Rapture Before Wrath

[Daniel1136]

The "last trumpet" that Paul speaks of is the last trumpet sounding for the believing church

You can find the first trumpet sounding for the church here [Revelation 1:10] .... the Lord bringing His first formal revealings and evaluations of the church [Revelation 2; 3]

Next the Lord's coming judgment .... the things "hereafter" beginning in chapter 4 and continuing to the details of the judgment [chapters 8-19]

The 7 judgment trumps and the 7 bowels are all related to His judgment period of the tribulation only .... none of these incorporates a resurrection of anyone

Those who become believers during the judgment will either be martyred and resurrected at the end of it, or will survive and will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals

The tribulation martyrs [Revelation 6:9-11] and the Lord's two prophets [Revelation 11:11-12] will be resurrected just at the ending of the tribulation period

The last trumpet just after the tribulation will herald the gathering of believing mortal survivors of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... then the Lord gather all of the surviving Gentiles of the nations and separate them [Matthew 25:31-46]

 

[Bro in Christ]

last trumpet of the day of Christ
last trumpet at the end the the Great Tribulation
last trumpet of battle
last trumpet of the day of the Lord
last trumpet of the day of God


define last trumpet at every location please

 

[BABerean2]

last trumpet of the day of Christ
last trumpet at the end the the Great Tribulation
last trumpet of battle
last trumpet of the day of the Lord
last trumpet of the day of God


define last trumpet at every location please

I am not sure about the "last trumpet of battle", but all of the others are the same trumpet.

There is only one last trumpet.

If you have any doubt, get out a dictionary and look up the word "last".



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


If you disagree with this viewpoint, show a trumpet after the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11:15.

I am not talking about some conjecture about a Jewish feast, I mean give the scripture showing a trumpet after the 7th trumpet of Revelation.




.

 

[Riberra]

First off, this is wrong. Christians are spiritually saved soon as we accepted John 3:16.

Christians are saved from eternal death at the first resurrection when they will receive their immortal body at Jesus Second Coming...

We don't need to go through the tribulation, refusing the mark of the beast and get our head cut off for Christ's gift of Salvation..

Because the Great Tribulation have not come yet ... but ,if it was to begin tomorrow ...

Second, this is the wrong comparison. There's the rapture and there's the second coming. Matthew 24:29 is not what happens during the rapture. Nowhere does it say so.

The rapture will happen at Jesus Second Coming near the End of the Great Tribulation.

You're just ignoring John 14:3 which is what happens during the rapture.

John 14:3 (NKJV)
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Riberra, what part of "I will come again" do you not understand?

"I will come again"
Is Jesus Second Coming near the End of the great tribulation

This is also a wrong comparison. There's the rapture and the resurrection. 1 Thess 4 is the rapture. 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection.

Both will happen at the same time...
At Jesus Second Coming near the END of the tribulation
The deads in Christ are rise first in their immortal body ,then WE Christians still alive and remaining will receive our immortal body too -in a blink of an eye-.Then we are caught up(raptured) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

If you still wanna argue this, explain
how will Christ be able to kill the antichrist and his army if everyone is immortal?

I have explained to you many time that only those who were dead in Christ and the Christians still alive will receive their immortal body at that moment.All the others humans on Earth will be in their mortal body.

Read all of 1 Cor chapter 15. Now also explain this, why does Paul make a comparison of Christ to Adam? why does Paul talk about Adam so much in verses 22, 45 & 47? What does Adam have to do with the rapture?

Why are all enemies defeated here, including death. All, everyone and everything that causes sin, including death will be defeated. And it said death is the least enemy to be defeated.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If everything is defeated in the rapture, why will God release Satan at the end of the millennium? 1 Cor said all enemies, even death will be defeated.

Try answering those questions.

Not everything is defeated immediately at Jesus Second Coming that is why he come to reign during the Millennium
You must use your brain and read carefully what is written in a verse...
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

And concerning the last trump, you're doing exactly what those people probably did making the error trying to figure out 1 Cor 15:51-55 by looking at the words "last trump."

They made the conclusion because of those two words thinking this must imply the trumpets in the tribulation because there are 7th trumpets. Wrong analogy and wrong approach.

Instead, if you study all of 1 Cor 15, you should be able to figure out what the last trump is. Study the scripture first to know what the trump is, not the trump in order to figure out what the scripture means.

The Last Trump is the Trump of God... who will sound after the Seven trumps of Revelation...

 

[shturt678s]

Christians are saved from eternal death at the first resurrection when they will receive their immortal body at Jesus Second Coming...

Because the Great Tribulation have not come yet ... but ,if it was to begin tomorrow ...

Only a head's up, Christians are saved upon each one's passing being the 1st part of "1" resurrection where each living soul enters heaven, where they receive their new bodies at Jesus' 2nd Coming. Secondly we're nearing the bitter end of the "tribulation, the great one" where the "Rapture" = "Parousia" at the end.

The rapture will happen at Jesus Second Coming near the End of the Great Tribulation.

"I will come again"
Is Jesus Second Coming near the End of the great tribulation


Both will happen at the same time...
At Jesus Second Coming near the END of the tribulation
The deads in Christ are rise first in their immortal body ,then WE Christians still alive and remaining will receive our immortal body too -in a blink of an eye-.Then we are caught up(raptured) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

I have explained to you many time that only those who were dead in Christ and the Christians still alive will receive their immortal body at that moment.All the others humans on Earth will be in their mortal body.

Not everything is defeated immediately at Jesus Second Coming that is why he come to reign during the Millennium
You must use your brain and read carefully what is written in a verse...
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.


The Last Trump is the Trump of God... who will sound after the Seven trumps of Revelation...

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Manasseh_]

Only a head's up, Christians are saved upon each one's passing being the 1st part of "1" resurrection where each living soul enters heaven, where they receive their new bodies at Jesus' 2nd Coming. Secondly we're nearing the bitter end of the "tribulation, the great one" where the "Rapture" = "Parousia" at the end.



Old Jack's opinion

a soul in scripture regarding humans and animals is defined as a living breathing being, when a soul 'passes' (dies), stops breathing it does not ascend, they go to the grave, Christ himself said no one has ascended to heaven except himself since his origin is from heaven...........Peter stated that even David has not ascended to heaven........souls are not already immortal , souls die and the very heart of salvation is that Christ raises dead souls to immortality at his coming

 

[BABerean2]

a soul in scripture regarding humans and animals is defined as a living breathing being, when a soul 'passes' (dies), stops breathing it does not ascend, they go to the grave, Christ himself said no one has ascended to heaven except himself since his origin is from heaven...........Peter stated that even David has not ascended to heaven........souls are not already immortal , souls die and the very heart of salvation is that Christ raises dead souls to immortality at his coming

Was Christ confused in the verses below?

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mar_12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Luk_10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Was Luke confused about the soul and flesh being different in the verse below?


Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Was the Apostle Paul confused in the verse below?

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You may want to carefully consider who may be confused in this situation.

.

 

[Manasseh_]

Was Christ confused in the verses below?

Mat_22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mar_12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Luk_10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Was Luke confused about the soul and flesh being different in the verse below?


Act_2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Was the Apostle Paul confused in the verse below?

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You may want to carefully consider who may be confused in this situation.

.

it's all to obvious there is no confusion in any of these verses, but they do not teach or say in any way what you imply, ie, that a soul is already immortal, man was created from dust and returns to dust, there is no conscious being among the dead , the dead know nothing, resurrection is required for a dead soul to rise to life again and that is only through Christ on the last day at his coming...........a soul according to scripture is a living breathing being ie, alive by breathing, (hebrew nephesh)...........scripture does not define a soul in any way as being immortal already......this alone would contradict the scriptural teaching of resurrection or even the need for resurrection....................you may want to carefully consider what scripture teaches rather than let popular belief influence you..........PROVE ALL THINGS

 

[Bible2]

Manasseh said in post 369:

. . . there is no conscious being among the dead

Only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

--

Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13).

 

[iamlamad]

What's black and white is you're refusing to accept what the bible is saying. Read all that I wrote to Riberra above.

None of these events can happen if 1 Cor 15 is the rapture.

~ It would mean no one can die during the tribulation.

~ It would mean Christ will not be able to defeat the antichrist and his army because they are immortal.

~ It would mean the immediate passing away of the natural realm and the coming return of the spirit realm. (Rev 21:1).

~ It would mean all enemies, even death eliminated at the rapture.

~ It would mean satan also defeated and can not be released at the end of the millennium.

.

Let's take this a portion at a time. First, I am not "refusing" to accept. The ball is in your court to prove what you say by scripture. If you prove it by scripture, I will certainly accept it.

~ It would mean no one can die during the tribulation.

WHY? That is an unproven statement of theory. The rapture is for those "IN CHRIST" only. I think you are reading more into the 1 Cor. text than is there. Paul writes "WE shall not all sleep." In 1 Thes. he identifies the "we" as those "in Christ." Therefore the rapture will have NO AFFECT on those in the tribulation. In fact, Paul identifies the same group here in 1 Cor.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

First he identifies the time as Christ's coming. then he identifies WHO as in "those who are Christ's." Please note that there is an ORDER to the resurrections. As I showed before, the resurrection of the UNJUST will be over a thousand years from the rapture/resurrection.

~It would mean Christ will not be able to defeat the antichrist and his army because they are immortal.

They are NOT imortal, because the rapture/resurrection is for those "IN CHRIST" only. This resurrection (at the rapture - pretrib) is for the Bride of Christ ONLY. There is nothing in 1 Cor. That tells us anything different.

~ It would mean the immediate passing away of the natural realm and the coming return of the spirit realm. (Rev 21:1).

No it would not! Please show us the verse or verses in 1 Cor. 15 that would give you this idea?

~ It would mean all enemies, even death eliminated at the rapture.

Death IS ELIMINATED, but ONLY for those "in Christ." That is who the rapture is for.

~ It would mean satan also defeated and can not be released at the end of the millennium.

Why? Remember, death is the FINAL enemy to be defeated. It is not totally defeated at the rapture, for people will still die and people will still be dead and in hell until LONG after the rapture.

Did I just not understand what you mean? Have I missed a verse somewhere? Or are you reading something into 1 Cor. 15 that is not there? If there are verses to back up your theories here, I am all ears, so to speak. However, I don't think there are.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

...
None of these would make sense or happen during the rapture. This resurrection is a huge event that will also usher in the return of the supernatural. It will be the mother of all resurrections and isn't one that will happen without a sounding of the trumpet either. Actually the mother of all resurrections happened 2000 years ago when Christ rose but on a quantitative sense, this resurrection could easily be more then 10 times larger then that of the rapture.

You are reading FAR MORE into 1 Cor. 15 than is really there. Paul already TOLD US that this resurrection is limited to those who are IN CHRIST.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Jesus was the very first human to receive a resurrection body. The next group will be those who are "in Christ" or Christ's [shows ownership] which is EXACTLY what Paul shows us in 1 Thes. This rapture event will take place BEFORE the 70th week and as the trigger for the Day of the Lord, showing us that in Revelation it will be just before the 6th seal. (For further proof, the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age, and they are told they must wait for the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs.) It is the rapture that ENDS the church age, and begins the Day of the Lord. John shows us that the Day begins at the 6th seal.

usher in the return of the supernatural.

Indeed, it WILL - but ONLY for the bride of Christ. However, there are many "supernatural" events happening in the church today.

You are reading into this far more than is there: this 1 Cor. 15 Resurrection is FOR THE BRIDE OF CHRIST ONLY.

Since Adam and Eve and before Christ, only those that walked in faith with God are justified being part of the FirstFruit of Christ. However, billions and billions of people never had the opportunity to know and accept Christ's gift of Salvation over the last 6000 years. They will finally get their opportunity to stand before God and accept Christ.

Please show us a scripture for this theory of a second chance?

This is such a huge and important event in the history of man, do you think it would make sense for Paul to go into great details elaborating twice about the rapture and none the resurrection?

Yes. Did you not read these verses?

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

Paul did not cover much of this information in 1 Thes. I think the Holy Spirit wanted us to know. Why do you separate rapture and resurrection? They are really the SAME EVENT! First the dead in Christ are resurrected, then we who are alive and in Christ receive our "resurrection" bodies. It happens almost at the same instant in Time. And, you have been ignoring this verse in your theory:

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

1st Cor. 15 is NOT "the mother of all resurrections." It is for those "in Christ" ONLY.

Read this. The resurrection with the changing mortality to immortality and the coming of the new heaven and new earth happens all in a few verses from Rev 20:12-21:2.

Yes, but God can move 1000 years in ONE VERSE.

The last enemy to be destroy is death. Death destroy in 1 Cor 15:54-55. Death destroy in Rev 20:14. Scriptures don't lie.

For those "in Christ," death will be destroyed at the rapture. But moments after the rapture, Paul's sudden destruction - a great, worldwide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising - will kill millions. Remember what Paul wrote: "And they shall not escape." (1 Thes. 5)

The great, white throne judgment comes LONG (well over one thousand years) AFTER Paul's rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:26 (NKJV)
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 (NKJV)
54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55) “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

Revelation 20:14 (NKJV)
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Do you even acknowledge that AFTER the rapture and AFTER the 70th week of Daniel there will be a 1000 year Reign of Christ on earth?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

After reading all of 1 Cor 15, when do you think? Paul said it 100% accurately. Only man's interpretation of the last trumpet is wrong. It's just as it said, the LAST trumpet.

This ain't hard to figure out if you know 1 Cor 15.

So I guess you think God will send angels to take all the trumpets off of planet earth, and God Himself will remove even the memory of trumpets from our minds, so there can NEVER, EVER be another trumpet blast? I think that is a silly idea. I suspect there will be trumpets in the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Therefore we must QUALIFY what Paul meant by "last trump." My guess - only a guess - is that is the very last trumpet blast OF THE CHURCH AGE.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

The "last trumpet" that Paul speaks of is the last trumpet sounding for the believing church

You can find the first trumpet sounding for the church here [Revelation 1:10] .... the Lord bringing His first formal revealings and evaluations of the church [Revelation 2; 3]

Next the Lord's coming judgment .... the things "hereafter" beginning in chapter 4 and continuing to the details of the judgment [chapters 8-19]

The 7 judgment trumps and the 7 bowels are all related to His judgment period of the tribulation only .... none of these incorporates a resurrection of anyone

Those who become believers during the judgment will either be martyred and resurrected at the end of it, or will survive and will enter His millennial kingdom as mortals

The tribulation martyrs [Revelation 6:9-11] and the Lord's two prophets [Revelation 11:11-12] will be resurrected just at the ending of the tribulation period

The last trumpet just after the tribulation will herald the gathering of believing mortal survivors of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... then the Lord gather all of the surviving Gentiles of the nations and separate them [Matthew 25:31-46]

(RE: your third point above:"hereafter" ) This is a theory - and a wrong theory at that. May I suggest you study the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5? Remember when you study, a vision can be of the past, present or future, and keep in mind, God did not have John write ONLY things to come. John has included some HISTORY in the book of Revelation.

Things to consider when studying chapters 4 & 5

1)WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be?

2) WHY was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended?

3) WHY in that first search for one worthy was Jesus not immediately found? If we read ahead, we KNOW He was found in a later search.

4) Finally, WHAT TIME IS IT in 5:6? What is happening at that moment that tells us exactly what time it is? (I don't mean the time of day - I mean the time of a significant event the bible spends much time showing us)

All this, the vision of the throne room, is the CONTEXT for the first seals. NO ONE should attempt to understand the seals without first understanding this CONTEXT for the seals.

(By the way, the first three questions GOD asked me - I heard His voice and His words. I could not answer any of them at the time. )

The 5th seal is for CHURCH AGE martyrs, not "tribulation" or 70th week martyrs. John has not yet even started the 70th week. The 70th week martyrs are found here:

Rev 15
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.


LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

last trumpet of the day of Christ
last trumpet at the end the the Great Tribulation
last trumpet of battle
last trumpet of the day of the Lord
last trumpet of the day of God


define last trumpet at every location please

You missed one: the last trumpet of the church age. That would be Paul's "last trump."

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I am not sure about the "last trumpet of battle", but all of the others are the same trumpet.

There is only one last trumpet.

If you have any doubt, get out a dictionary and look up the word "last".



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


If you disagree with this viewpoint, show a trumpet after the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11:15.

I am not talking about some conjecture about a Jewish feast, I mean give the scripture showing a trumpet after the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

.

So you DO think God will confiscate all trumpets the moment that 7th trumpet is sounded!

LAMAD

 

[Daniel1136]

(RE: your third point above:"hereafter" ) This is a theory


Well I am glad you think so, but I do not

The Lord's revelation is all about His next intervention to wrap up this current age ... and He is still waiting

There are a few historical back drops presented for overview like in Revelation 12 and 17

It just all depends upon one's base exegetical approach as to their interpretive preference and some people possess the right perspective and some don't

And some like to argue and bicker over their personalized persuasions

.... I don't

There is no game to play .... what will be is what will be

 

[bibletruth469]

That's right. The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism. ******* That's right, with regard to initial salvation. Also, believers, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety? The main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

There is no such thing as initial salvation. You are either saved or you are not. I know this is off the subject of rapture vs wrath but I thought it was important . Please look at Ephesians 1:13-14, " And you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation . Having believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit , guaranteeing our inheritance of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory". You see, salvation can't be taken away and once you have it, you can't lose it! However , many people think they have it and do not so they are very deceived. This is very unfortunate . That is why it is so important to get the true gospel out and accomplish the great commission !

 

[bibletruth469]

There is no such thing as initial salvation. You are either saved or you are not. I know this is off the subject of rapture vs wrath but I thought it was important . Please look at Ephesians 1:13-14, " And you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation . Having believed , you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit , guaranteeing our inheritance of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory". You see, salvation can't be taken away and once you have it, you can't lose it! However , many people think they have it and do not so they are very deceived. This is very unfortunate . That is why it is so important to get the true gospel out and accomplish the great commission !

For clarification , once a person becomes saved, they are justified and declared righteous .it is only through what Christ has done for us and it is not through works . Obedience has nothing to do with it. We can do nothing in our own power; it is only through the Holy Spirit that a person can become saved and that persons willingness to accept Christ into their life as lord and savior!

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 372:

It is the rapture that ENDS the church age . . .

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

[Bible2]

Daniel1136 said in post 377:

The Lord's revelation is all about His next intervention to wrap up this current age ...

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).