Rapture Before Wrath

[bibletruth469]

Your resource is Revelation 3:15-19 that must be included in the study There are those who think they are ready [saved] and are not for what ever reasons .... the professing church is full of them today Because they think they are, and are not .... they will go into the tribulation if they are living at the time The Lord specifically tells them that they then will have to repent .... because they obviously never did this in the first place, if they do He will accept them These were not saved in the first place .... and neither are those with out oil [the holy spirit] saved just the same He will not withdraw His offer of salvation during the tribulation period for those who will turn to Him during the period .... the evidence is in Revelation's unfolding There will be no believers on the earth at the inception of the tribulation, but there will be those who will turn and will be saved the same The problem .... the period will be very confusing and deceptive .... and very difficult for the earth dwellers at the time to deal with .... unfortunately billions will be killed without turning and lost forever As far as the left behind story .... this lacks much, and scriptural truths should never be subjected to a shallow and misleading book or movie ... not a good way to present truth .... two many holes

Many people like you say are ' professing' Christians and do not have a genuine faith and belief in Christ . They will not be part of the rapture of the church. Yes, some will come to faith during the tribulation but many more will be deceived and will believe the lie of the antichrist.

 

[bibletruth469]

Your definition of -saved- is far from the Scripture. Being saved does not mean being ready for the pre-tribulation rapture... who by the way will never happen. All Christians will have to go through the Great Tribulation if they are living at the time....those who will keep their Faith in Jesus Christ ie (not submitting to the Antichrist and the False Prophet by taking the mark of the Beast or his number) until the return of Jesus will be -spiritually- saved. The caught up/gathering (rapture) into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air will happen when Jesus return near the END of the Great Tribulation.....NOT PRE-TRIBULATION

There is only one way to be saved and that is through a genuine belief in Jesus Christ and to ask forgiveness for our sins and believe that he died for us and rose again to bring us new life. It doesn't matter how a person believes in their eschatology ( pre, mid, post) . Ones salvation is determined by the heart that only God knows. You can profess that you are a Christian , but only God knows each individual heart and whether or not they are of genuine faith .

 

[Daniel1136]

"Your definition of -saved- is far from the Scripture. Being saved does not mean being ready for the pre-tribulation rapture"


Being ready is being genuinely saved .... the timing of the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize His true ecclesia is an entirely different matter

If you are not ready whether dead or alive, you will only go here [Revelation 20:11-15]

So since you do not know when the Lord will come for you, you had better be ready

Could be before this day is over .... believe this

 

[n2thelight]

"Your definition of -saved- is far from the Scripture. Being saved does not mean being ready for the pre-tribulation rapture"


Being ready is being genuinely saved .... the timing of the Lord's "harpazo" action to immortalize His true ecclesia is an entirely different matter

If you are not ready whether dead or alive, you will only go here [Revelation 20:11-15]

So since you do not know when the Lord will come for you, you had better be ready

Could be before this day is over .... believe this

Christ cannot return at anytime,before the day is over is out of the question


Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation.

These are an exact overlay of the seven events, which are the seven seals that we should be watching for today.

Christ is about to tell everything that must happen before His return,Ive yet to hear a rapturist explain to me why,He's telling us all these things,if we're not going to be here....

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 341:

Why not just believe Luke 21:36 and be READY?

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 342:

Yes, some will come to faith during the tribulation but many more will be deceived and will believe the lie of the antichrist.

That's right.

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

*******

bibletruth469 said in post 343:

There is only one way to be saved and that is through a genuine belief in Jesus Christ and to ask forgiveness for our sins and believe that he died for us and rose again to bring us new life. It doesn't matter how a person believes in their eschatology ( pre, mid, post) .

That's right, with regard to initial salvation.

Also, believers, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

The main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[n2thelight]

By the way, how will the earth be replenished in the Millennial - if there are none left in natural bodies?



LAMAD

When Christ returns,the age of flesh man shall be over....There will be no natural bodies in the milennium.....

 

[Bible2]

n2thelight said in post 348:

When Christ returns,the age of flesh man shall be over....There will be no natural bodies in the milennium.....

Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:50? if so, it refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

n2thelight said in post 348:

When Christ returns,the age of flesh man shall be over....

Actually, no, just as when Christ was resurrected, the age of flesh man wasn't over.

--

Believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. The Bible shows that Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only that which is pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection or changing of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to revile the Creator God YHWH as some sort of evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe as a foul prison house for the free spirits of humans, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from a purely-spiritual heaven into the physical universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. No doubt the coming Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

 

[TPeterY]

When Christ returns,the age of flesh man shall be over....There will be no natural bodies in the milennium.....

Luke 24:36-43 (NKJV)
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
36) Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37) But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38) And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39) Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40) When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41) But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42) So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43) And He took it and ate in their presence.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+24%3A36-43&version=NKJV


.

 

[TPeterY]

Yeah ,i remember that you were not in agreement when i said that probably only the dead in Christ and Christ Believers still alive and remain will be changed into their immortal body at that moment.I said that because the context of the whole 1 Cor 15 chapter seemed to concern only Christ Believers... We (Jesus Christ Believers) shall not all sleep, but WE shall all be changed

Probably because you have none.

I have a question for you when is 1 Cor 15:51-55 going to happen ?

Well if you believe I have none, why bother asking me when it'll happen?

Rely on the bible, not a website. Primary source over secondary source.

 

[Rev20]

Christ cannot return at anytime,before the day is over is out of the question

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

This is the number one warning, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Deception will be the foremost thing to guard against in the latter days, that will consummate the end of this age. This means that these events will not happen all at one time, but will take place over a period of time. These warnings or signs that Jesus is about to give us, are the seven seals that are given us in the Book of Revelation.

I believe you took Christ's statement out of context by not including the next verse. This is the context:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." -- Matt 24:4-5​

The deception was the false christs. The Jews were expecting the Messiah because of the old testament prophecy, so there were charlatans claiming to be the messiah, or christ; as there were also false prophets, and later false apostles.

But why would Christ make that statement? Wouldn't his disciples recognize him?

I suspect he made that statement because he had no intention of ever returning to the earth, in bodily form, again. No matter what you have heard, there is not one verse in the New Testament that states he will ever physically set foot on the earth again.

So, what did Jesus say about meeting his disciples again?

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -- John 16:7-11​

As you can see, Jesus told his disciples they would never see him again. That is indisputable, and that is righteousness.

But, yet, John said:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -- 1Joh 3:2​

That is a powerful statement that turns all sorts of man-made doctrine on its head. John was the beloved disciple of Christ; yet John did not know what Christ would look like in the future. Therefore, if anyone claimed to be Christ, he could have fooled the disciples.

But how did Jesus handle that? He told them, "do not believe any of them, because it cannot possibly be me. I am going to the Father, and you will never see me again."

Of course, the disciples did "see" him as the Holy Spirit, because God is a spirit.

One other point: John, the beloved disciple, thought he was seeing Christ on Patmos, and he fell down at his feet to worship him. But it was not Christ, but his angel:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." -- Rev 22:16​

When Jesus said they would never see "him" again (implying his body), I believe he meant it.


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[Bible2]

Rev20 said in post 352:

. . . there is not one verse in the New Testament that states he will ever physically set foot on the earth again.

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' physical, visible return to the earth in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future, 2nd coming to the earth from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).

Similarly, Zechariah 14:4 confirms that Jesus will return physically to the earth.

-

It is sometimes claimed that Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at Jesus' first coming. But Jesus' first coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zechariah 14:1), for that won't begin until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' first coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zechariah 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). It will be at his 2nd coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Revelation 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives, just as he had ascended from the Mount of Olives at the end of his first coming (Acts 1:11-12).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zechariah 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' first coming, he didn't come with all the saints (Zechariah 14:5b). That will happen only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' first coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem was light at night (Zechariah 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean (Zechariah 14:8). And he didn't make himself King over the earth (Zechariah 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zechariah 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zechariah 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zechariah 14:12).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zechariah 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zechariah 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zechariah 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the feast of tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zechariah 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zechariah 14:17-19).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zechariah 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zechariah 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zechariah 14:21). Instead, at his first coming, Jesus left unbelieving Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Luke 13:35). Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:21).

Rev20 said in post 352:

John 16:7-11

John 16:10b didn't mean that the apostles would see Jesus no more forever, for John 16:16 explains that it is only "A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me", meaning that they wouldn't see him while they sorrowed while he lay dead in the tomb, but they would see him and rejoice at his physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (John 16:19-22, Luke 24:39,46).

 

[Riberra]

Well if you believe I have none, why bother asking me when it'll happen?

I have said "probably"because you have none.

Rely on the bible, not a website. Primary source over secondary source.

You don't seem prone to read it from the Bible or you have a very poor reading comprehension .
Because you will have noticed that the answer to that easy question is in verse 52
1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

-that event is going to happen at the last trump- as well as the Caught Up/Gathering in the CLOUDS to meet Jesus in the AIR at Jesus Second Coming which is going to happen After the great tribulation .

The Return of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:29
29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is a complementary information to 1 Cor 15:51-55 cited above

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Riberra]

Originally Posted by Riberra Your definition of -saved- is far from the Scripture.
Being saved does not mean being ready for the pre-tribulation rapture... who by the way will never happen.

All Christians will have to go through the Great Tribulation if they are living at the time....those who will keep their Faith in Jesus Christ ie (not submitting to the Antichrist and the False Prophet by taking the mark of the Beast or his number) until the return of Jesus will be -spiritually- saved.

The caught up/gathering (rapture) into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air will happen when Jesus return near the END of the Great Tribulation.....NOT PRE-TRIBULATION

You know if you throw out opinions like that without any scriptural support, it isn't any more valid than me throwing out my opinion claiming the antichrist is mickey mouse.

The Return of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:29
29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

 

[iamlamad]

Read all of what I wrote carefully. Then study all of 1 Cor 15. All, not just verses 51-55. If you can't figure it out, does that mean it's definately the rapture?




That's exactly my point. How will the earth get repopulated if we're all in immortal bodies and not natural bodies?




And if you haven't noticed yet, it said dead, not dead in Christ, shall raised incorruptible. And it also said "we shall be change." Where's any mentioning of a catching away or meeting Christ in the air? We just change. Think about this, there was one time in history where man also instantly change.


The bible mentions the 1st death (Hebrews 9:27) and the second death (Rev 20:13-14)

It also mentions the first resurrection (1 Thes 4:16, Rev 20:4-5). If there's a second death, there has to be a second resurrection. Show me where in the bible it mentions a second resurrection and you'll prove me wrong.

In the last 2000 years, the gospel was not preached throughout the world until this century through the internet. What about those in the first century that never knew about Christ or hear of the gospel in other parts of the world? What happens to them?

You can be wrong if you want to. It is up to God what happens to "them." I can say this: if there is ANY POSSIBLE WAY God can get them into heaven, HE will.

OF COURSE there is a second resurrection, but it is not called that. Just the fact that there is a "first" tells us there is a second, and John SHOWS Us the second one. But instead of saying first and second, lets just say there is an HONORABLE resurrection where all the righteous will be resurrected, EACH in his or her proper time. (All who take part in the first resurrection will not be raised at the same time.)

Then there is a dishonorable resurrection for all the sinners. They are risen LONG after those of the first resurrection. They are raised to face God at the white throne judgment.

Your theory falls far outside the "pale of orthodoxy" as Hank calls it. It is far from what any commentator tells us. And it is simply wrong. Those in hell stay in hell when those who lost their head are raised.

Did you ever read this one sentence?

"5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed."

There it is in black and white: ANOTHER resurrection.

LAMAD

 

[TPeterY]

All Christians will have to go through the Great Tribulation if they are living at the time....those who will keep their Faith in Jesus Christ ie (not submitting to the Antichrist and the False Prophet by taking the mark of the Beast or his number) until the return of Jesus will be -spiritually- saved.

First off, this is wrong. Christians are spiritually saved soon as we accepted John 3:16. We don't need to go through the tribulation, refusing the mark of the beast and get our head cut off for Christ's gift of Salvation..

The Return of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:29
29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

Second, this is the wrong comparison. There's the rapture and there's the second coming. Matthew 24:29 is not what happens during the rapture. Nowhere does it say so. You're just ignoring John 14:3 which is what happens during the rapture.

John 14:3 (NKJV)
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Riberra, what part of "I will come again" do you not understand?

I have said "probably"because you have none.

You don't seem prone to read it from the Bible or you have a very poor reading comprehension .
Because you will have noticed that the answer to that easy question is in verse 52
1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

-that event is going to happen at the last trump- as well as the Caught Up/Gathering in the CLOUDS to meet Jesus in the AIR at Jesus Second Coming which is going to happen After the great tribulation .

The Return of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:29
29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.…

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 is a complementary information to 1 Cor 15:51-55 cited above

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is also a wrong comparison. There's the rapture and the resurrection. 1 Thess 4 is the rapture. 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection.

If you still wanna argue this, explain how will Christ be able to kill the antichrist and his army if everyone is immortal?

Read all of 1 Cor chapter 15. Now also explain this, why does Paul make a comparison of Christ to Adam? why does Paul talk about Adam so much in verses 22, 45 & 47? What does Adam have to do with the rapture?

Why are all enemies defeated here, including death. All, everyone and everything that causes sin, including death will be defeated. And it said death is the least enemy to be defeated.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (NKJV)
25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If everything is defeated in the rapture, why will God release Satan at the end of the millennium? 1 Cor said all enemies, even death will be defeated.

Try answering those questions.

And concerning the last trump, you're doing exactly what those people probably did making the error trying to figure out 1 Cor 15:51-55 by looking at the words "last trump."

They made the conclusion because of those two words thinking this must imply the trumpets in the tribulation because there are 7th trumpets. Wrong analogy and wrong approach.

Instead, if you study all of 1 Cor 15, you should be able to figure out what the last trump is. Study the scripture first to know what the trump is, not the trump in order to figure out what the scripture means.



.

 

[iamlamad]

When Christ returns,the age of flesh man shall be over....There will be no natural bodies in the milennium.....

That is a theory: it is just a WRONG theory. The bible clearly shows that there will be people in natural bodies having children.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

1 Cor. 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Both spiritual death (separation from God; being born with a sin nature) and physical death came through Adam. Both spiritual life (being born again) and being changed into a resurrection body comes trough Jesus Christ.

Note that there is an ORDER: Jesus Christ was the first to receive a resurrection body. Then, AT CHRIST's COMING those who belong to Christ will receive their resurrection body.

Flesh and blood CANNOT enter the kingdom of heaven. So before those that are Christ's can get to heaven, WE MUST BE CHANGED.

So WHEN is Christ's coming where we will be changed? Paul tells us:

1 Thes. 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

It will be the moment that we are caught up that we are changed. THIS IS THE COMING MENTIONED in 1 Cor. 15. These are sister passages and we must put them together to get a complete picture.

1 Cor 15
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

WHEN will death finally be destroyed? Not until AFTER the Millennial reign, at the END, just before Jesus delivers the kingdom to Father God. There will still be death during the millennial reign of Christ.

1 Cor 15
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

As I said, flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. We MUST be changed.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHEN will this be?

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is the SAME trumpet, It will be the very last trumpet sound in the church age (the last 2000 years since the day of Pentecost). The moment that trumpet sounds and the dead are raised, the world will be facing the Day of the Lord. The trumpets sounding in Revelation will be DAY OF THE LORD and 70th week trumpets.

Make no mistake: 1 Cor. 15 is giving us MORE INFORMATION about the rapture event in 1 Thes. 4. These two passages are speaking of the very same event, which will be AT HIS COMING for His Bride.

LAMAD

 

[TPeterY]

You can be wrong if you want to. It is up to God what happens to "them." I can say this: if there is ANY POSSIBLE WAY God can get them into heaven, HE will.

OF COURSE there is a second resurrection, but it is not called that. Just the fact that there is a "first" tells us there is a second, and John SHOWS Us the second one. But instead of saying first and second, lets just say there is an HONORABLE resurrection where all the righteous will be resurrected, EACH in his or her proper time. (All who take part in the first resurrection will not be raised at the same time.)

Then there is a dishonorable resurrection for all the sinners. They are risen LONG after those of the first resurrection. They are raised to face God at the white throne judgment.

Your theory falls far outside the "pale of orthodoxy" as Hank calls it. It is far from what any commentator tells us. And it is simply wrong. Those in hell stay in hell when those who lost their head are raised.

Did you ever read this one sentence?

"5 The remainder of the dead were not restored to life again until the thousand years were completed."

There it is in black and white: ANOTHER resurrection.

LAMAD

What's black and white is you're refusing to accept what the bible is saying. Read all that I wrote to Riberra above.

None of these events can happen if 1 Cor 15 is the rapture.

~ It would mean no one can die during the tribulation.

~ It would mean Christ will not be able to defeat the antichrist and his army because they are immortal.

~ It would mean the immediate passing away of the natural realm and the coming return of the spirit realm. (Rev 21:1).

~ It would mean all enemies, even death eliminated at the rapture.

~ It would mean satan also defeated and can not be released at the end of the millennium.

None of these would make sense or happen during the rapture. This resurrection is a huge event that will also usher in the return of the supernatural. It will be the mother of all resurrections and isn't one that will happen without a sounding of the trumpet either. Actually the mother of all resurrections happened 2000 years ago when Christ rose but on a quantitative sense, this resurrection could easily be more then 10 times larger then that of the rapture.

Since Adam and Eve and before Christ, only those that walked in faith with God are justified being part of the FirstFruit of Christ. However, billions and billions of people never had the opportunity to know and accept Christ's gift of Salvation over the last 6000 years. They will finally get their opportunity to stand before God and accept Christ.

This is such a huge and important event in the history of man, do you think it would make sense for Paul to go into great details elaborating twice about the rapture and none the resurrection?

Read this. The resurrection with the changing mortality to immortality and the coming of the new heaven and new earth happens all in a few verses from Rev 20:12-21:2.

Revelation 20:12-21:2 (NKJV)
12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

All Things Made New

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2) Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+20%3A12-21%3A2&version=NKJV




1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (NKJV)
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55) “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+cor+15%3A51-55&version=NKJV

The last enemy to be destroy is death. Death destroy in 1 Cor 15:54-55. Death destroy in Rev 20:14. Scriptures don't lie.

1 Corinthians 15:26 (NKJV)
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 (NKJV)
54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55) “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

Revelation 20:14 (NKJV)
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Just an extra bit of info, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit while in the garden and everything around them changed, it happened in a blink of an eye. Their eyes were instantly open. They went of immortal to mortal. The world went from incorruptible (spiritual realm) to corruptible (natural realm).

Genesis 3:6-7 (NKJV)
6) So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7) Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

Watch this video. It'll show you the book of Revelation is the book of Genesis in reverse order. You'll know why there's a millennium ahead, why satan will be bound and release at the end and why things will happen as it did during Adam and Eve. It's why Christ is the second Adam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAH5v-5X1rI



.

 

[TPeterY]

1 Cor 15
[/COLOR]51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHEN will this be?


LAMAD

After reading all of 1 Cor 15, when do you think? Paul said it 100% accurately. Only man's interpretation of the last trumpet is wrong. It's just as it said, the LAST trumpet.

This ain't hard to figure out if you know 1 Cor 15.