How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[stevevw]

Isn't quantum physics showing that there is more going on with physics at the micro level than we think. Isn't it contradicting all known physics. Particles can react in different ways where they can pop in and out of existence. Particles can effect each other even if they are millions of miles apart. They can be in two different states of existence at the same time.

To me this maybe an insight into how God can manipulate the quantum world and cause the materialization and de materialization of things. If he is the creator of this then He can ultimately have some influence to change the physics of this world. Maybe because there's this breaking of the laws of physics down in the quantum world that it shows that things are not so fixed into hard wired laws that make everything act and respond to our reality.

In this sense a miracles could be when Gods power has had an effect on the quantum world. We are looking into this world and trying to understand it. Scientist are left scratching their heads as it is not supporting the world as we know. There are other forces at work. Maybe all science is doing is trying to pull apart and understand the very qualities of God. The closer we get to the very core of how things came into existence the more we will see God because we are getting closer to how something can come from nothing. We know there is no logical explanation for this to happen and if it does then it is something that is out of this world. That is why we are now coming up with way out theories like multi universes and string theory.

 

[Heissonear]

Cool questions, bro -- a pity you have no answer to mine.

TLK,

The little girl did not die. Why present this issue? What are you trying to infer to something that did not happen? Why not discuss what did have to happen. Are your turning the subject to "what if" rather than "what happened"?

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[TLK Valentine]

I ask you to read again how our brother sensed from the Holy Spirit the need to go home, and received an urgency to do so. You think his leading was not the Holy Spirit? Do you think it was mere coincidental?

.

Certainly a possibility.


Now, about the drowning girl -- is it still a miracle if she had died?

 

[TLK Valentine]

TLK,

The little girl did not die. Why present this issue? What are you trying to infer to something that did not happen? Why not discuss what did have to happen. Are your turning the subject to "what if" rather than "what happened"?

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Because little girls do drown all the time, I'm sorry to say -- I want something more substantial than an anecdote to determine what is or is not a miracle -- why can't you provide this?

But if you'd rather talk about real events, you can stop avoiding this one:

Here's another miracle story...

The Sago Mine disaster of Jan 2, 2006 was one of the worst mining accidents in West Virginia history. 13 miners were trapped underground. A day later, when reports came out that 12 out of the 13 miners were found alive, well, you can imagine how much God was praised in such a deeply religious community like Tallmansville, WV. Even then-Governor Joe Manchin announced that the people should "believe in miracles" from that point on.

Now, the bad news is that the reports were incorrect -- 12 out of the 13 miners were not found alive, in fact, the truth was that 12 were dead, and Randal McCloy, Jr, was the sole survivor. Now, IMO, the fact that anyone survived an explosion two miles deep in a coal mine is pretty darn miraculous, but for some reason, all the "miracle" talk stopped abruptly once the more accurate reports were made public.

Care to weigh in?

 

[Heissonear]

Isn't quantum physics showing that there is more going on with physics at the micro level than we think. Isn't it contradicting all known physics. Particles can react in different ways where they can pop in and out of existence. Particles can effect each other even if they are millions of miles apart. They can be in two different states of existence at the same time.

To me this maybe an insight into how God can manipulate the quantum world and cause the materialization and de materialization of things. If he is the creator of this then He can ultimately have some influence to change the physics of this world. Maybe because there's this breaking of the laws of physics down in the quantum world that it shows that things are not so fixed into hard wired laws that make everything act and respond to our reality.

In this sense a miracles could be when Gods power has had an effect on the quantum world. We are looking into this world and trying to understand it. Scientist are left scratching their heads as it is not supporting the world as we know. There are other forces at work. Maybe all science is doing is trying to pull apart and understand the very qualities of God. The closer we get to the very core of how things came into existence the more we will see God because we are getting closer to how something can come from nothing. We know there is no logical explanation for this to happen and if it does then it is something that is out of this world. That is why we are now coming up with way out theories like multi universes and string theory.

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Steve, I treasure thoughts and interests that you present of the world around us through being a believer in God, like most early scientists were in the past. Early scientists saw this world as God's, and sought to understand how He set it up and makes it work. You present some interesting things about fundamental physics role in how He might perform Miracles.

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[stevevw]

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Steve, I treasure thoughts and interests that you present of the world around us through being a believer in God, like most early scientists were in the past. Early scientists saw this world as God's, and sought to understand how He set it up and makes it work. You present some interesting things about fundamental physics role in how He might perform Miracles.

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I dont pretend to completely understand this world. But I have an insight into it and from what i have read there seems to be some interesting things going on. But I also know that you can only go so far as God will never be fully understood by our limited understanding. His qualities will go way beyond what we can comprehend. Non believers will want to put a self made or naturally made explanation on everything even if things seem like they have some sort of intelligence behind it. They would rather come up with almost crazy theories rather than admit that maybe God had anything to do with it. But He did and this is the miracles of life that are all around us. You dont have to be a scientist to understand God and luckily thats not a criteria. Many people havnt got that knowledge and the only requirement is to believe that what God said is true and that Jesus is the way the truth and the life.

 

[Heissonear]

Because little girls do drown all the time, I'm sorry to say -- I want something more substantial than an anecdote to determine what is or is not a miracle -- why can't you provide this?

But if you'd rather talk about real events, you can stop avoiding this one:

Care to weigh in?

Fair enough, and in this case easy. Do you notice how much was derived from man and became manmade?

I think you need to distinguish between "Holy Spirit led" and "man's imaginations".

You promote the later because that is most if not all of what you happen to see. I agree there is a ton of man-derived situations and outcomes about Christianity, God, Miracles, and the like. Many do say this is from God or say it is by God but in truth it is not, it is man-derived.

You promote how these are fake, mere deceptions by men, mere imaginations that are not Miracles, and of these man-made, mad-derived things you are 100% correct.

But false leadings and promotions by man do not mean there are no real God led and God performed works amongst us. Because of the fake we cannot throw out the real, nor learn how to discern the real.

I hear you when you state "why did God supposedly do this but not that", such as in healing, starvation, bad things happening to people, why does He do this and do nothing about that. However, has that way if thinking got you closer to Him? The real Him? Is that the path to learn from Him why He does these why and why nots?

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[Jen10]

If you have faith in God then its miracle otherwise just a game of timing .

 

[Heissonear]

If you have faith in God then its miracle otherwise just a game of timing .

Hi Jen, nice first post!

 

[stevevw]

If you have faith in God then its miracle otherwise just a game of timing .

thats right, to a non believer its always going to be a case of another explanation. Its a coincidence, or luck or it came down to the laws of averages. So you will never convince anyone. But to a believer it is beyond these things because there is a whole lot of other signs that all work together for it to happen. But a non believer wont know or see these and is looking in from the outside. The holy spirit is a witness to us as much as a physical witness.

Its like with prayer where things can happen as a result of praying for someone. Often there are many smaller changes that happen that defy normal processes. It maybe that someone prays for a person who has tried everything to overcome something. But the persistent pray brought about a change for the better where everything else had failed. The believer knows this because they are the ones that had prayed to God. It is even more relevant when not only is there change for the better but the person also may come closer to God as a result.

I believe this happens a lot and goes un noticed by non believers as they will always put it down to other reasons. But if a person doesn't have faith and isn't living with the holy spirit guiding them then they wont be tuned into this. Its like the bible says they will look but not see and they will listen but not hear the spirit of God at work in peoples lives.

 

[Ophiolite]

Isn't quantum physics showing that there is more going on with physics at the micro level than we think.

It depends who you mean by "we". If "we" refers to the general public then their profound ignorance of even Newtonian physics would make your statement accurate. However, if you include physicists in "we", then the answer is clearly no.

Isn't it contradicting all known physics.

No it isn't. Since quantum physics is a part of physics it is not contradicting itself. What quantum physics does is offer descriptions and explanations that are outwith the experiences of a intelligent, social primate who lives life in the macro-world. That's where the contradictions lie.

Quantum physics has provided a very detailed, accurate, repeatedly confirmed theory to account for a vast range of properties of 'things'. No contradictions there.

It is true that there is a conflict between relativity and quantum theory that is not yet resolved. That is quite different from saying that qunatum physics contradicts all known physics. Do you think you turn down the setting on your hyperbole generator?

Particles can effect each other even if they are millions of miles apart. They can be in two different states of existence at the same time.

Here you appear to misunderstand quantum entanglement and the collapse of wave forms. Perhaps some physics textbooks rather than Discovery channel documentaries might come to your aid.

To me this maybe an insight into how God can manipulate the quantum world and cause the materialization and de materialization of things. If he is the creator of this then He can ultimately have some influence to change the physics of this world.

If he is going to overrule one of his laws, why not overrule something at macro level? Why would he choose to do it at a quantum level.

In this sense a miracles could be when Gods power has had an effect on the quantum world. We are looking into this world and trying to understand it. Scientist are left scratching their heads as it is not supporting the world as we know. There are other forces at work. Maybe all science is doing is trying to pull apart and understand the very qualities of God. The closer we get to the very core of how things came into existence the more we will see God because we are getting closer to how something can come from nothing. We know there is no logical explanation for this to happen and if it does then it is something that is out of this world. That is why we are now coming up with way out theories like multi universes and string theory.

This seems very confused and misguided thinking.

The role of a scientist is to scratch their heads. This is independent of their field of study. Did you not know this? Why single out this particular example of it as if it were, somehow, special?

Why do you think the universe came from nothing?

Why are you calling the multiverse and string theory "way out"? You seem to have an aversion to the unfamiliar. Have you considered that this may be impacting on your beliefs?

 

[stevevw]

It depends who you mean by "we". If "we" refers to the general public then their profound ignorance of even Newtonian physics would make your statement accurate. However, if you include physicists in "we", then the answer is clearly no.

I am no expert and you cant expect the average person to understand quantum physics. But from what I have been reading there is a lot of confusion and different theories out there about quantum mechanics.

Quantum physicists appear to be as confused about quantum mechanics as the average man in the street.
Quantum mechanics (QM), together with its extensions into quantum electrodynamics and quantum field theory, is our most successful scientific theory, with many results agreeing to better than a part in a billion with experiment. However, at its roots QM is ghost-like – when you try to pin down just what it means, it tends to slip between the fingers. It is full of apparent paradoxes, incompatible dualities, and "spooky actions." Simply put, although QM works amazingly well, why and how it works remains elusive.
So you think YOU'RE confused about quantum mechanics?

Quantum physics has provided a very detailed, accurate, repeatedly confirmed theory to account for a vast range of properties of 'things'. No contradictions there.

I probably mean with things like spooky action. some things in the quantum world act differently to the world we see.

It is true that there is a conflict between relativity and quantum theory that is not yet resolved. That is quite different from saying that qunatum physics contradicts all known physics. Do you think you turn down the setting on your hyperbole generator?

Yes this is probably what I have read. What does this mean.

Here you appear to misunderstand quantum entanglement and the collapse of wave forms. Perhaps some physics textbooks rather than Discovery channel documentaries might come to your aid.

Well not everyone has the time to do a degree in physics. So we rely on the so called experts to give us a simpler explanation. Mine was through a simple video called Dr quantum and the double split experiment. But I have watched some docos on the subject and I would have thought that they were close to explain how things worked.
Dr Quantum - Double Slit Experiment - YouTube

If he is going to overrule one of his laws, why not overrule something at macro level? Why would he choose to do it at a quantum level.

Well I was thinking more of how it may have happened down at the quantum level. The end results will be things like say when Christ walked through a wall or when he turned water into wine. But something had to happen with the matter and how the physics changed for it to occur.

The role of a scientist is to scratch their heads. This is independent of their field of study. Did you not know this? Why single out this particular example of it as if it were, somehow, special?

I mean they are finding it hard to come up with any solid answers because there are none. They will never work out how something came from nothing or how the universe is so finely tuned. Thats because God made them.

Why do you think the universe came from nothing?

Well how else did it get here. There had to be a beginning. How does a vast universe like ours come into existence from either nothing or what some say was the big bang. What is a big bang that it created matter out of more or less nothing that could fill an infinite amount of space. That is what i mean by something that doesn't make sense.

Why are you calling the multiverse and string theory "way out"? You seem to have an aversion to the unfamiliar. Have you considered that this may be impacting on your beliefs?

I dont mean that the scientist are scratching their heads as part of the process of finding out. I mean they are not finding any logical explanations.
To me theories like the multi universe are way out because they have no proof and cannot really be proved. We cannot see them because they are in another dimension. Indirect evidence is not conclusive evidence. So when they say there is another billion dimensions with another you and me in them living another life i tend to think this is pretty way out thinking that has no evidence. Yet scientist will entertain the idea based on inconclusive evidence. Why not consider an intelligent designer as well. This could also be just as good an answer.

 

[Heissonear]

May I make up a story, too?

Your reply to the below is based on denial that it never happened. Well, it happened, now what!

"A group of families met at a brothers home after a church meeting. There were many families with their kids playing and walking around. A point came when of the Lord's ministers felt urgently impressed that one of the childern was going to drown. The impression became pronounced until he called everybody's attention and asked if they knew where their kids were. One family said their little two year old was missing. The one who was distressed by the Lord's Spirit started briskly out of the house and to the dock in back of the house. As he went towards the dock he heard within "run" so he ran. As he got onto the dock he urgently heard "run to the end and jump into the water at full speed". The Lord's minister, in a suit, without hesitant did so and the next thing he knew he was in the water. As he opened his eyes their was the little girl underwater right before him. He quickly grabbed her and brought her to shore where she received help getting the water from her lungs, at which point she started breathing.

I know these precious brothers and talked to the minister who rescued the little girl shortly after it happened.

Nobody knew where the little girl went. Nobody knew she had fallen into the lake at the end of the dock. Nobody knew where she would be at the moment people realized she was missing. Just another "just so happens" for people who ridicule situational miracles. "

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[TLK Valentine]

Fair enough, and in this case easy. Do you notice how much was derived from man and became manmade?

I think you need to distinguish between "Holy Spirit led" and "man's imaginations".

Are you suggesting that the survival of the nameless little girl you mentioned was a miracle, but Randal McCloy Jr.'s survival was a product of man's imaginations?

Because I assure you, he did survive, there's nothing imaginary about that. Google him if you like.

You promote the later because that is most if not all of what you happen to see. I agree there is a ton of man-derived situations and outcomes about Christianity, God, Miracles, and the like. Many do say this is from God or say it is by God but in truth it is not, it is man-derived.

So you're saying that God was not present for Randal McCloy Jr.? How can you tell?

You promote how these are fake, mere deceptions by men, mere imaginations that are not Miracles, and of these man-made, mad-derived things you are 100% correct.

I'm not saying it is or isn't a miracle -- I'm asking how can you tell?

But false leadings and promotions by man do not mean there are no real God led and God performed works amongst us. Because of the fake we cannot throw out the real, nor learn how to discern the real.

Are you dismissing Randal McCloy Jr.'s survival as a "fake" miracle? Because he did survive when 12 others died -- sounds pretty miraculous to me.

So what is your criteria for determining if a miracle has occurred?

I hear you when you state "why did God supposedly do this but not that",

Kindly show me where I stated that.

PROTIP: You can't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I guess Hess doesn't feel like showing me his biblical interpretation if those lines then

 

[Nithavela]

Your reply to the below is based on denial that it never happened. Well, it happened, now what!.

Now i assert that you are lying out of your teeth (or out of your keyboard). Again.

 

[Kylie]

.
No, I do not promote to receive what others say through blind acceptance. But I do not listen with doubt in my heart rather with the Holy Spirit in heart.

The trouble is that you classify "doubt" as anything that would give you cause to wonder if it isn't true. So you are intentionally biasing yourself, it would seem.

I ask you to read again how our brother sensed from the Holy Spirit the need to go home, and received an urgency to do so. You think his leading was not the Holy Spirit? Do you think it was mere coincidental?

I've seen plenty of strange coincidences.

And like I said, there are plenty of times something like this has happened and yet no one felt the urge to do anything. Are we to take this as the holy spirit not wanting these people to save their homes from gas explosions? Why would some people be helped like this and many others not?

 

[Heissonear]

Are you suggesting that the survival of the nameless little girl you mentioned was a miracle, but Randal McCloy Jr.'s survival was a product of man's imaginations?

Because I assure you, he did survive, there's nothing imaginary about that. Google him if you like.

So you're saying that God was not present for Randal McCloy Jr.? How can you tell?

I'm not saying it is or isn't a miracle -- I'm asking how can you tell?

Are you dismissing Randal McCloy Jr.'s survival as a "fake" miracle? Because he did survive when 12 others died -- sounds pretty miraculous to me.

So what is your criteria for determining if a miracle has occurred?

Kindly show me where I stated that.

PROTIP: You can't.

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So, you still manifest ploy!

Some people show dislike towards those who say there is a God, even those who show so by Spiritual events and even Miracles. Often this is based on how others have searched for Him and did not find Him while others in their search have found Him.

Then their is the "why then did God supposedly do this and not that" premise; God's selectivity, as you have put it. This often can make people show dislike.

You have been told of real Miracles but you do not discuss the Supernatural aspects that the Miracles demonstrated. Why do you choose to try and associate other events to the Miracles told to you? That is deviation of multiple kinds, deviations you introduce and make become the subject matter.

Why the deviations? Why the avoidance of the real Miracles presented to you?

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[TLK Valentine]

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So, you still manifest ploy!

Some people show dislike towards those who say there is a God, even those who show so by Spiritual events and even Miracles. Often this is based on how others have searched for Him and did not find Him while others in their search have found Him.

Then their is the "why then did God supposedly do this and not that" premise; God's selectivity, as you have put it. This often can make people show dislike.

You have been told of real Miracles but you do not discuss the Supernatural aspects that the Miracles demonstrated. Why do you choose to try and associate other events to the Miracles told to you? That is deviation of multiple kinds, deviations you introduce and make become the subject matter.

Why the deviations? Why the avoidance of the real Miracles presented to you?

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Why do you go to such great lengths to avoid my very simple question?

How do you determine what is a miracle and what is not?

 

[Kylie]

Why do you go to such great lengths to avoid my very simple question?

How do you determine what is a miracle and what is not?

I think the best answer you'll get is similar to John W.s Campbell's definition of science fiction...