How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Paulos23]

You would think out of all the writers, all the witnesses and the fact that a lot of what was written was well within the life time of the thousands who had seen Jesus or were around when he walked the earth that they havnt got some of it right. Some of the writers are traced back to very close to the events. Some of Paul's letters are traced back to only a matter of years after Christ. But certainly most of it is written with the 1st century which would still have eye witnesses around. Some of the authors state they are witnesses and are telling the truth. All their other writings indicate them to be fair and honest people without being irrational. So surely there is an element of truth in it all.

Oh I imagine some of it is right, but how much and what? 80%? 60%? What if it was only 40%? Would you feel you still had an good idea of Jesus' teachings?

 

[AGTG]

I have a similar miraculous story. One night when my wife were out a church coffee night of praise and worship the Holy Spirit impressed upon me that we should go home immediately. We had only been there a short time, and I didn't want to appear as though we weren't enjoying the music or that we weren't supportive of the ministry. But the Holy Spirit kept pressing me.

I eventually insisted my wife and I go home.

When we got home, our house was filled with gas vapor. Our dog had jumped up on the stovetop to get at a greasy pan my wife left on the stove. When he did so, he spun one of the gas burner controls. Not only that, it was in the perfect position to allow the auto spark to click, click, click. It was sparking even as I approached the stove and the whole house was filled with natural gas.

I told my wife to go down by the driveway as I shut it off and opened up all the windows.

God's timing is perfect. We owned that house for one year and the Lord helped us sell it for a $30,000 dollar profit so we could pay down debt and I could go into fulltime ministry.

Satan was trying to destroy our substance, but God rebuked the devourer on our behalf and got us home in time to keep the place from blowing up. God's timing is always perfect.

 

[Kylie]

I have a similar miraculous story. One night when my wife were out a church coffee night of praise and worship the Holy Spirit impressed upon me that we should go home immediately. We had only been there a short time, and I didn't want to appear as though we weren't enjoying the music or that we weren't supportive of the ministry. But the Holy Spirit kept pressing me.

I eventually insisted my wife and I go home.

When we got home, our house was filled with gas vapor. Our dog had jumped up on the stovetop to get at a greasy pan my wife left on the stove. When he did so, he spun one of the gas burner controls. Not only that, it was in the perfect position to allow the auto spark to click, click, click. It was sparking even as I approached the stove and the whole house was filled with natural gas.

I told my wife to go down by the driveway as I shut it off and opened up all the windows.

God's timing is perfect. We owned that house for one year and the Lord helped us sell it for a $30,000 dollar profit so we could pay down debt and I could go into fulltime ministry.

Satan was trying to destroy our substance, but God rebuked the devourer on our behalf and got us home in time to keep the place from blowing up. God's timing is always perfect.

A simpler solution would have been for God to urge you to clean up the pan before you left....

And, of course, all of this would have been possible without any supernatural beings.

And also, what about the times when terrible things have happened because people DIDN'T act? Are we to conclude that God wanted Satan to win in these cases?

 

[Kylie]

There are many different sources that will date Paul's writing from about 48AD to 60AD. So we can say that possibly only 15 years after Christs death or even earlier Paul was writing to the churches. You have to remember that from Christs crucifixion the church grew fast and Paul was going around doing his preaching. So even though his earliest works are dated 15 years or so after the death of Christ his preaching and words were being said even sooner after Christs death. His letters are to churches he had already visited earlier with encouragement and instruction so the words were around from a very close time after Jesus.

Paul also mentions and quotes some of the Gospel in some of his letters which would indicate that at least some were written before his later letters of around 50 to 60 AD. It would seem they would have been at least written before the fall of the temple in 70Ad as this was a major fulfillment of prophesy that was already mentioned in the new testament. Yet we read nothing about the destruction of the temple in any of the Gospels or new testament.

Finally, the majority of New Testament scholars believe that Paul's epistles are written from A.D. 48-60.
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels - Probe Ministries

The earliest works which came to be part of the New Testament are the letters of the Apostle Paul. The earliest of the books of the New Testament was First Thessalonians, an epistle of Paul, written probably in 51, or possibly Galatians in 49 according to one of two theories of its writing.
New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can get some more but there are all fairly similar.

I'll accept this for the moment, but reserve the right to change my mind if presented with more evidence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

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No, your question was answered but you did not like the answer given.

After a person is Born Again through the Spirit the Scriptures in the Bible start to become opened up to them by the work of the Spirit. You need to know the Author to know what He has used men to write.

As mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-3 a person cannot know even the basic fundamentals unless God permits. That includes "scholars", even Greek and Hebrew theology scholars.

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Oh, but you supposedly have been born again, so you should still be able to give me a direct answer to my question. Even if I am somehow impaired in interpreting scripture and you are not, that doesn't stop you from showing me your "correct" interpretation as per you being born again.

 

[stevevw]

Oh I imagine some of it is right, but how much and what? 80%? 60%? What if it was only 40%? Would you feel you still had an good idea of Jesus' teachings?

Well first I wanted to see if you believed any of it was right. Some just reject it all and dont see that we have a great book that can give us insights into what it was like back then. I would imagine there are not to many written material and books that are around that can have this.

Some archeologists use the bible as their guide to the digs they do around those areas and it has proven very accurate. In the past when the bible has named people and places that have never been verified archeologist find the evidence sooner or later.

its hard to say as I'm not an expert on these matters. But I would say that the bible is fairly accurate with the names and places in it. There is a reasonable amount of support for many of the people named in the bible. This gives me confidence that what is weaved around those places and times is fairly correct as well. Jesus did have disciples but there is some debate as to who the people were. We have some good evidence for some and patchy evidence for others. But the fact is there were a group of people close to Jesus. This is the same for the other characters and I have no good reason to doubt that these people existed.

Using common sense you would have to admit that there had to be something that happened fairly close to what was written. If they have got the events and and places correct and at least some of it was written near that time then what good reason would they have for making up stories. You can say they can make up things about Christ doing a miracle. But what would the point be to lie about all the other events that are just describing everyday events and places.

But it will diverge when we talk about the miracles and other supernatural events. This cant be proven. We can only question whether the people involved were telling the truth. I happen to believe what has been said. There maybe some smaller inconsistencies and room for human error but the basic story thats been told seems true enough for me.

If it was only 40% true I would have to see a lot of evidence for this which i dont see. As we cant completely determine if miracles did happen or not then we cant give it a % either way. So I would say apart from that it is much greater than 40%. In fact I cant see to much wrong with it at all.

If we take for example the birth of Jesus. How do we prove it was true or not. There was a census around that time so historically it lines up. But how do you prove or disprove that two people Mary and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem where Jesus was born a virgin birth. Non believers will say its impossible and logic says it cant happen. They will want proof of a miracle birth. But believers will think it happened. But how do you really prove it either way. So for a believer that sits pretty well as his faith gives him confidence that it happened and no contradictory evidence has disproved it.

 

[Nithavela]

If we take for example the birth of Jesus. How do we prove it was true or not. There was a census around that time so historically it lines up.

Actually, there are a few problems with this census and the gospel of luke lining up. (Strange that no other gospel mentions this census, too)

Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1886, the theologian Emil Schürer, in his monumental study, Geschichte des judischen Volks im Zeitalter Jesu Christi (A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ), closely criticised the traditional view. He raised five points which showed, he believed, that the Luke account could not be historically accurate:

1. Nothing is known in history of a general census by Augustus;
2. In a Roman census Joseph would not have had to travel to Bethlehem, and Mary would not have had to travel at all;
3. No Roman census would have been made in Judea during the reign of Herod;
4. Josephus records no such census and it would have been a notable innovation;
5. Quirinius was not governor of Syria until long after the reign of Herod

http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/census.htm

So, amusingly enough, although the Gospel of Luke was written only 100 years after the birth of Jesus (give or take a few), he got some things seriously wrong.

Not even most modern bible scholars believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and during this census. You do, though.

Why?

Think about that.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is questionable that the writers knew him first hand. At best you have Paul who got information second hand at best. If you have read up on Biblical scollars instead of theologins you would know that.

People were judged on their accuracy in those days. There are no records of any complaints about the accuracy or trust in the writers.
And nothing has been found seriously wrong anywhere. Except critics.

 

[SkyWriting]

Actually, there are a few problems with this census and the gospel of luke lining up. (Strange that no other gospel mentions this census, too)

You mean it's strange that all the gospels are not word for word the same?
I can't see the value in that. Seems to me if they all cover the same ground
there would be reason to doubt they had different sources.

 

[Heissonear]

A simpler solution would have been for God to urge you to clean up the pan before you left....

And, of course, all of this would have been possible without any supernatural beings.

And also, what about the times when terrible things have happened because people DIDN'T act? Are we to conclude that God wanted Satan to win in these cases?

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Rather than trying to understand God's ways you are critical in evaluating them.

The Spiritual Realm is real and Satanic forces play a role.

You have no idea how many similar "the Holy Spirit led me to ........" events have happened in just your lifetime. Of all types of circumstances but with the common theme "if we did not hear and obey the Holy Spirit" the outcomes would have been destructions rather than blessings in many ways.

Thank you Brother for sharing your Supernatural event: how Supernatural Powers influence the natural and how you were instrumental and directly involved.

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I have a similar miraculous story. One night when my wife were out a church coffee night of praise and worship the Holy Spirit impressed upon me that we should go home immediately. We had only been there a short time, and I didn't want to appear as though we weren't enjoying the music or that we weren't supportive of the ministry. But the Holy Spirit kept pressing me.

I eventually insisted my wife and I go home.

When we got home, our house was filled with gas vapor. Our dog had jumped up on the stovetop to get at a greasy pan my wife left on the stove. When he did so, he spun one of the gas burner controls. Not only that, it was in the perfect position to allow the auto spark to click, click, click. It was sparking even as I approached the stove and the whole house was filled with natural gas.

I told my wife to go down by the driveway as I shut it off and opened up all the windows.

God's timing is perfect. We owned that house for one year and the Lord helped us sell it for a $30,000 dollar profit so we could pay down debt and I could go into fulltime ministry.

Satan was trying to destroy our substance, but God rebuked the devourer on our behalf and got us home in time to keep the place from blowing up. God's timing is always perfect.

Here's another miracle story...

The Sago Mine disaster of Jan 2, 2006 was one of the worst mining accidents in West Virginia history. 13 miners were trapped underground. A day later, when reports came out that 12 out of the 13 miners were found alive, well, you can imagine how much God was praised in such a deeply religious community like Tallmansville, WV. Even then-Governor Joe Manchin announced that the people should "believe in miracles" from that point on.

Now, the bad news is that the reports were incorrect -- 12 out of the 13 miners were not found alive, in fact, the truth was that 12 were dead, and Randal McCloy, Jr, was the sole survivor. Now, IMO, the fact that anyone survived an explosion two miles deep in a coal mine is pretty darn miraculous, but for some reason, all the "miracle" talk stopped abruptly once the more accurate reports were made public.


I guess the moral of the story is people who want to give God credit for highly improbable events shouldn't always assume that those events are meant to break in their favor. Is it any less a miracle when you get the short end of the stick?

 

[Heissonear]

Here's another miracle story...

The Sago Mine disaster of Jan 2, 2006 was one of the worst mining accidents in West Virginia history. 13 miners were trapped underground. A day later, when reports came out that 12 out of the 13 miners were found alive, well, you can imagine how much God was praised in such a deeply religious community like Tallmansville, WV. Even then-Governor Joe Manchin announced that the people should "believe in miracles" from that point on.

Now, the bad news is that the reports were incorrect -- 12 out of the 13 miners were not found alive, in fact, the truth was that 12 were dead, and Randal McCloy, Jr, was the sole survivor. Now, IMO, the fact that anyone survived an explosion two miles deep in a coal mine is pretty darn miraculous, but for some reason, all the "miracle" talk stopped abruptly once the more accurate reports were made public.


I guess the moral of the story is people who want to give God credit for highly improbable events shouldn't always assume that those events are meant to break in their favor. Is it any less a miracle when you get the short end of the stick?

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Mr. TLK

You are in over your head. The just so happens point of view gets a little thin the more one learns about case after case after case.

A group of families met at a brothers home after a church meeting. There were many families with their kids playing and walking around. A point came when of the Lord's ministers felt urgently impressed that one of the childern was going to drown. The impression became pronounced until he called everybody's attention and asked if they knew where their kids were. One family said their little two year old was missing. The one who was distressed by the Lord's Spirit started briskly out of the house and to the dock in back of the house. As he went towards the dock he heard within "run" so he ran. As he got onto the dock he urgently heard "run to the end and jump into the water at full speed". The Lord's minister, in a suit, without hesitant did so and the next thing he knew he was in the water. As he opened his eyes their was the little girl underwater right before him. He quickly grabbed her and brought her to shore where she received help getting the water from her lungs, at which point she started breathing.

I know these precious brothers and talked to the minister who rescued the little girl shortly after it happened.

Nobody knew where the little girl went. Nobody knew she had fallen into the lake at the end of the dock. Nobody knew where she would be at the moment people realized she was missing. Just another "just so happens" for people who ridicule situational miracles.

What the Lord is up to through His Spirit is amazing, particularly to those who heed, follow, and know Him!

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For example, here is "just one more" just so happens!

 

[Nithavela]

May I make up a story, too?

 

[TLK Valentine]

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Mr. TLK

You are in over your head. The just so happens point of view gets a little thin the more one learns about case after case after case.

I'm sorry; is this supposed to be English?

For example, here is "just one more" just so happens!

A group of families met at a brothers home after a church meeting. There were many families with their kids playing and walking around. A point came when of the Lord's ministers felt urgently impressed that one of the childern was going to drown. The impression became pronounced until he called everybody's attention and asked if they knew where their kids were. One family said their little two year old was missing. The one who was distressed by the Lord's Spirit started briskly out of the house and to the dock in back of the house. As he went towards the dock he heard within "run" so he ran. As he got onto the dock he urgently heard "run to the end and jump into the water at full speed". The Lord's minister, in a suit, without hesitant did so and the next thing he knew he was in the water. As he opened his eyes their was the little girl underwater right before him. He quickly grabbed her and brought her to shore where she received help getting the water from her lungs, at which point she started breathing.

I know these precious brothers and talked to the minister who rescued the little girl shortly after it happened.

Nobody knew where the little girl went. Nobody knew she had fallen into the lake at the end of the dock. Nobody knew where she would be at the moment people realized she was missing. Just another "just so happens" for people who ridicule situational miracles.

What the Lord is up to through His Spirit is amazing, particularly to those who heed, follow, and know Him!

.

So, did she have to survive for it to be considered an official "miracle"? because had she drowned, the minister's supernatural aid in finder her body would've given the family a sense of closure.

That still counts, right?

 

[Heissonear]

I'm sorry; is this supposed to be English?

So, did she have to survive for it to be considered an official "miracle"? because had she drowned, the minister's supernatural aid in finder her body would've given the family a sense of closure.

That still counts, right?

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You turn a deaf ear to many things of God happening around you. You act like Miracles from God do not happen. This is not a coin flipping contest. There is Spiritual Dynamics happening around us all the time by Him on High.

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[Kylie]

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Rather than trying to understand God's ways you are critical in evaluating them.

The Spiritual Realm is real and Satanic forces play a role.

You have no idea how many similar "the Holy Spirit led me to ........" events have happened in just your lifetime. Of all types of circumstances but with the common theme "if we did not hear and obey the Holy Spirit" the outcomes would have been destructions rather than blessings in many ways.

Thank you Brother for sharing your Supernatural event: how Supernatural Powers influence the natural and how you were instrumental and directly involved.

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So you advocate blind acceptance and a lack of critical thought?

Where would the world be if we all did that?

 

[TLK Valentine]

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You turn a deaf ear to many things of God happening around you. You act like Miracles from God do not happen. This is not a coin flipping contest. There is Spiritual Dynamics happening around us all the time by Him on High.

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I didn't say miracles didn't happen; I asked if it still counted as a "miracle" if the girl hadn't survived.

Why can't you give an answer?

 

[Heissonear]

I didn't say miracles didn't happen; I asked if it still counted as a "miracle" if the girl hadn't survived.

Why can't you give an answer?

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Do Miracles happen - where God through His Power Rules over the natural?

Did the minister that jumped in the lake to find and save the little girl hear the Holy Spirit within his spirit? Did he really hear God and it showed by the outcome?

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[TLK Valentine]

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Do Miracles happen - where God through His Power Rules over the natural?

Did the minister that jumped in the lake to find and save the little girl hear the Holy Spirit within his spirit? Did he really hear God and it showed by the outcome?

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Cool questions, bro -- a pity you have no answer to mine.

 

[Heissonear]

So you advocate blind acceptance and a lack of critical thought?

Where would the world be if we all did that?

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No, I do not promote to receive what others say through blind acceptance. But I do not listen with doubt in my heart rather with the Holy Spirit in heart. Those who know and listen to their spirit find truth differently than those who lean only on their brain and mental capacities. As we mature in spirit, even our mind and intellect minding our spirit, the Holy Spirit impresses in our spirit many things we face, and in essence gives understanding in time if need of right from wrong, truth from error, and good from evil.

However, currently you are living only in a physical world with no help from the Holy Spirit, nor sensitivity in your spirit towards the Holy Spirit and do not have experience nor maturity in how He leads us in life. You do not have an anointing from Him.

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God" Romans 8:14

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know" I John 2:20

"The anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things" I John 2:27

I ask you to read again how our brother sensed from the Holy Spirit the need to go home, and received an urgency to do so. You think his leading was not the Holy Spirit? Do you think it was mere coincidental?

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