control when the other group goes to church.

When will people wake up???????????

 

[listed]

Since the current CF system bug does not allow the OP to be quoted - let's try this...

============================================

Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.


Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

================================
In line with those 6 points we have ...

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

==========================================================
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments (see point 5 below) AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.

1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16

--------------------------

Since some have not looked up the referenced -- I added the info for them here -- #297 (Baptist Confession of Faith)

#13 (D.L. Moody)
=========================================


Here is an example of a straw-man complaint about the OP where the straw-man nature of it was clearly exposed -- #772

It is a case where I show that the straw-man statement did not exist at all in the OP.

This is old news already responded to with no counter response to content.

 

[listed]

But what is the Sabbath?

It was never about a designated day of worship.
It was only ever about a day of rest.
If you try to make it about more than that, then, yes...you are trying to bring us back into the old covenant, just as the "grace camp" accuses.
You might as well go ahead and tell us that we must all give up shrimp...which I don't like anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem for me...and that we must not wear clothing with mixed materials...which would be extremely difficult to find in department stores these days, and what would I wear to swim in?
I keep saying...the fourth commandment...which is really the only one of the ten that anyone has a quarrel with, was never about what day to go to church. If you want to go to church on Saturday, there's nothing wrong with that...as long as you aren't trying to push your views on people who don't want to go to church on Saturday. Sunday, the day the Lord rose from the tomb, is a fine day to worship Him.

The fourth commandment, just like all the other nine, is really about love. Love God enough to observe the day He sanctified from the very beginning. And love your neighbor enough to give him a blessed day of rest.

All this foolish arguing is pointless...except that telling people that there is no more law is just as dangerous today as it was 2000 years ago. If the apostles had told their new Gentile converts that the ten commandments had been abolished, we'd all be worshipping pagan gods today. And telling the churches that has resulted in some very strange notions...my own beloved Episcopal church now ordains gay ministers...to think, we must now call a gay man "Father". I had to leave the church I grew up in over this nonsense...all because one group wants to control when the other group goes to church.

When will people wake up???????????

Never!!!

But your off topic comment about swimwear is interesting. I suggest your God given suit.

 

[Angelquill]

Never!!!

But your off topic comment about swimwear is interesting. I suggest your God given suit.

Now that made me chuckle.


However, we do need to stay on the topic...my comment had to do with whether or not I may wear clothing made of two different materials.
Yours is....well, a tad different.
Very cute, though, and I'm sure the neighbors would be thrilled...well the men anyway. Probably not their wives, though

 

[bbbbbbb]

Now that made me chuckle.


However, we do need to stay on the topic...my comment had to do with whether or not I may wear clothing made of two different materials.
Yours is....well, a tad different.
Very cute, though, and I'm sure the neighbors would be thrilled...well the men anyway. Probably not their wives, though

I am waiting to hear from you exactly what "all that old stuff" is that God no longer considers to be valid for today.

Thank you.

 

[Angelquill]

I am waiting to hear from you exactly what "all that old stuff" is that God no longer considers to be valid for today.

Thank you.

The only law that is valid under the New Covenant, IMHO, would be the basics...that is, the Ten Commandments. These were all clarified in the New Testament.
And you are welcome.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The reason we get the "I wish I could show some substantive fact that the OP 7 points are not promoted by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship" idea presented so often - is that if you notice carefully almost every thread title currently active on this board deals with one of the 7 points that even pro-sunday scholarship affirms.

How ... instructive.

in Christ,

Bob

Your opinion is noted and rejected with ease.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The only law that is valid under the New Covenant, IMHO, would be the basics...that is, the Ten Commandments. These were all clarified in the New Testament.
And you are welcome.

It may, indeed, be your humble opinion, but, as such, it is only your opinion and not God's, unless you have scripture supporting your opinion.

 

[Angelquill]

It may, indeed, be your humble opinion, but, as such, it is only your opinion and not God's, unless you have scripture supporting your opinion.

Fair enough. For beginners, I will take Jesus Christ at His Word:

Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Jesus, Who ought to know, didn't think that the law was going anywhere any time soon.

In fact, He seemed to think that it was a pretty bad idea to tell folks that they need not obey them:

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Then there are His Two Great Commandments, which get a bit more specific:

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The first "Great Commandment" covers the first three of the Ten...Loving the Lord thy God.
The second covers all the rest of them.
The fourth one, which seems to be the one causing all the controversy, actually falls under both of these "Great Commandments". If you truly love the Lord thy God, would you not wish to honor Him by keeping the day He sanctified and made holy? It seems such a small thing to cause all this strife.
And if you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you balk at giving him a blessed day of rest?

I think we all need to heed His "New Commandment"...that we love one another. Did He not say that men would know His disciples by their love? Surely, He would know what the sign of a true disciple would be, wouldn't He?
I honestly believe that His true disciples will love one another...they won't indulge in the sort of tactics I've seen in these forums...the back biting, the mocking and belittling, the goading and provoking...
Those who do such things...well, they might just be having an "off" day. None of us is perfect all the time, if we were we wouldn't need a Savior in the first place.
But there seem to be a few who indulge in it almost constantly. Now, it is not up to me to judge anyone...that privilege belongs to God alone. But I do have to wonder...folks who indulge in such things may not need to worry about what the New Covenant is or what it is not. There is a very good possibility that it may not apply to them anyway.
Perhaps the more serious problem is that their hearts are not right with God...

 

[BobRyan]

This is old news already responded to with no counter response to content.

A nice story - never proven in real life -- but a story some have enjoyed telling all the while never posting any evidence that such a thing ever happened.

That seems to be the "trend" so far.

And who am I to complain about it... I prefer to have opposition to the OP presented in such a way as to never show any evidence of the claims made - because as I have pointed out so often - there is no evidence of those complaints holding up under close review.

What has been proven is that the 7 points in the OP are indeed affirmed - strongly affirmed by even pro-Sunday sources.

What has been proven is that most of those who post as being at war with Christ's Creation Memorial commandment - are also at war with all SEVEN points affirmed by the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship.

And the "new thing" that is about to be proven is that sooo many of those who want to be at war with the commandments of God - "wish" they had been able to refute the fact that the 7 points in the OP are affirmed by the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

I would point out - that the solution I show as failing -- the one that says "I did something some place I just can't point to it -- but it was really good and convincing" is not the substantive response to the OP that some may have at first imagined to themselves.

A link or a post of some point that they think makes their case - is the "normal thing" to do on a discussion thread.

I think we all knew that ... so I am just stating the obviouis.

​

The reason we get the "I wish I could show some substantive fact that the OP 7 points are not promoted by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship" idea presented so often - is that if you notice carefully almost every thread title currently active on this board deals with one of the 7 points that even pro-sunday scholarship affirms.

How ... instructive.
============================

Maco gets a prize for this one -- #1

He came up with a subject title - pro-Sabbath that the pro-sunday scholarship promoting ALL SEVEN points in the OP here - would not agree with.

 

[BobRyan]

Even Cribstyl's "Sabbath was made for man" thread title is worded just as the pro-Sunday sources (not just pro seventh day Sabbath sources) would have it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Proud Parrot]

God's word in Revelation forbids changing anything in scripture. Scripture says not one jot nor tittle of the law will be done away with until heaven and earth pass away.
Meanwhile, Christians continually argue so as to dismiss the meaning of scripture in Exodus 20:8–11. The sabbath day being the seventh day, Saturday. And instead create in the process an eight day week. Making sabbath on a Sunday instead.

I bet Nimrod would be quite pleased at our present day state of chaos.