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your thoughts on aliens/ extra terrestials?

SkyWriting

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I'm struggling to follow your argument.
Are you saying that because we haven't yet demonstrated abiogenesis and haven't yet found evidence of life outside this planet then its impossible for life to exist outside of this planet?

I'm saying that there are reasons for chemical compounds. We can observe what happens to elements and why we find them in the mixtures that we do and the places we find them.

There are no such indicators pointing toward the formation of life.
There is no good reason for life to form. I don't see how it helps the planet or helps the elements, or even follows the laws of entropy. There is no benefit for a planet to have life on it.

Now, if you were to show that all planets go through a "life stage" or something along those lines...you'd have a case for a natural excuse for life to exist. You'd say to me..."Many planets have a stage where they attract an atmosphere and they have the potential for life to form on them for a time. It's a normal part of the breakdown in the elements xxx, xx, xxxx, & xxx. "

Then you'd have a case for life to exist at all. But you have no case. Everything points to the conclusion that life is not natural. And I can prove it. Look at the way people who understand this act. They wet their pants of somebody even hints that life could exist somewhere else. They even put our search for water in our solar system AS IF finding water meant they had found life itself! They've lowered the bar so far that they will "have babies" if they find water on some moon somewhere. AS IF finding water was the same as finding life.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I'm saying that there are reasons for chemical compounds. We can observe what happens to elements and why we find them in the mixtures that we do and the places we find them.

There are no such indicators pointing toward the formation of life.
There is no good reason for life to form. I don't see how it helps the planet or helps the elements, or even follows the laws of entropy. There is no benefit for a planet to have life on it.

Now, if you were to show that all planets go through a "life stage" or something along those lines...you'd have a case for a natural excuse for life to exist. You'd say to me..."Many planets have a stage where they attract an atmosphere and they have the potential for life to form on them for a time. It's a normal part of the breakdown in the elements xxx, xx, xxxx, & xxx. "

Then you'd have a case for life to exist at all.

I can explain how the entropy thing works if you like.
 
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SkyWriting

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Personal testimony is only the next best thing if there is nothing else to go on. Courts of law discount testimony if any other evidence crops up, because it's well known that human memory is patchy at best - we remember selectively, we embellish, we literally fabricate brand new memories without even knowing it.

EXACTLY WHO in these imaginary courtrooms in your mind are tossing out personal testimony?

Is that
The judge?
the prosecution lawyer?
the defense lawyer?
the stenographer?

Or just you.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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EXACTLY WHO in these imaginary courtrooms in your mind are tossing out personal testimony?

Is that
The judge?
the prosecution lawyer?
the defense lawyer?
the stenographer?

Or just you.
Depends entirely on what kind of court and trial it is, and on when the testimony is introduced. It's entirely possible for defence lawyers to not submit witness statements as evidence for fear it will make their case look flimsy, especially if minor details conflict with established ones. When witness testimony contradicts DNA evidence, juries routinely follower the superior line of evidence (as well they should).

This isn't exactly a groundbreaking discovery. Eye witness testimony has been the weakest form of evidence for a long time, and is only getting weaker with DNA testing and CCTV surveillance. Why do you think most people don't seriously believe in UFOs? Because despite the thousands of eye witness testimony, there's just no solid evidence to back it up.
 
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SkyWriting

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Depends entirely on what kind of court and trial it is, and on when the testimony is introduced. It's entirely possible for defense lawyers to not submit witness statements as evidence for fear it will make their case look flimsy, especially if minor details conflict with established ones. When witness testimony contradicts DNA evidence, juries routinely follower the superior line of evidence (as well they should).

How would the type of trial have anything at all to do with it?

As I've said, as soon as the DNA planting kit becomes available to the public, DNA evidence will be worthless. Especially after techniques become common so people can alter DNA for anyone to use for planting at crime scenes.

But no, lawyers do not hold back witnesses because of any such reasons. They present witnesses that can withstand scrutiny of their story with no regard to contrary evidence. If a witness has a valid alibi any material evidence is overruled.

Why do you think most people don't seriously believe in UFOs? Because despite the thousands of eye witness testimony, there's just no solid evidence to back it up.

Because despite millions of fantasy stories about alien life, none has ever been found. Everyone knows that life anywhere else is not possible. And if it were possible, by the time we contacted any, this planet would be cold and dead. But it's not possible.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Well there's to much evidence from historical sources saying the same thing. Some of it is written as in official correspondence and has no motives for promoting any agenda. In fact if anything some of it is trying to actually denounce the Christians and Christ as fools. The very fact they mention Christ and the christian movement which backs some of the things the bible says like that this Christ who they say does wonders and heals is a testimony in itself. But they dont deny it happening they just put it down to sorcery and not divinity.

There is great evidence that much of the gospels were written soon after the events and by eye witnesses or those who knew the eye witness. There was a strong tradition of oral reciting and passing on of events and it was a practice of the early believers. So it wasn't a case of it being forgotten and then people trying to recall events. The events were so significant that they were talked about a lot and they spread very fast throughout the land. The christian movement grew very fast and spread far and wide.
Again, "is popular" is not the same as "is true".

Could be but the ways in which he taught in parables and the manner is to authentic. It would be better to say that others made up stories than to say that Jesus was deluded. He is often saying dont tell others of what I have done and trying to humble himself. He has dealings with the local pharisees and they try to trap him. He is found guilty of no crimes. The historical writings are saying he was a good man who promoted good living and love. His followers loved him and were willing to give their lives. There was no wrong doing in his followers and they had to often hide to meet together as they were persecuted. Jesus himself comes across as a person who wasn't seeking fame or being egotistical or having any self deluded ideas. If anything he was the opposite. He made the statements about being the son of God as a straight forward thing which was really getting him in trouble as it was blasphemous in those times. He gave good reasoning for why he should be taken seriously with his connections to the Jewish law and old testament. He just made to much sense to be a deluded egocentric or someone seeking self promotion or even someone who was so unsure of himself that he was a emotional and excitable person like the ones you are trying to make him to be.
I said nothing of the sort. I posited that Jesus was eccentric (lit: held unusual ideas), charismatic (lit: good at explaining things to people and holding their attention), a rabbi (lit: knowledgeable about the faith) - I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus was these things. I never said he was an attention seeker, I never said he wanted popularity, I only said that he was a smart knowledgeable Jew who thought he was the messiah when actually he was just a mortal man. But other people believed him too, and thus the religion was born.

Your confusion may be born out of misunderstanding what I meant by 'popular', but I'll discuss that in the next point.

like I said he comes across as not wanting popularity and if anything is standing for truth and stating hundreds of times he is the truth and the way and the light. This would be more to do with delusion or madness than popularity.
When I said 'popular', I didn't mean 'puts on a fake persona to be liked by everyone' - I didn't mean Jesus was a highschool cheerleader! ^_^ I meant 'popular' as in 'liked by many people'.

Remember, you put forward that the popularity of early Christianity supports its veracity ('popular' in that it swept the Roman Empire and now the West sets its calendars by it). That is became the staple religion of Europe just means it was popular, not that it was true. Islam was - and is - popular throughout the Middle East, northern Africa, Spain, Persia, etc, but that doesn't make it true. Mesoamerican religions were all the rage in the Americans before Europeans took over, but that doesn't mean they were any more or less true.

So I don't see why the the popularity of Christianity makes it more probable.

I'm not sure about Buddhist. But taking the most famous martyrs for their cause the Muslims this is totally different. The Muslims kill others to kill themselves that is their main objective. This shows that they murder which is not only against christian belief but is actually against their own beliefs. The Christians are being asked to denounce they belief and then they are killed if they dont. In fact it is often the muslims that will kill the christians because of this. The Christians were just trying to live and practice a way of life. They were not rebelious or radical or sought to fight anyone over it. They often had to hide so they could hold church meetings. They were not looking for trouble, trouble found them because they were a threat to the Romans.
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comparison of Christian and Muslim martyrdom. Don't forget that the modern practice of Muslim suicide bombers is just that: modern. Muslims were (and are) just as persecuted by Christians as Christians were (and are) by Muslims, for much the same reason - convert or die.

Mohammad doesn't claim to be the son of God or do miracles or bring people back from the dead. He actually acknowledges Jesus as well. If you read some of the things about Mohammad he was just a man who who was more like a great leader. But he also had done some questionable things. Where as Jesus was innocent and never sinned but he was sent to death.
Muslims would say that Mohammed never sinner, either. How would you characterise this belief? True? False? Rational but false? Irrational and delusional?

Well 11 of the 12 disciples were executed for their beliefs and their writings are far from being deluded. They have to much cohesion and rational thought to be deluded to the point of not realizing they are giving up their lives for a silly cause.
Hmm, I think you are confusing what is meant by 'delusional'. You introduced the word yourself, in your dichotomy: "either mad or very deluded". I would personally have said 'mistaken'.

But in any case, I did not say they were stark raving lunatics. I said they were delusional - they held a belief that was not true. They held this belief so firmly that it cost them their lives - but that doesn't make the belief true, that just makes the whole thing tragic.

Just the behavior of the believers in that they had to hide and the good works many done seems not a delusion but a good way of life.
The two are not mutually exclusive. A false belief can still motivate people to lead good lives - just look at any Mosque-organised fundraiser or Hindu-run charity.

Like the many Christians today they show no signs of delusion any more than you or others do. They are rational and coherent in all their lives and can think and reason what they believe. They have normal lives and operate without delusion in every other part of their lives. They would have to be regarded as schizophrenic or so deluded that it would effect them as a whole ie be deluded and easily fooled in other areas of their lives.
I disagree: just look at the scientologists. An ancient alien called Lord Xenu sent alien called thetans into Earth's volcanoes and detonated them with hydrogen bombs, and now their souls plague us with psychological diseases, and psychologists are actually aliens looking to stop Scientology's work. Patently absurd beliefs, no? You'd have to be delusional to believe them... except people do. Thousands of people (millions, if you believe their numbers).

These are civilised and rational people, like you or me, yet they believe something as silly as Scientology.

The same could be said for any other clear and obvious nonsense - horoscopes, psychic mediums, David Icke's "the Queen is an alien reptile", "9/11 was an inside job", "atheists worship Satan", etc. Any iota of thought or modicum of research shows these things for what they are - hocum. And yet, perfectly intelligent people are suckered in.

Well not just in my opinion. Parables like the good Samaritan and the lost son are famous throughout history and the non religious world as good ways to live and good reasonable and rational thought. Thinks live love your neighbor as you love your self and the meek shall inherit the earth are famous sayings from Jesus.
Actually, they're not. For one thing, it exists almost word for word in the Torah (Leviticus 19:18). For another, the Golden Rule, as it's called, is found throughout the world in many disparate cultures, religions, and moral philosophies, and predates Jesus by quite a way - it's been found as far back as ancient Babylon in 1760 BCE.

In fact if you read the sermon on the mount it is one of the best examples of the teachings of Jesus which gives a rational and good philosophy for life. These aren't the rantings of a ego maniac or deluded person.
Indeed. But I never said he was delusional or an ego maniac - I said he was a normal man who claimed to be God and believed it. Otherwise rational people can come to all sorts of wacky conclusions - like believing the world is going to end, or that the souls of dead aliens are what cause psychological problems.

No I said he would either have to be deluded or there was something to what he said. Even the non religious historians acknowledge his claims as being the son of God and that he was going around performing miracles. That was the word and this is what people were seeing and saying. So they were either all deluded or Jesus was doing some card tricks or magical tricks as people were being healed as in the blind seeing and the dead rising. This is said to be why the movement grew so fast because of the miraculous things that had happened. These things stunned people and the Christians were converting sometimes 3,000 at a time. It grew very fast that within a few hundred years it took over the roman empire and was even adopted by the state. The very one that was trying so hard to stubbed it out. So even the enemies of it were convinced.
All that proves is that the religion was popular, not that the alleged miracles occurred. Every religion has alleged miracles, but sheer popularity doesn't prove anything.
 
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TLK Valentine

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EXACTLY WHO in these imaginary courtrooms in your mind are tossing out personal testimony?

Is that
The judge?
the prosecution lawyer?
the defense lawyer?
the stenographer?

Or just you.

Thousands of people who have been convicted on personal testimony have later been exonerated based on forensic evidence -- because forensics trumps personal testimony.

Can you name a single instance where the reverse has happened?

C'mon -- just one -- we'll take it from there.
 
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AV1611VET

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Thousands of people who have been convicted on personal testimony have later been exonerated based on forensic evidence -- because forensics trumps personal testimony.

Forensic evidence can be planted at the scene of the crime.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Forensic evidence can be planted at the scene of the crime.

don't you mean "embedded"?

Still happens far less often than witnesses lying or being mistaken.
 
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stevevw

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Again, "is popular" is not the same as "is true".

On that basis no you cant prove something by its popularity. But i would think that it is more than to do with popularity. It was also the speed at which it happened. Because there were supernatural things happening like the healings people were seeing great things which convinced them that something great was happening. Remember especially the early church this was on the back of Jesus rising from the dead. So the word was already around that Jesus had risen from the dead and this was more than the ordinary pagan God that was always promoted.

I said nothing of the sort. I posited that Jesus was eccentric (lit: held unusual ideas), charismatic (lit: good at explaining things to people and holding their attention), a rabbi (lit: knowledgeable about the faith) - I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus was these things. I never said he was an attention seeker, I never said he wanted popularity, I only said that he was a smart knowledgeable Jew who thought he was the messiah when actually he was just a mortal man. But other people believed him too, and thus the religion was born.
But i would have thought anyone who went around thinking and saying he was the messiah and son of God would be a little bit short in the mind department. Or at least have a higher opinion of themselves which is detached from reality. Most people that think that we tend to say they are a bit deluded or full of self. Normally people who are eccentric have those unusual ideas throughout all areas of their lives. It affects their personality and the way they behave with people IE Andy Warhol. You have to remember he was saying he was the messiah and son of God. This is a big statement. Normally people who say this dont say it as just a good intentioned person thinking they are doing the right thing. It is like a divinity complex and normally there are also certain traits that go with a person like that. Such as inability to love, relate to and understand others. But he wasn't just saying he was a god or the messiah as some may do. He was specifically claiming that there is no other God and that he was the way the truth and the light and no one can come to God unless through him. He was claiming to be the fulfillment of the old testament to those who knew the laws. He was very specific and clear about this. So it was more than just a good bloke making a slightly misinformed statement. If we are to take seriously what he was claiming then we will have to question his rationality as a stable person.

Your confusion may be born out of misunderstanding what I meant by 'popular', but I'll discuss that in the next point.
When I said 'popular', I didn't mean 'puts on a fake persona to be liked by everyone' - I didn't mean Jesus was a high school cheerleader! ^_^ I meant 'popular' as in 'liked by many people'.
Fair enough. But it is more than popularity and it is also what sort of popularity. Plenty can be popular and last a while. They can be popular for many different reasons. Elvis is still popular. Jesus was popular or followed because he claimed to be the son of God and the savior of the world. He is since be claimed as the sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. Not exactly your average claim to fame.
Remember, you put forward that the popularity of early Christianity supports its veracity ('popular' in that it swept the Roman Empire and now the West sets its calendars by it). That is became the staple religion of Europe just means it was popular, not that it was true. Islam was - and is - popular throughout the Middle East, northern Africa, Spain, Persia, etc, but that doesn't make it true. Mesoamerican religions were all the rage in the Americans before Europeans took over, but that doesn't mean they were any more or less true.
So I don't see why the the popularity of Christianity makes it more probable.
Yes I agree popularity alone doesn't prove it was true.

I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comparison of Christian and Muslim martyrdom. Don't forget that the modern practice of Muslim suicide bombers is just that: modern. Muslims were (and are) just as persecuted by Christians as Christians were (and are) by Muslims, for much the same reason - convert or die.
Mohammad is known for his giving the ok for murders and having some questionable associations with children. Not sure what it all means but it seems pretty strange to me. He doesn't claim to be God or represent the only God. Jesus says he is the only way and god is the only God. This is clear and specific.

Muslims would say that Mohammed never sinner, either. How would you characterize this belief? True? False? Rational but false? Irrational and delusional?
They can say that but that isn't what the Koran says. If rape and murder are sins then something is wrong. Maybe there is something else to it I dont know but it doesn't paint a good picture to even have that said in the book. The bible talks about false religions and they can fool people.

Besides Mohammad doesn't claim to be God or the only God. This maybe a good example of a popular person being followed more than Jesus.
Sina's Challenge: Muhammad a Rapist

Hmm, I think you are confusing what is meant by 'delusional'. You introduced the word yourself, in your dichotomy: "either mad or very deluded". I would personally have said 'mistaken'.
But in any case, I did not say they were stark raving lunatics. I said they were delusional - they held a belief that was not true. They held this belief so firmly that it cost them their lives - but that doesn't make the belief true, that just makes the whole thing tragic.
Fair enough.

The two are not mutually exclusive. A false belief can still motivate people to lead good lives - just look at any Mosque-organised fundraiser or Hindu-run charity.
But this just didn't make people good it actually changed them completely. Bad people like Paul who was persecuting Christians were being transformed. They were going around healing people and many miracles were happening. This is why the church grew so fast. Sometimes thousands at a time converted. The message spread very fast throughout the empire.
Anyone can do good work but it is the faith in Jesus that make the person a new creature and born again. Where as they were afraid they had courage, where they sinned they became righteous.

I disagree: just look at the scientologists. An ancient alien called Lord Xenu sent alien called thetans into Earth's volcanoes and detonated them with hydrogen bombs, and now their souls plague us with psychological diseases, and psychologists are actually aliens looking to stop Scientology's work. Patently absurd beliefs, no? You'd have to be delusional to believe them... except people do. Thousands of people (millions, if you believe their numbers).
These are civilised and rational people, like you or me, yet they believe something as silly as Scientology.
The same could be said for any other clear and obvious nonsense - horoscopes, psychic mediums, David Icke's "the Queen is an alien reptile", "9/11 was an inside job", "atheists worship Satan", etc. Any iota of thought or modicum of research shows these things for what they are - hocum. And yet, perfectly intelligent people are suckered in.
Have you seen some of the people that follow the religion. Ie tom cruise and their leader whatever his name is. A little weird if you ask me. But not just that they really dont live a christian life. Its all about the mind kinetics whatever its called and self promotion. The Christians went out into the world to save people and help them. they healed them and gave them food and water when they needed it. The bible says you can tell a christian by the fruits of the spirit they bear. If you look at many of those things you've mentioned they are about self. I am not sure they are totally rational people. If you speak to them they will also go off into other tangents about other things. They dont just become a devil worship one minute and not the next or a physic then dont apply that to all their lives. You can easily see through what they say with reading tea leaves ect or when what they say doesn't come true. A true christian accepts Christ into their lives and it completely transforms them from inside out. They will live that life in everything they do and should become more Christ like so that this is seen as a shining light and example. It will stand out. All these other things are of the world and man made religions and beliefs that do not and will not produce the fruits of God. You can look into them and easily see through them for what they are.

Actually, they're not. For one thing, it exists almost word for word in the Torah (Leviticus 19:18). For another, the Golden Rule, as it's called, is found throughout the world in many disparate cultures, religions, and moral philosophies, and predates Jesus by quite a way - it's been found as far back as ancient Babylon in 1760 BCE.
Isn't the torah part of the old testament. Jesus is the fulfillment of the old testament. But i have never seen his parables in there. I would like to see these other quotes. As far as I know Jesus teaching are from him. There maybe some that have some similarities but I haven't seen any. Many of these sayings relate to God being the only God and his kingdom. It isn't just about wise sayings but how to inherit the kingdom of God and what you must do.

Indeed. But I never said he was delusional or an ego maniac - I said he was a normal man who claimed to be God and believed it. Otherwise rational people can come to all sorts of wacky conclusions - like believing the world is going to end, or that the souls of dead aliens are what cause psychological problems.
As i said before he wasn't just the average man making that claim. He was saying there is no other and he was clear about it. I dont think there was any ambiguity about it and the claim was pretty big for those times. In fact it was so big that he was crucified for it. He claimed that he comes from God in heaven and he can go to God. He talked about the things he had to do and that he would be persecuted. There was a promised messiah from the old testament and he claimed to be the one. He fulfilled many of the prophesies in the old testament and others had said that he was the fulfillment like john the baptist. It went beyond a claim he was living the life as the son of God to the point of his sacrifice on the cross. He even said he was the promised messiah that would take away the sins of the world. So i think it was getting quite elaborate and a little bit beyond a simple good man who was a little confused and going through a hard time knowing who he was.

All that proves is that the religion was popular, not that the alleged miracles occurred. Every religion has alleged miracles, but sheer popularity doesn't prove anything.
I havnt heard of the miracles of other prophets or people that claimed to be God. Especially coming to earth and doing them. Raising the dead ect. I know some religions like Hindu can have mystical things and talk about magical things happening. But this was from a man who came to earth lived among us and claimed to be the son of God. I'm not sure I have heard anyone claim all that.

See it all starts to become fairly elaborate. Then you have to start saying this man claimed all these things which lined up with the old testament. That he made sure he fulfilled all the prophesies on purpose and continued his plot which begins to bring into question his mental state or motives. Then you have to start saying that the others were going along with it including those before Jesus, during and afterwards. Then you have to make this all line up with witness accounts and line up all the gospels and other writings and start saying they are made up as well and all part of this elaborate plan. Then you have to question non biblical sources as well and how what is said in the bible lines up with historical people and places ect. It becomes a pretty elaborate story then. You would either think there is some truth here and that something has happened or IMO you cant even say its all a ploy or made up as its to complicated and intertwined to be that.
 
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SkyWriting

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evidence is just a painting that man makes. the one viewing reality sees something and trys to recreate it. paintings never come out like the real thing but monkeys are happy with bashing a rock against a nut. humans are a tiny bit higher than that and don't often sling their poo... though it still happens. human scientific knowledge would probably attract aliens from all around.... it is quite the comedy i'm sure!

I can't deny your story about your family and getting bashed by a rock, with the expected results.
 
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SkyWriting

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Can you name a single instance where the reverse has happened?
C'mon -- just one -- we'll take it from there.

Avoiding my questions? No matter.
Confession tops the list.
Actually false confession tops the list.
Evidence is overruled every time.

In cases where DNA evidence was used to prove innocence after conviction,
25% of those wrongly convicted had confessed or plead guilty.
They were convicted no matter the evidence.

Happy to help you out there!
 
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TLK Valentine

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Avoiding my questions? No matter.
Confession tops the list.
Actually false confession tops the list.
Evidence is overruled every time.

And how are false confessions overturned? By evidence.

In cases where DNA evidence was used to prove innocence after conviction,
25% of those wrongly convicted had confessed or plead guilty.

Happy to help you out there!

Indeed -- personal testimony is unreliable even when the people testify against themselves.

You've been surprisingly helpful.
 
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Heissonear

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And how are false confessions overturned? By evidence.



Indeed -- personal testimony is unreliable even when the people testify against themselves.

You've been surprisingly helpful.
.

In the Spiritual, personal testimony acutely and fundamentally is given by "revelation" through the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures for clear reasons refers to Him as the Spirit of Truth.

Your "foundation" is based on the weakness of clay, and not on what the Potter has chosen and His ways. You still do not know Him, much less learn to walk with Him in this life.

You think you have arrived and you have not even passed the starting point, chap.

.
 
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SkyWriting

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Indeed -- personal testimony is unreliable even when the people testify against themselves.

And yet any evidence was ignored when they fingered the wrong person.
For every case that involves DNA, there are hundreds that do not.
 
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dad

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If aliens have been visiting us for as long as we have had sightings being 60 years or so I wish they would hurry up and make contact. Are they shy or something.
.

Apparently there are aliens that will come from below the earth mentioned in the bible. They are evil and hurtful, and weird looking.

Some will also fall from the sky, and be grounded on earth. They are about to be a fact of life on earth.

They are demons.
 
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freezerman2000

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Apparently there are aliens that will come from below the earth mentioned in the bible. They are evil and hurtful, and weird looking.

Some will also fall from the sky, and be grounded on earth. They are about to be a fact of life on earth.

They are demons.

Wow,Write a book..maybe you will become rich along with Amazon.
 
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