How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[stevevw]

Even if Jesus does exist (and I agree the evidence is strong that someone named Jesus existed) and the places exist, does that mean everything in the Bible is true? It does not. You still need to show that Jesus is divine, that he performed miracles.

In the end it is still a book of stories that have been collected, some modified, some added. I would say that it is likely Jesus preached in that time in those places. But if you read the Bible, and do some research, I think you will find the historical Jesus is a very different Jesus than the one worshipped or followed today.

Thats right. I always think its important to at first separate the divine Jesus from the historical Jesus. Some will throw the baby out with the bath water.

So yes we would have to prove the supernatural Jesus if we are to show that he is truly God incarnate. But there is a case to say that the man Jesus was a preacher of Good will and helped a lot of people. That is his claim to fame just like Gandhi and Mother Teressa. Even though these people were never associated with the supernatural they were amazing people. So we can at least say that about Jesus. He is claimed to feed the poor, help the blind and sick, hang around prostitutes and leapers when everyone else stayed away and thought they were outcasts. He even challenged the religious system at the time and talked of a new way of loving others. The people that believed and followed him also did good work so he at least inspired others to do the same.

But when we look close at what actually happened back then we can see that there was something big that happened. People rose up fairly quickly and the christian movement grew and spread throughout the whole Roman empire in a relatively short time. It became the dominate religion of the very empire that wanted it snuffed out and crucified their leader. From this it has spread throughout the world to become the greatest movement in our history and effect the way we live and operate.

So if we say that there is nothing out of the ordinary about Jesus then we would have to say that he is one of the greatest people that has influenced our world. If you think about Elvis or President Kennedy or any great figure in history even Einstein we can say they havnt had such an impact like Jesus in the way that people followed him and gave up their lives. Even when we think of other great religious people they have never had this impact. So for a bloke who just went around doing good things like may others also have he has really effected us. Why would that be when others who have done similar havnt had this effect. If from that small city in Jerusalem this man has radiated into peoples hearts to every corner of the world for over 2000 years he must have had something going for him.

To me it goes beyond Him just being a great bloke who did good work. Somehow he has got under our skins like no other and effected us with what he has done or represented and it has lasted. Some say it was from the cross that it all started and every event and influence can be traced back to that cross where he died. From that moment thing really started to change and have great influence. The bible claims he rose from the dead so that we had victory over death itself so that we could have eternal life with God. Many believe this and that is the corner stone of what happened back then. We know he was crucified as an innocent man. But we have known innocents to have died for a cause before for others but not had such an impact that lasted. Jesus has done what no other has done so there must be something in that besides him just being a great person who did good.

 

[Nithavela]

But when we look close at what actually happened back then we can see that there was something big that happened. People rose up fairly quickly and the christian movement grew and spread throughout the whole Roman empire in a relatively short time. It became the dominate religion of the very empire that wanted it snuffed out and crucified their leader. From this it has spread throughout the world to become the greatest movement in our history and effect the way we live and operate.

Quite the same could be said about Islam, and Buddhism.

 

[Heissonear]

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

So which one is right? Because the bible is oh so reliable, it should be clear which one of these verses (which are complete contradictions of each other) is the right one and which on must be the work of the devil or some other such thing.

.

Without the Holy Spirit, interpretation of the Scriptures will not be one of your strengths.

I remember the day I was Baptized by the Holy Spirit and Born Again. What He reveals from the Scriptures is Wondrous!

I hope the same for you at some point in time ahead.

.

 

[AV1611VET]

I hope the same for you at some point in time ahead.

Seconded!

 

[stevevw]

Quite the same could be said about Islam, and Buddhism.

Yes except as far as i know they both say that they were only men who were great religious leaders. In the case of Buddah or Siddhartha Gautamahe was destined to be a great warrior by his father but instead became a Buddha when he seen the poverty and sickness of the people outside his palace. He was born into royalty but gave it up for being a Buddha.The other thing with Buddhism is that Christianity has four times as many followers.

As with Islam they have more followers but it is acknowledged Mohammad is a man and a great prophet. He was also a great warrior and fought battles and killed people. He has also been associated with some pretty suspect acts with a young girl and advocates his followers could take women as their prizes and even force themselves upon them. Islam believes in what seems like a similar God of the old testament who created everything. They believe in some of the old testament great men like Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. They also acknowledge Jesus as being real and a great prophet. They just seem to diverge and say that Mohammad was the last great prophet born in 570 AD.

Despite whether you believe any of these religions Jesus claimed that he was the son of God and was born by a divine act. The God of Christianity says He is the only one and there are no other Gods before Him. Jesus says that he is the only way to that God. The other religions allow other Gods and dont make these claims.

 

[PsychoSarah]

.

Without the Holy Spirit, interpretation of the Scriptures will not be one of your strengths.

I remember the day I was Baptized by the Holy Spirit and Born Again. What He reveals from the Scriptures is Wondrous!

I hope the same for you at some point in time ahead.

.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Paulos23]

Thats right. I always think its important to at first separate the divine Jesus from the historical Jesus. Some will throw the baby out with the bath water.

So yes we would have to prove the supernatural Jesus if we are to show that he is truly God incarnate. But there is a case to say that the man Jesus was a preacher of Good will and helped a lot of people. That is his claim to fame just like Gandhi and Mother Teressa. Even though these people were never associated with the supernatural they were amazing people. So we can at least say that about Jesus. He is claimed to feed the poor, help the blind and sick, hang around prostitutes and leapers when everyone else stayed away and thought they were outcasts. He even challenged the religious system at the time and talked of a new way of loving others. The people that believed and followed him also did good work so he at least inspired others to do the same.

But when we look close at what actually happened back then we can see that there was something big that happened. People rose up fairly quickly and the christian movement grew and spread throughout the whole Roman empire in a relatively short time. It became the dominate religion of the very empire that wanted it snuffed out and crucified their leader. From this it has spread throughout the world to become the greatest movement in our history and effect the way we live and operate.

So if we say that there is nothing out of the ordinary about Jesus then we would have to say that he is one of the greatest people that has influenced our world. If you think about Elvis or President Kennedy or any great figure in history even Einstein we can say they havnt had such an impact like Jesus in the way that people followed him and gave up their lives. Even when we think of other great religious people they have never had this impact. So for a bloke who just went around doing good things like may others also have he has really effected us. Why would that be when others who have done similar havnt had this effect. If from that small city in Jerusalem this man has radiated into peoples hearts to every corner of the world for over 2000 years he must have had something going for him.

To me it goes beyond Him just being a great bloke who did good work. Somehow he has got under our skins like no other and effected us with what he has done or represented and it has lasted. Some say it was from the cross that it all started and every event and influence can be traced back to that cross where he died. From that moment thing really started to change and have great influence. The bible claims he rose from the dead so that we had victory over death itself so that we could have eternal life with God. Many believe this and that is the corner stone of what happened back then. We know he was crucified as an innocent man. But we have known innocents to have died for a cause before for others but not had such an impact that lasted. Jesus has done what no other has done so there must be something in that besides him just being a great person who did good.

Just because it became popular doesn't mean that he was a great person. It means there where people (like Paul) who where great at spreading the message and/or idea of Jesus. Nor does it make the Christian belief something worth following.

I wish it did make him a great person, but I have seen bad ideas spread through the population so I know the spread of an idea doesn't make it right.

 

[Heissonear]

You didn't answer the question.

.

No, your question was answered but you did not like the answer given.

After a person is Born Again through the Spirit the Scriptures in the Bible start to become opened up to them by the work of the Spirit. You need to know the Author to know what He has used men to write.

As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-3 a person cannot know even the basic fundamentals unless God permits. That includes "scholars", even Greek and Hebrew theology scholars.

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

.

No, your question was answered but you did not like the answer given.

After a person is Born Again through the Spirit the Scriptures in the Bible start to become opened up to them by the work of the Spirit. You need to know the Author to know what He has used men to write.

As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-3 a person cannot know even the basic fundamentals unless God permits. That includes "scholars", even Greek and Hebrew theology scholars.

.

Then why are you so bad at this?

 

[stevevw]

Just because it became popular doesn't mean that he was a great person. It means there where people (like Paul) who where great at spreading the message and/or idea of Jesus. Nor does it make the Christian belief something worth following.

I wish it did make him a great person, but I have seen bad ideas spread through the population so I know the spread of an idea doesn't make it right.

Yes I agree. Its like politics. Hitler had propaganda and controlled the media and info to the people like in North Korea with Kim Jong-un. But that is more extreme. Its like a good salesman who convinces everyone that their products are the best. But to me those things dont last. Even so if you say it was like that its not a bad thing to sell.

The principles and teachings are good and promote good treatment of others. It promotes a healthy lifestyle in all physical mental and spiritual. I could think of worse things promoted even with diets and the next new big fad about how to achieve inner peace by following this simple new life plan. Now you can down load the app or buy the book or CD. There was one that was all the rage on tele recently that some women had invented a new app that helped you live a better life. It had things to do and reminders about positive thoughts. Things like be kind to someone today or give something away to another and you will find inner peace. Its like now everything is promoted and sold as the next new way to live. We have to tell ourselves that this is a good thing to do and sell it to others like its the latest fad. All this is already in Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.

It all comes down to whether you believe that Jesus did what was said. That the words in the Bible are the words of Jesus. The writers knew Him or had first hand info from those who knew him. Surely when you have so many stories and people saying the same thing that there must have been some truth in it. They say where there is smoke there is fire. Even if you make 10% or maybe 20% it still makes for a person who was doing and promoting more good than bad. To get famous for something like that seems unusual. To have someone else promote you so much that you are going out of your way to do so. For many to give up their lives even to the death. Certainly we can say that there were Christians who did this because there was so many. To then make claims of Jesus coming back from the dead and the miracles of healing which defied logic. This seems like crazy and irrational behavior from someone who is not in control of their faculties and has been totally deluded.

Yet when you look at the writings and the instructions of Jesus and his followers you dont see or sense any irrational and over the top thinking. Its common sense and very rational as far as I see. It makes a lot of sense and is very wise advice. It also seems good for the mind as it promotes peace with others and not living with hatred and grudges. So as a way of life I think its good to promote. Its whether you believe that all those qualities come from Believing in Jesus and having him live in your life so that he guides you and not the ways of the world. Like I said there's a 101 ways to live like this but it always seems to change and fade away or get corrupted or not produce the results and lets everyone down.

Whereas Jesus is the same.

Hebrews 13:8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

.

No, your question was answered but you did not like the answer given.

After a person is Born Again through the Spirit the Scriptures in the Bible start to become opened up to them by the work of the Spirit. You need to know the Author to know what He has used men to write.

As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-3 a person cannot know even the basic fundamentals unless God permits. That includes "scholars", even Greek and Hebrew theology scholars.

.

Why hasn't your god given you the ability to convince others about the truth of what you are saying?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why hasn't your god given you the ability to convince others about the truth of what you are saying?

Noah preached 120 years without a single convert.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Noah preached 120 years without a single convert.

That was most likely by design, however.

 

[Paulos23]

Yes I agree. Its like politics. Hitler had propaganda and controlled the media and info to the people like in North Korea with Kim Jong-un. But that is more extreme. Its like a good salesman who convinces everyone that their products are the best. But to me those things dont last. Even so if you say it was like that its not a bad thing to sell.

The principles and teachings are good and promote good treatment of others. It promotes a healthy lifestyle in all physical mental and spiritual. I could think of worse things promoted even with diets and the next new big fad about how to achieve inner peace by following this simple new life plan. Now you can down load the app or buy the book or CD. There was one that was all the rage on tele recently that some women had invented a new app that helped you live a better life. It had things to do and reminders about positive thoughts. Things like be kind to someone today or give something away to another and you will find inner peace. Its like now everything is promoted and sold as the next new way to live. We have to tell ourselves that this is a good thing to do and sell it to others like its the latest fad. All this is already in Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.

It all comes down to whether you believe that Jesus did what was said. That the words in the Bible are the words of Jesus. The writers knew Him or had first hand info from those who knew him. Surely when you have so many stories and people saying the same thing that there must have been some truth in it. They say where there is smoke there is fire. Even if you make 10% or maybe 20% it still makes for a person who was doing and promoting more good than bad. To get famous for something like that seems unusual. To have someone else promote you so much that you are going out of your way to do so. For many to give up their lives even to the death. Certainly we can say that there were Christians who did this because there was so many. To then make claims of Jesus coming back from the dead and the miracles of healing which defied logic. This seems like crazy and irrational behavior from someone who is not in control of their faculties and has been totally deluded.

Yet when you look at the writings and the instructions of Jesus and his followers you dont see or sense any irrational and over the top thinking. Its common sense and very rational as far as I see. It makes a lot of sense and is very wise advice. It also seems good for the mind as it promotes peace with others and not living with hatred and grudges. So as a way of life I think its good to promote. Its whether you believe that all those qualities come from Believing in Jesus and having him live in your life so that he guides you and not the ways of the world. Like I said there's a 101 ways to live like this but it always seems to change and fade away or get corrupted or not produce the results and lets everyone down.

Whereas Jesus is the same.

Hebrews 13:8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

It is questionable that the writers knew him first hand. At best you have Paul who got information second hand at best. If you have read up on Biblical scollars instead of theologins you would know that.

 

[Heissonear]

Why hasn't your god given you the ability to convince others about the truth of what you are saying?

.

Nobody can hide from Him or dodge Him, for He is always near and knows to the last detail what you do and say. Since your youth He has passed you through seasons to turn to Him by His doing and your freewill. I missed many of those seasons before I finally turned by His working and revealing. It has and will continue to be ultimately up to you.

And if He could turn me He can turn anybody.

Fleshly people are use to looking at the outer and do not understand how He works with the mind, heart, and circumstances of people all the time. Another season for you may be near.

.

 

[BL2KTN]

Hey Heissonear, when you going to give us any of that info I requested weeks ago about the miracle? You have names, locations, medical records, etc, yet?

Time didn't change my opinion of you as a charlatan.

 

[stevevw]

It is questionable that the writers knew him first hand. At best you have Paul who got information second hand at best. If you have read up on Biblical scollars instead of theologins you would know that.

You would think out of all the writers, all the witnesses and the fact that a lot of what was written was well within the life time of the thousands who had seen Jesus or were around when he walked the earth that they havnt got some of it right. Some of the writers are traced back to very close to the events. Some of Paul's letters are traced back to only a matter of years after Christ. But certainly most of it is written with the 1st century which would still have eye witnesses around. Some of the authors state they are witnesses and are telling the truth. All their other writings indicate them to be fair and honest people without being irrational. So surely there is an element of truth in it all.

 

[Kylie]

Some of Paul's letters are traced back to only a matter of years after Christ.

Source for this please?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Noah preached 120 years without a single convert.

You'd think he would have been too busy.

 

[stevevw]

Source for this please?

There are many different sources that will date Paul's writing from about 48AD to 60AD. So we can say that possibly only 15 years after Christs death or even earlier Paul was writing to the churches. You have to remember that from Christs crucifixion the church grew fast and Paul was going around doing his preaching. So even though his earliest works are dated 15 years or so after the death of Christ his preaching and words were being said even sooner after Christs death. His letters are to churches he had already visited earlier with encouragement and instruction so the words were around from a very close time after Jesus.

Paul also mentions and quotes some of the Gospel in some of his letters which would indicate that at least some were written before his later letters of around 50 to 60 AD. It would seem they would have been at least written before the fall of the temple in 70Ad as this was a major fulfillment of prophesy that was already mentioned in the new testament. Yet we read nothing about the destruction of the temple in any of the Gospels or new testament.

Finally, the majority of New Testament scholars believe that Paul's epistles are written from A.D. 48-60.
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels - Probe Ministries

The earliest works which came to be part of the New Testament are the letters of the Apostle Paul. The earliest of the books of the New Testament was First Thessalonians, an epistle of Paul, written probably in 51, or possibly Galatians in 49 according to one of two theories of its writing.
New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can get some more but there are all fairly similar.