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your thoughts on aliens/ extra terrestials?

stevevw

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I give as much credence to UFO sightings as I do to ghost, Bigfoot, Yeti or divine being sightings.

That's not to say they're all fake, more like misguided. The word unidentified is key in UFO. Someone sees a flying object that is unidentified then it takes a ridiculous leap of faith to say it must be extra terrestrial beings. Much like all God the gaps arguments.

And if an alien civilisation has the ability of intergalactic travel, chances are, to them we'd be as insignificant as an earwig is to us. Why would they bother with us

Funny how people are more willing to believe in UFOs then Jesus. Yet there is way more evidence for Jesus.
 
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stevevw

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I'm pretty sure there are more Christians worldwide than UFO believers

Yeah but I mean you see people who are non Christians more willing to believe in UFOs or discuss it more readily than about Christ. Yet Christ has more evidence.
 
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Sofaman

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Yeah but I mean you see people who are non Christians more willing to believe in UFOs or discuss it more readily than about Christ. Yet Christ has more evidence.

Evidence for both is of the lowest standard being eye witness testimony.

You could argue that the evidence for UFOs is stronger given that the testimonies to Jesus were recorded several decades after his death.
 
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pgp_protector

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Yeah but I mean you see people who are non Christians more willing to believe in UFOs or discuss it more readily than about Christ. Yet Christ has more evidence.

There's Video Evidence of Christ ?
There's Photographic Evidence of Christ ?
There's Ancient Drawings of Christ ?
 
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Strathos

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There's Ancient Drawings of Christ ?

article-1372741-0B6C6F8900000578-879_634x848.jpg
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yeah but I mean you see people who are non Christians more willing to believe in UFOs or discuss it more readily than about Christ. Yet Christ has more evidence.

Well, Jesus existing and Jesus being the son of god are two very different things.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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There is no courtesy in a paraphrase. If you feel insulted by misquoted people
then don't. Use the quote button.
I think you mean 'report' button.

I say there are no indications that life is trying to form by any process.
For that reason, life is not possible.
And I say that that is an entirely illogical induction to make. The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise.

There needs to be both motive and method. We've found no motive
or method. Not only that, but no life anywhere else within
spitting distance either. Nor signs of life in radio or visual spectrum's.
Or in gamma ray spectrum. Nothing anywhere.
Once upon a time, we never saw black swans, so it was concluded black swans categorically do not exist. And yet...

Ultimately, all we can say is that we have not discovered extra-terrestrial life yet. Anything more is making a leap of faith and is well beyond anything supported by science.
 
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SkyWriting

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Look at what you're saying:

1) No signs of X
2) Therefore, science says X is impossible

This is not rational thinking.


I got that too.
To rule out God, as described in the scriptures, is irrational then. :thumbsup: :amen:
 
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SkyWriting

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Ultimately, all we can say is that we have not discovered extra-terrestrial life yet. Anything more is making a leap of faith and is well beyond anything supported by science.

I'm not basing my belief on lost & found.

I'm basing it on all scientific principals that point toward chaos and entropy.
And none that point toward self-replication, life, intelligence, complexity.
Nor have we determined any pathway to life, or "pressure" for life to form.
Nor have we, with all our smarts, been able to recreate a path possibly taken
from non-life to life.

Plus...none found.
 
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Sofaman

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I'm not basing my belief on lost & found.

I'm basing it on all scientific principals that point toward chaos and entropy.
And none that point toward self-replication, life, intelligence, complexity.
Nor have we determined any pathway to life, or "pressure" for life to form.
Nor have we, with all our smarts, been able to recreate a path possibly taken
from non-life to life.

Plus...none found.

I'm struggling to follow your argument.

Are you saying that because we haven't yet demonstrated abiogenesis and haven't yet found evidence of life outside this planet then its impossible for life to exist outside of this planet?
 
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Noxot

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I'm not basing my belief on lost & found.

I'm basing it on all scientific principals that point toward chaos and entropy.
And none that point toward self-replication, life, intelligence, complexity.
Nor have we determined any pathway to life, or "pressure" for life to form.
Nor have we, with all our smarts, been able to recreate a path possibly taken
from non-life to life.

Plus...none found.

evidence is just a painting that man makes. the one viewing reality sees something and trys to recreate it. paintings never come out like the real thing but monkeys are happy with bashing a rock against a nut. humans are a tiny bit higher than that and don't often sling their poo... though it still happens. human scientific knowledge would probably attract aliens from all around.... it is quite the comedy i'm sure!
 
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stevevw

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Evidence for both is of the lowest standard being eye witness testimony.

You could argue that the evidence for UFOs is stronger given that the testimonies to Jesus were recorded several decades after his death.

Well put it this way for a movement of people who went on to die for their beliefs of this man in the thousands and to grow fast and become the dominate religion of the very empire that tried to eradicate it is pretty strong evidence.

There have been non biblical records of Jesus such as from Josephus and Philly the younger. There have been non biblical records of his disciples. We have a book which is full of references to Jesus which also revolves around historical names places and events that have been shown to be correct. So you may question what Jesus had said as being true or not but I think there is no doubt there was a man named Jesus who claimed to be the son of God and was crucified for those claims. Even non religious historians will acknowledge that. So either there was a mass hallucination or many were lying to the point of being willing to sacrifice there lives. Yet the writings from these same people seems as sane as any person.

From what I have seen and heard the Phoenix Lights have been shown to be a formation of military planes and the lights that descended behind the mountains were flares from the same military. All the hype was built up and the story got better as it went on. But its funny how we have been seeing stuff like this for over 50 years now and its always either at night, distant, fuzzy and never close and clear. We have 10s of thousands of telescopes up in the sky with tracking tech covering just about every air space above us and none have picked up a credible UFO or signal in all this time.

Besides your a christian so why would you believe there is life on other planets. That is condemning Jesus to die on the cross over and over again for other civilizations. If they have space crafts then they have sinned and are living by the worldly tech that we do. They would need to be saved as well and Jesus is the only savior. He has already died as it says in the bible once and for all.
 
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stevevw

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There's Video Evidence of Christ ?
There's Photographic Evidence of Christ ?
There's Ancient Drawings of Christ ?

As i said early the video and photo evidence for UFOs is always fuzzy and distant or at night. We have thousands of telescopes and satellites up in the sky and none have found any credible evidence of UFOs. Most sightings have been found to have an explanation or to be fake. If aliens have been visiting us for as long as we have had sightings being 60 years or so I wish they would hurry up and make contact. Are they shy or something.

There may not be any video or photos of Jesus as there were no tech back then but we have the next best thing. We have peoples testimony. There sre non biblical records for Jesus and his crucifixion. We have a movement that took over the roman empire and went onto take over the world. Jesus has influenced mankind to the point of setting out calendars and other events. Pretty good for a hoax i reckon. Thousands have sacrificed their lives for their beliefs and for other people so they are either mad or very deluded yet their words are as sane or even wiser than anyone. I think there is no doubt there was a man named Jesus who claimed to be the sone of God and was judged and found guilty by pontius pilot and then sent to death by execution. Even non religious historians agree with that.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I got that too.
To rule out God, as described in the scriptures, is irrational then. :thumbsup: :amen:
Sure. But if you grant that God is possible, you can't then turn around and rule out extra-terrestrial life just because we haven't find it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I'm not basing my belief on lost & found.

I'm basing it on all scientific principals that point toward chaos and entropy.
And none that point toward self-replication, life, intelligence, complexity.
Nor have we determined any pathway to life, or "pressure" for life to form.
Abiogenesis and evolution by natural selection beg to differ. But all of this is still the same fallacious argument from ignorance and incredulity - "Today, 31 March 2014, we haven't found aliens... therefore there are no aliens!", "Today, 31 March 2014, we don't know how life can arise by itself... therefore it cannot ever happen!".

That is textbook irrationality. That we don't know how something happens today doesn't mean we won't tomorrow. All we can say is we don't know yet. To say more is to step beyond the evidence and enter the realm of faith.

Nor have we, with all our smarts, been able to recreate a path possibly taken from non-life to life.
All that says is human technology as of 2014 isn't up to it. We haven't sent humans to Mars yet either, but that hardly means it's categorically impossible.

Plus...none found.
Neither were black swans... until they were.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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There may not be any video or photos of Jesus as there were no tech back then but we have the next best thing. We have peoples testimony.
Personal testimony is only the next best thing if there is nothing else to go on. Courts of law discount testimony if any other evidence crops up, because it's well known that human memory is patchy at best - we remember selectively, we embellish, we literally fabricate brand new memories without even knowing it.

There sre non biblical records for Jesus and his crucifixion. We have a movement that took over the roman empire and went onto take over the world. Jesus has influenced mankind to the point of setting out calendars and other events. Pretty good for a hoax i reckon.
'Hoax' implies it was deliberate. Suppose Jesus was an eccentric, charismatic, but ultimately mortal rabbi who believed his own claims to divinity - isn't it possible he was just that convincing? All it takes is to convince a few people about your divinity, and you've got your own religion. L. Ron Hubbard did it on a bet, and now Scientology is a multibillion dollar corporation.

"Is popular" is not the same as "is true".

ex Thousands have sacrificed their lives for their beliefs and for other people so they are either mad or very deluded
This always seems like a strange argument for Christians to make - are you not aware of the thousands of martyrs from other religions? The self-immolating Buddhists, the suicide-bombing Muslims? If the existence of Christian martyrs proves Christianity, why can't the same be said of Islam or Buddhism?

To put it another way, you answer your own question: they are simply very deluded.

yet their words are as sane or even wiser than anyone.
In your own subjective opinion, of course. I rather like the sayings of Confucius.

I think there is no doubt there was a man named Jesus who claimed to be the sone of God and was judged and found guilty by pontius pilot and then sent to death by execution. Even non religious historians agree with that.
By and large. But that doesn't mean he was right - as you say, he could easily have been deluded. How many religious zealots have got lost in a spiral of scriptural exegesis? How many have been so confident in their reading of scripture that they were sure the world was going to end on date X? William Miller and his 1843 prediction? Harold Camping and his 2011 prediction? These people were a) absolutely convinced of their own conclusions, and b) so charismatic that they convinced many thousands to sell their belongings and await the rapture.

I'm not saying this is what actually happened in 30 CE, but I'm not convinced the only explanation is that Jesus an actual deity. It's at least as probable that he was simply wrong.
 
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stevevw

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Personal testimony is only the next best thing if there is nothing else to go on. Courts of law discount testimony if any other evidence crops up, because it's well known that human memory is patchy at best - we remember selectively, we embellish, we literally fabricate brand new memories without even knowing it.

Well there's to much evidence from historical sources saying the same thing. Some of it is written as in official correspondence and has no motives for promoting any agenda. In fact if anything some of it is trying to actually denounce the Christians and Christ as fools. The very fact they mention Christ and the christian movement which backs some of the things the bible says like that this Christ who they say does wonders and heals is a testimony in itself. But they dont deny it happening they just put it down to sorcery and not divinity.

There is great evidence that much of the gospels were written soon after the events and by eye witnesses or those who knew the eye witness. There was a strong tradition of oral reciting and passing on of events and it was a practice of the early believers. So it wasn't a case of it being forgotten and then people trying to recall events. The events were so significant that they were talked about a lot and they spread very fast throughout the land. The christian movement grew very fast and spread far and wide.

'Hoax' implies it was deliberate. Suppose Jesus was an eccentric, charismatic, but ultimately mortal rabbi who believed his own claims to divinity - isn't it possible he was just that convincing? All it takes is to convince a few people about your divinity, and you've got your own religion. L. Ron Hubbard did it on a bet, and now Scientology is a multibillion dollar corporation.

Could be but the ways in which he taught in parables and the manner is to authentic. It would be better to say that others made up stories than to say that Jesus was deluded. He is often saying dont tell others of what I have done and trying to humble himself. He has dealings with the local pharisees and they try to trap him. He is found guilty of no crimes. The historical writings are saying he was a good man who promoted good living and love. His followers loved him and were willing to give their lives. There was no wrong doing in his followers and they had to often hide to meet together as they were persecuted. Jesus himself comes across as a person who wasn't seeking fame or being egotistical or having any self deluded ideas. If anything he was the opposite. He made the statements about being the son of God as a straight forward thing which was really getting him in trouble as it was blasphemous in those times. He gave good reasoning for why he should be taken seriously with his connections to the Jewish law and old testament. He just made to much sense to be a deluded egocentric or someone seeking self promotion or even someone who was so unsure of himself that he was a emotional and excitable person like the ones you are trying to make him to be.

"Is popular" is not the same as "is true".
like I said he comes across as not wanting popularity and if anything is standing for truth and stating hundreds of times he is the truth and the way and the light. This would be more to do with delusion or madness than popularity.

This always seems like a strange argument for Christians to make - are you not aware of the thousands of martyrs from other religions? The self-immolating Buddhists, the suicide-bombing Muslims? If the existence of Christian martyrs proves Christianity, why can't the same be said of Islam or Buddhism?
I'm not sure about Buddhist. But taking the most famous martyrs for their cause the Muslims this is totally different. The Muslims kill others to kill themselves that is their main objective. This shows that they murder which is not only against christian belief but is actually against their own beliefs. The Christians are being asked to denounce they belief and then they are killed if they dont. In fact it is often the muslims that will kill the christians because of this. The Christians were just trying to live and practice a way of life. They were not rebelious or radical or sought to fight anyone over it. They often had to hide so they could hold church meetings. They were not looking for trouble, trouble found them because they were a threat to the Romans.

Mohammad doesn't claim to be the son of God or do miracles or bring people back from the dead. He actually acknowledges Jesus as well. If you read some of the things about Mohammad he was just a man who who was more like a great leader. But he also had done some questionable things. Where as Jesus was innocent and never sinned but he was sent to death.

To put it another way, you answer your own question: they are simply very deluded.
Well 11 of the 12 disciples were executed for their beliefs and their writings are far from being deluded. They have to much cohesion and rational thought to be deluded to the point of not realizing they are giving up their lives for a silly cause. Just the behavior of the believers in that they had to hide and the good works many done seems not a delusion but a good way of life. Like the many Christians today they show no signs of delusion any more than you or others do. They are rational and coherent in all their lives and can think and reason what they believe. They have normal lives and operate without delusion in every other part of their lives. They would have to be regarded as schizophrenic or so deluded that it would effect them as a whole ie be deluded and easily fooled in other areas of their lives.

In your own subjective opinion, of course. I rather like the sayings of Confucius.
Well not just in my opinion. Parables like the good Samaritan and the lost son are famous throughout history and the non religious world as good ways to live and good reasonable and rational thought. Thinks live love your neighbor as you love your self and the meek shall inherit the earth are famous sayings from Jesus. In fact if you read the sermon on the mount it is one of the best examples of the teachings of Jesus which gives a rational and good philosophy for life. These aren't the rantings of a ego maniac or deluded person.

By and large. But that doesn't mean he was right - as you say, he could easily have been deluded. How many religious zealots have got lost in a spiral of scriptural exegesis? How many have been so confident in their reading of scripture that they were sure the world was going to end on date X? William Miller and his 1843 prediction? Harold Camping and his 2011 prediction? These people were a) absolutely convinced of their own conclusions, and b) so charismatic that they convinced many thousands to sell their belongings and await the rapture.
No I said he would either have to be deluded or there was something to what he said. Even the non religious historians acknowledge his claims as being the son of God and that he was going around performing miracles. That was the word and this is what people were seeing and saying. So they were either all deluded or Jesus was doing some card tricks or magical tricks as people were being healed as in the blind seeing and the dead rising. This is said to be why the movement grew so fast because of the miraculous things that had happened. These things stunned people and the Christians were converting sometimes 3,000 at a time. It grew very fast that within a few hundred years it took over the roman empire and was even adopted by the state. The very one that was trying so hard to stubbed it out. So even the enemies of it were convinced.

I'm not saying this is what actually happened in 30 CE, but I'm not convinced the only explanation is that Jesus an actual deity. It's at least as probable that he was simply wrong.
Fair enough thats your opinion.

The traditions and then the documents were linked to named persons—well-known named persons—and it was the early Jewish practice to memorize sacred traditions so they could be passed on faithfully from one tradent to another. There was not a long period of transmission of these traditions, and there was often a direct link, or a close link, with eyewitnesses.
. We do not have in those Gospels “cleverly devised myths” or stories only loosely based on history, but rather eyewitness testimonies and traditions that in many cases the witnesses were prepared to die for, so profoundly did they believe them to be true.
The Gospels were written by people who were indeed in touch with vivid eyewitness testimony about events that had been seared into their memory and had left indelible impressions. As it turns out, we may know more about the historical Jesus and his first followers than modern skeptics have suggested—far more, if Bauckham is right.
Jesus and the Eyewitnesses – Biblical Archaeology Society


This evidence arguably confirms that Jesus existed (Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus) and had a brother named James who was killed when Ananus was high priest (Josephus). Jesus was known to be a wonder worker (Josephus, Celsus), a wise man and a teacher (Josephus) and was regarded by his followers as divine (Pliny). He was crucified (Tacitus, Lucian, Josephus) under Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius (Tacitus, Josephus) and his crucifixion seems to have been accompanied by a very long darkness (Thallus). This crucifixion, far from squelching the movement, seems to have been a catalyst for its growth (Tacitus). By 49 CE it was large enough to have incited a riot, resulting in Claudius kicking all Jews out of Rome for awhile, thus confirming Luke’s report in Acts (Suetonius). By the early sixties CE the movement had become so widespread that Jesus’ disciples could be plausibly blamed by Nero for a city-wide fire (Tacitus). And by the turn of the century it had spread all the way to Bythnia where it was large enough to cause problems for the governor (Pliny).
All of this arguably confirms, to some extent at least, the historical veracity of the Gospels. What is perhaps even more interesting, however, is how (even apart from the Gospels) these external sources raise rather forcefully the question of how we can plausibly account for a movement arising in Palestine, within a first century Jewish context, that was centered on the faith that a recent, wonder-working, wise teacher who got crucified was actually the divine savior of the world. Saying that this movement was rooted in a legend simply re-labels the problem; it does not solve it.
If we accept the testimony from the early disciples about why they believed what they believed about Jesus, everything is explained. If we don’t accept this, however, what plausible alternative are we left with?
- See more at: Corroborating Historical Evidence of the New Testament – ReKnew
Corroborating Historical Evidence of the New Testament – ReKnew


http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMN...The_Historical_Reliability_of_the_Gospels.htm
 
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