Age of Accountability - scriptural foundation and a few questions?

SAAN

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I would say anywhere between 14-20, assuming you are not mentally handicapped.
I knew a guy that was 26 and mentally handicapped, but he told me he doesnt believe in Jesus and all that Jesus stuff is just fluff, so this proves that even mentally handicapped people can reject the gospel too.


If you can fully comprehend that you are a sinner and fully understand the message being presented to you that Jesus died for your sins and you need to repent and accept him as your savior, yet reject that, you are fully accountable now for rejecting the gospel.
 
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Wordkeeper

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So you don't believe in grace?

New Testament writers have a different frame of reference from 17th or 21st century theologians. Calvin and Luther never knew about the patron client relationship. Grace is charis, gift, favour, again reminiscent of the plunder which a victorious general brought back:

Ephesians 2:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.

9(Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: 13till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ; 16from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.

Wise men made interpretations, mostly right, but there are some disconnects in commentaries, creeds, traditions, articles of faith. We don't have to perpetuate those disconnects.

Semper reformanda?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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New Testament writers have a different frame of reference from 17th or 21st century theologians. Calvin and Luther never knew about the patron client relationship. Grace is charis, gift, favour, again reminiscent of the plunder which a victorious general brought back:

Ephesians 2:8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.

9(Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: 13till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ; 16from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.

Wise men made interpretations, mostly right, but there are some disconnects in commentaries, creeds, traditions, articles of faith. We dont have to perpetuate those disconnects.

Semper reformanda?

Yes and I'm well aware of the patron-client relationship, and that grace happens within that context, both to establish that relationship and as a practice within it.

In any case, Luther was well aware that grace was not a thing, but an act of favor. That was one of Erasmus' great contributions to Greek scholarship and it set Luther on the path to Reformation.

And what I'm saying now is that if you don't see a contradiction between grace and faith, as though those were two "options," then you don't need to see a contradiction between baptism and faith. They aren't two options. Baptism is the ritual wherein the patron favors someone who becomes his client, and that client is then characterized by faith in the patron.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Luke 12:32Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

Yes and I'm well aware of the patron-client relationship, and that grace happens within that context, both to establish that relationship and as a practice within it.

In any case, Luther was well aware that grace was not a thing, but an act of favor. That was one of Erasmus' great contributions to Greek scholarship and it set Luther on the path to Reformation.

And what I'm saying now is that if you don't see a contradiction between grace and faith, as though those were two "options," then you don't need to see a contradiction between baptism and faith. They aren't two options. Baptism is the ritual wherein the patron favors someone who becomes his client, and that client is then characterized by faith in the patron.

A careful study will reveal that the gifts are given not at baptism, but at the point of a right response to a test of loyalty. The little flock that God was pleased to give the Kingdom to had surrendered faith in worldly things and thrown full weight behind God, like Joshua and Caleb...
 
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Melethiel

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Incorrect.

The reason that the LORD allowed all the kids to enter the promised land was because they did not not have the knowledge of good and evil. God overlooked their sins simply because of this reason.

Seriously, people are trying to argue that teenagers cannot distinguish right from wrong? That's absolutely ridiculous. A seventeen year old is clearly able to do so, and turning twenty doesn't magically grant you that ability.
 
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Nanopants

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Seriously, people are trying to argue that teenagers cannot distinguish right from wrong? That's absolutely ridiculous. A seventeen year old is clearly able to do so, and turning twenty doesn't magically grant you that ability.

I don't see how this is absolutely ridiculous.

Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
-Deu 1:39

Same reason we must be transformed by the renewing of our minds- a person with a wicked, corrupt mind will not cease to imagine evil of good and good of evil (Isa 5:20)
 
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Lion King

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Seriously, people are trying to argue that teenagers cannot distinguish right from wrong? That's absolutely ridiculous. A seventeen year old is clearly able to do so, and turning twenty doesn't magically grant you that ability.

Well, tell me then, why did God allow everyone under the age of twenty to enter the promised land?
 
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hedrick

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First, I believe in justification by faith. So some traditional arguments, which focus on when someone can first be held responsible for a sin, don’t make sense to me. The question is whether children have saving faith.

To that, Jesus’ answer seems to be yes, since he uses children’s faith as examples for adults. A young child presumably doesn’t have much if any understanding of God, but does live by faith, even if parents are acting as a stand-in for God. Ideally that faith in parents will turn into a faith in God as they develop. Unfortunately that doesn’t always happen. In some people, it is replaced by a hardened self-centeredness, that rejects faith in God.

I doubt there’s a specific age of accountability. Only God can judge when that has happened, but it’s probably not at any one, specific age.

This analysis makes more sense if you also accept inclusivism, as inclusivism accepts a broader definition of faith than explicit belief in Christ. If you require explicit belief, then it’s hard to believe that any young children are saved. While one CF participants accepts that, it’s rare, in part because there are at least some indications in Scripture of children or whole families being accepted.
 
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Melethiel

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Well, tell me then, why did God allow everyone under the age of twenty to enter the promised land?

Legal immunity. Most countries have a legal age of adulthood that is fairly arbitrary and has nothing to do with moral standing in society or ability to distinguish right from wrong.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Luke 12:32Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.



A careful study will reveal that the gifts are given not at baptism, but at the point of a right response to a test of loyalty. The little flock that God was pleased to give the Kingdom to had surrendered faith in worldly things and thrown full weight behind God, like Joshua and Caleb...

That goes against every description of baptism in the New Testament.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, tell me then, why did God allow everyone under the age of twenty to enter the promised land?

They hadn't been part of the group revolt against God's promise as the previous generation had, and so they were not cut off from that promise as the previous generation had.

They weren't sinless or non-culpable for their own sins. It's that they were a fresh generation to whom God would give the Land, not turning against God's promises as their fathers had.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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They hadn't been part of the group revolt against God's promise as the previous generation had, and so they were not cut off from that promise as the previous generation had.

They weren't sinless or non-culpable for their own sins. It's that they were a fresh generation to whom God would give the Land, not turning against God's promises as their fathers had.

-CryptoLutheran

Isn't this a bit of a "duh"?
 
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Wordkeeper

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That goes against every description of baptism in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”

Exodus 12:43The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it; 44but every man’s slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it. 45“A sojourner or a hired servant shall not eat of it. 46“It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it. 47“All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this. 48“But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. 49“The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.”

Circumcision is the signature on the contract attached to the Covenant of Law. Israel confesses Egypt is oppressive. She recognizes God has a better country to offer. She agrees to be loyal. God tests her. She fails several tests. At the border of the new Land, she fails the most important test. She never enters the promised Land, where she can rest from her own labor just as God rested from His own labor , after completing the task of Creation. The Land where it's occupants can enjoy wells, fields and houses prepared by others. The Covenant is called Law, not Grace, because Israel never received the favor of God, Grace, as the Law could not justify, make compliant for grace, favor, gifting, rest. Law is summed up in loving God, being loyal to Him, and loving your fellow man, fighting giants to enter the land where Creation finds rest, redemption, through our rest. Even Joshua could not bring Israel into rest, because the law only reveals sin, doesn't justify, remove sin, and in fact kills, neutralises , brings to a stop, the efforts to be the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham.

Baptism is the signature on the Covenant of Grace. Jew and Gentile confess the world is not their home, that they are sojourners, that God is their real home. They agree to be loyal. God tests them with persecution. Some fail and fall back to the world. Some think they need circumcision, Law, to avoid persecution, which they mistake to be wrath, and run back to Law. When they come to their senses, travel with God and drink from the Rock and learn of the requirement to give up all setting of their heart on preserving their property and their lives, instead setting their heart on God's will, because the former is temporal, whilst the latter is eternal (being born from above and seeing God's Kingdom), they obey God's voice when He asks for a decion to choose to be loyal to Him or to their life, put on wedding garments, enter the Kingdom, rest. Doing no work, enjoying fruit grown by others. No effort, all gain.

Isaiah 55:1"Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

John 4:14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

Ezekiel 37:11Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’ ”

Galatians 3
Stage 1, gift not received, journey started, eating of flesh drinking of blood from the Rock begins, Spirit guides, reveals Gods will, testing starts.
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Stage 2, gift not received, journey not finished, faith tested under persecution.
3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

Stage 3, God's call for loyalty to Him over own life heard, faith shown, destination reached, rest found in Christ, gift received, living as blessings to the world through having words of eternal life, words able to make alive dead bones.

14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.


Were the believers in the Old Covenant "living"? No, because Christ had not been sent. Faith, decision to gather our family together and obey God's law, be loyal to Him, could only lead to death, inability to be blessings to the world. However knowing the curse loomed over them for failing led to sorrow, confession of inability to live through the law, to humility, resulting in God lifting up, exalting, protecting. The law was a guardian.


Luke 18:13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!' 14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Can believers in the new covenant "live". Yes, because faith, loyalty to Christ, apart from the law, without having to go through the law, led to giving of the Kingdom, a new type of condition of compliance, a supreme condition that God required, a state fit for the work of sharing in Christ's affliction and continuance of His work:

Romans 3:1But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22even the righteousness given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
.
 
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Wordkeeper

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They hadn't been part of the group revolt against God's promise as the previous generation had, and so they were not cut off from that promise as the previous generation had.

They weren't sinless or non-culpable for their own sins. It's that they were a fresh generation to whom God would give the Land, not turning against God's promises as their fathers had.

-CryptoLutheran

Question
What makes an Israelite part of the "group"?

Question
Is there a provision in common law to provide immunity from adhering to contractual obligations for signatories, say minors, mental incompetency, etc.? IOW can a minor sign a Land Sale Agreement and be bound to it?
 
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Nanopants

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That goes against every description of baptism in the New Testament.

I don't understand how... the Israelites had to cross through Jordan to reach it, then they had to go and possess it. Likewise, we are not instantaneously transformed the moment we hit water. And why else would John have baptized in the Jordan?
 
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PaladinValer

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Postmodernist junk of "just-me-and-Jesus/Bible" is WAY too prevalent here.

I thank God that so many of us continue in the evidence-proven historic faith of the Apostles on this issue. Unsurprisingly, most of us come from historic, "big name" churches and denominations. Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Hus, Cranmer, and Clement VII are, all together, rolling in their graves...
 
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PaladinValer

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All of that and you can't answer a few simple questions?

Your questions don't object to what we actually believe, and as such, they are Straw Men.

Can questions pertaining to what we believe be given please?
 
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Postmodernist junk of "just-me-and-Jesus/Bible" is WAY too prevalent here.

I thank God that so many of us continue in the evidence-proven historic faith of the Apostles on this issue. Unsurprisingly, most of us come from historic, "big name" churches and denominations. Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Hus, Cranmer, and Clement VII are, all together, rolling in their graves...

Could you explain why you're not Roman Catholic?
 
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