Age of Accountability - scriptural foundation and a few questions?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Who thinks ya gotta win salvation? What's that got to do with the OP?

Post 11.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There is a difference between holding persons legally accountable for the crimes of an entire people and regarding individuals as part of a community. American individuals under a certain age are not accountable for certain actions, but that doesn't make them citizens of Turkmenistan.

Why did God allow the minors to enter the Promised Land?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Why did God allow the minors to enter the Promised Land?

Because they were members of the covenant people who had rights to the covenant inheritance but where not responsible for the crimes of their elders.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Because they were members of the covenant people who had rights to the covenant inheritance but where not responsible for the crimes of their elders.

Where's the proof the minors did not do as the elders did?

 

[Lion King]

Because they were members of the covenant people who had rights to the covenant inheritance but where not responsible for the crimes of their elders.

Incorrect.

The reason that the LORD allowed all the kids to enter the promised land was because they did not not have the knowledge of good and evil. God overlooked their sins simply because of this reason.

 

[Lion King]

Post 11.

Which part of my earlier post do you disagree with?

 

[Tangible]

1) 12-13 years of age (Lk 2:42, 8:42)

2) Have to have at least one Christian parent (1 Cor. 7:14, Titus 1:15) (the others will await the general resurrection)

3) Chronological age

4) See above.

You asked how these stipulations contradict sola fide.

According to the above,

1) Children under 12-13 yoa are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

2) Children who have at least one Christian parent are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

3) Children below an unspecified chronological age are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

Either God is our savior, who has promised to act to save sinners by the means of grace, apart from qualifications of the one being saved, or we must indeed qualify somehow for the application of God's grace to save us through faith in Christ.

Or, sola fide is erroneous and God chooses to save some outside of faith in Christ. (Thereby violating scripture.)

 

[Standing Up]

Why did God not hold those under twenty in the Assembly of God's People culpable and let them enter the Promised Land?

Exactly.

 

[Standing Up]

You asked how these stipulations contradict sola fide.

According to the above,

1) Children under 12-13 yoa are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

2) Children who have at least one Christian parent are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

3) Children below an unspecified chronological age are saved, yet incapable of possessing faith in Christ. Sola fide is violated.

Either God is our savior, who has promised to act to save sinners by the means of grace, apart from qualifications of the one being saved, or we must indeed qualify somehow for the application of God's grace to save us through faith in Christ.

Or, sola fide is erroneous and God chooses to save some outside of faith in Christ. (Thereby violating scripture.)

So, you're thinking babies who die all go to hell? Water baptism won't help because that's a qualification per your scenario.

Are you a universalist?

 

[Tangible]

So, you're thinking babies who die all go to hell?

I think you know very well that that is not what I believe.

Anyone God saves he does so through his chosen means of Word and Sacrament, and comprehension is not a requirement.

Water baptism won't help because that's a qualification per your scenario.

Wrong. Holy Baptism is God acting to save sinners.

Are you a universalist?

Are you serious?

Universalism states that all are saved regardless of faith in Christ. Which of our positions most closely resembles Universalism?

 

[Wordkeeper]

I think you know very well that that is not what I believe.

Anyone God saves he does so through his chosen means of Word and Sacrament, and comprehension is not a requirement.

Wrong. Holy Baptism is God acting to save sinners.

If comprehension is not a requirement, and salvation is by baptism, it seems sola fide is violated.

 

[Tangible]

If comprehension is not a requirement, and salvation is by baptism, it seems sola fide is violated.

If Holy Baptism is a saving work of God as Scripture says, then how so?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If comprehension is not a requirement, and salvation is by baptism, it seems sola fide is violated.

Saving faith is not the same as belief. Saving faith is the trust and dependence that characterizes a person who is in a state of grace, and that grace is given in baptism just as surely as it is given through the preached word.

Belief is important because it is the conscious expression of existential faith. Just as faith is trust in and dependence upon grace, so too belief is not merely knowledge and assent but also belief that clings to the promises of God- not just that Christ died, but that Christ died for me; not just that Christ is risen, but that Christ is risen for our salvation. It's what distinguishes the belief of demons from the faith of Christians.

But that sort of belief is only the conscious expression of a deeper reality that is only true when God makes it true: that he has handed over his inheritance to us. And he does that in Holy Baptism.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Where's the proof the minors did not do as the elders did?

Not what I said.

Incorrect.

The reason that the LORD allowed all the kids to enter the promised land was because they did not not have the knowledge of good and evil. God overlooked their sins simply because of this reason.

You seriously believe that people between thirteen and twenty years of age cannot be held accountable for their actions because they have no moral sentiment?

 

[PaladinValer]

If comprehension is not a requirement, and salvation is by baptism, it seems sola fide is violated.

Except this just ignored what he said what Holy Baptism is, and thus is a worthless Straw Man reply; null and void of any merit.

Address his actual points please.

 

[Nanopants]

You seriously believe that people between thirteen and twenty years of age cannot be held accountable for their actions because they have no moral sentiment?

I don't think that's what it's saying, but rather that the children hadn't been corrupted by "knowledge" which leads people to do things such as kill prophets and the Son. That picture doesn't show an age of accountability, but that youth, through lack of exposure, are less likely to have been corrupted, and this I believe is also reflected in the Gospels as Christ said "to such belong the kingdom of God," also indicating that even adults must be as children in this sense.

 

[Lion King]

You seriously believe that people between thirteen and twenty years of age cannot be held accountable for their actions because they have no moral sentiment?

Apparently, God did just that!

Why do you think the cut off age was 20 and not say 13 or 18?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Saving faith is not the same as belief. Saving faith is the trust and dependence that characterizes a person who is in a state of grace, and that grace is given in baptism just as surely as it is given through the preached word.

Belief is important because it is the conscious expression of existential faith. Just as faith is trust in and dependence upon grace, so too belief is not merely knowledge and assent but also belief that clings to the promises of God- not just that Christ died, but that Christ died for me; not just that Christ is risen, but that Christ is risen for our salvation. It's what distinguishes the belief of demons from the faith of Christians.

But that sort of belief is only the conscious expression of a deeper reality that is only true when God makes it true: that he has handed over his inheritance to us. And he does that in Holy Baptism.

Show Scriptural support for salvation apart from faith. You've just posited faith or baptism are both means of salvation. Most controversies pit faith against baptism as means of salvation.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Not what I said.



You seriously believe that people between thirteen and twenty years of age cannot be held accountable for their actions because they have no moral sentiment?

You said the elders sinned, implying the minors did not. Provide proof the minors did not sin. Common sense would indicate that minors are the first to run scared.

Do you seriuosly believe minors who are immune from prosecution are let off on a whim, that there is no proof, scientifical or empirical, that minors lack seriously in judgmental abilities?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Show Scriptural support for salvation apart from faith. You've just posited faith or baptism are both means of salvation. Most controversies pit faith against baptism as means of salvation.

So you don't believe in grace?