The Problem of Evil

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...

...see any Ice Giants...?

...

Thank Thor for one less thing to worry about. I live up North. We take ice giants seriously around here.

According to Snorri Sturluson, Thor will fight the final battle, and die after being poisoned by the Midgard Serpent. He will then disappear. Thor is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnibenevolent. He's not even immortal. His hammer is very cool.

Problem of evil doesn't apply to him at all.

I'm trying to think of gods vulnerable to the problem of evil. The Abrahamic ones are. The Greek gods shouldn't be, but Epicurus, a Greek, posed the problem as a logical issue. That would imply the religion had developed in that direction by 3rd century bce. Norse, Egyptian, Babylonian gods are not triple omni, but maybe they each had their own Epicurus which we know nothing about. idk about the Hindus, Buddhists, East Asian and Central-South American religions.
 
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Levi777

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Yeah, yeah, "agree with me suffer for eternity." Oldest trick in the priestly book.

As I said, evil is considered as "another will". The fruit of this "another will" is the evil deeds in the earth, and corruption instances like plagues, and disease. That is the fruit of the will that can never create life nor sustain life. That "another will" will not be allowed in heaven for it's well-demonstrated cause of wrecking life and creation. And those who cling to "another will" will go with the creator of "another will", to that place where God is not.

This is not a joy. It is a deep sadness. Even as we will be overjoyed when God finally destroys evil forever, so the loss of people who just will not turn to a life to honor Him will be a great sorrow. Rather God is calling everyone everywhere to turn and repent.
 
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Levi777

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How do you claim that Thor a "myth", and the xtian deities are not? THe evidence for the existence of each is precisely the same.





"demonic cult"

-- Is that even supposed to mean.....anything? -- especially to anyone who doesn't believe in such myths?




Good -- then send him over to my place for beers.




"Mock"...? Try "refute the claims of...".






Strawman/Red Herring much? What atheist believes in thor? You appear to be attempting to dodge the utter destruction of your claim by disingenuously accusing your interlocutor of believing in the trivial content of the Reductio Ad Absurdum rebuttal that was presented.





HipTip: Look up: Argumentum Ad Baculum Fallacy.


I ran into you people on Newsvine, and you bring nothing new to the table. All you do is waste time and go through this endless exercise...you are accomplishing nothing. Jesus said, "Wickedness will increase and overflow, and the love of most people will grow cold; but the one who endures to the end will be saved."

What does "wickedness will increase and overflow" look like? It has many faces, and part of it is the endless atheistic drivel on discussion forums that only seek to tear down, and are symptomatic of "another will". You will not consider the truth, so far down the path of mocking and ridicule that you have gone that you make yourself an object of opposition.

I will stop responding to you and hunrun. I really have no patience left for this atheistic drivel. Go ahead and be heroes in your own minds. Worship your intellect and that is the best it will ever be for you.
 
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Skybringr

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...As if we were incapable of altruism, compassion, and empathy -- all qualities that this entity would have supposedly "programmed us with in the first place -- without this "evil"? That's simply incoherent.




Ad hoc assertion, Black Swan Fallacy. We naturally care for each other without someone else inflicting "evil" on us to prompt us to do so.




Sweeping generalization much?





Really? [citation needed].





'Nuther Black Swan Fallacy. And Ad Hoc assertion.





....what is that supposed to even mean?






OH, and heeeeeeere it comes.....wait for it......oh, there it is:

[citation needed]

This is all just load of nonsense- a way to just dodge around the inevitable.

Nothing quite says 'temper tantrum' like fallacy-fallacy-fallacy-citation-put your ear muffs on and hear nothing but your own brain tinkering

That's atheism for you.

Not even worth my time.
 
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andy b

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That leaves us with the question "Why the heck would God want a physical world to exist?"

to experience it or be part of it........playing football on a play station isn't the same as playing it on a park
 
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bhsmte

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to experience it or be part of it........playing football on a play station isn't the same as playing it on a park

In your world, does the God you believe in take active participation in the world, or does he just observe/experience the world?
 
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Loudmouth

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1. God is immoral if He requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

2. God requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

3. Therefore, God is immoral

This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.

What needs defending?

If you have a cure for cancer that costs you nothing it would be immoral to withhold that cure just because someone refuses to stroke your ego.

How is that not obvious?

1. If God exists, then nobody would have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

2. People have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

3. Therefore, God does not exist.

This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.

Either God does not exist, or God is immoral. Take your pick.

1. God is immoral if His plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

2. God's plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

3. Therefore, God is immoral.


This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.

I will gladly wait for you to respond to it.

LOL, who said contracting HIV was a punishment?

Since God could stop it at any time, how could it not be a punishment?


It is against the law I would suppose would be the reason.


No, I did not realize that. You have any of these testimonies?

Before I present them, if they exist will you convert to that religion?
 
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ThinkForYourself

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This is all just load of nonsense- a way to just dodge around the inevitable.

Nothing quite says 'temper tantrum' like fallacy-fallacy-fallacy-citation-put your ear muffs on and hear nothing but your own brain tinkering

That's atheism for you.

Not even worth my time.

They did bring up some great points, didn't they.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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NonSequitur2014.jpg


Non-sequitur.

Noooo....

Not even remotely a non sequitur. You described an unloving plan in which people are allowed to suffer. That's not a non sequitur at all. You can look up the definition of the phrase on wikipedia if you'd like. It would probably help you a great deal if you're going to post in the Philosophy section.



And they would be wrong. Just because a Christian has a view about something, it does not follow that that view is biblical.

So a baby dying from ebola doesn't deserve it?

A man died and stood before God and God asks the man why he did not believe in Him and the man replies. "you did not help the suffering babies who were dying from ebola!" God replies, "remember the first time you read about the plight of these children and how you felt a sense of compassion for them?" The man replies, "yes." God then says, "I had arranged for you to personally be able to help in alleviating these children's suffering by giving you the money and the means to help them, but you were too concerned about arguing with a Christian on an internet forum and the window of opportunity came and went. Since you found the children unworthy of your time effort and money, I sent my own followers to help these children and even now, after your death, they are giving their lives, effort, time and money for the sake of these children. So you see, it was you who was evil in not helping when you could have. I wanted to give you the awesome privilege of being able to see a sick child recover and go on to grow up and know that you had a part in it. But you rejected the opportunity. You rejected it because you did not love them."

This Todd, is what you need to think long and hard about.

So you believe your god allows excruciating pain and suffering so that I have the chance to feel a bit better about myself? That's... horrible...

A loving god could give me ways to feel good about myself without allowing any suffering at all. A loving god wouldn't pass the buck when he knows that he can eliminate suffering without any effort, and we cannot.

If your child asks you for a loaded gun or a cup of rat poison you would not give it to them.

Why not? Remember in this scenario I'm omnipotent, like your god is supposed to be. A loaded gun or rat poison wouldn't hurt my child.

I've said it before, you Christians throw out "omnipotent" when it's convenient, but then forget about it when discussing what your god should be able to do.

What have you done to alleviate the pain of children suffering from ebola?

What does that have to do with the fact that your god is seemingly unloving?
 
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Skybringr

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Either God does not exist, or God is immoral. Take your pick.

God is immoral because He gave mankind the capacity to choose and act between good and evil?

It's by that gambit that you can even feel that God is immoral. The supreme irony rests right there, as it could easily be said that God would be immoral if He made you not be able to have such freedom.

Since God could stop it at any time, how could it not be a punishment?
Reaping what one sows is the centrifugal force of what you call 'punishment'.
God calls homosexuality an abomination, and the majority of HIV is indeed manifested among homosexuals.
Did God cause it, or are people just reaping what they sow? If your father teaches you that something is wrong, and you go and do it anyway, it is by your hand what you reap.

A big mistake is blaming God for everything. I think people need to learn some accountability and stop putting it all on the Creator.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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God is off the hook because the blame is assigned to the one who is to blame, sinful man, not a Holy God.

It is because of the choice of a man, that sin is in this world, and death through sin. God did not cause Adam to sin. Adam sinned because he wanted something even after being warned what would happen for disobeying God.

Your god could have created a universe in which its inhabitants would not sin, but he chose to instead create a universe in which he knew that they would. So your god is squarely to blame. In fact, your god necessarily desires suffering, because he presumably created the universe the way he wanted to.

If you do not love the children dying of Ebola and have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, then you and everyone else like you are to blame. Not God.

This is ridiculous. If your god was a loving god, he would eliminate suffering... because he loves us. This whole "passing the buck" line is unloving in and of itself. If it was within my power to eliminate the suffering of my child, I wouldn't put the onus on someone else. Because that would be... unloving.
 
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andy b

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In your world, does the God you believe in take active participation in the world, or does he just observe/experience the world?

when an artist paints a picture he doesn't need to be in it......but he can always go back and change it if needed
 
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Huntun

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Re God either doesn't exist or is evil. There are actually other options if you look outside traditional omnimax theology. Take Process Theism, Open Theism, Manicheanism, or even the more strongly dualist strain of traditional Zoroastrianism. God isn't all powerful there.

Not saying I buy into any of those theories but the said God's could exist without being "evil" (cruel, inhumane, lacking compassion etc..)

Process Theism particularly seems one of the few species of Theism that isn't blatantly contradictory or irrational. Thing is I don't see it as having much to do with Christianity at least in the Biblical sense but most adherents still call themselves that. The God of philosophers and the god of supposedly revealed religions and their scriptures are often an awkward fit.
 
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Skybringr

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In your world, does the God you believe in take active participation in the world, or does he just observe/experience the world?

According to the Catholic Church, the universe was formed out of the grace of God. Since God is perfect unto Himself, there does not have to be an explicit reason- there is nothing God 'needs'.

Creation is the product of grace, what we do within it is our own bidding, as the scriptures teach that men have preeminence over the Earth and it's creatures, and among itself, government and order.

God intervened with supreme anger at what mankind had become. Instead of being the great celebrants of His creation, we instead started to murder each other. The point to be made is that man did this, not God.

God toiled the world with the Flood, and then laid down seed with Noah, Moses, David, and so on.
This is when God became very active with the world and the forgotten testimony of Him reestablished.
 
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Skybringr

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Ad hoc assertion, Black Swan Fallacy.

Sweeping generalization much?

Really? [citation needed].

'Nuther Black Swan Fallacy. And Ad Hoc assertion.

....what is that supposed to even mean?

OH, and heeeeeeere it comes.....wait for it......oh, there it is:

[citation needed]

....who promised to rid the world of Ice Giants, as distinguished from promising to rid the world of "sin".

...see any Ice Giants...?

Strawman much?

.....what, because some yahoo on the interwebz says so?

I'm sorry, am I supposed to be impressed with a fallacious appeal to authority that employs a literary figure I do not believe in?

That statement is completely meaningless to me.

Oh, yes -- THAT'S what it means: You were winding up to pitch an Ad Hominem Fallacy.

Mind-Reading Fallacy much?

Does that even mean anything?

Yes, it is quite frustrating to have irrational beliefs examined objectively, and watch them wither in the light of day.

Project much?

Strawman much?

What, because some yahoo on the interwebz says so?

Loading up for another Ad Baculum Fallacy, mate?

Nothing says "Ad Hominem Fallacy" like

Project much?

Let's look at this little compilation I've put together from the last several posts from you.

Do you see anything wrong? Because I do, and anyone else with a sober mind would as well.

That is not proper debate. You really are guilty of grand fallacies, ironically, in doing what you're doing.

According to your story, this god created everything. Which means that it created this "evil" you speak of (which is a quite disputable concept as well), and could have chosen to not "create" it, or allow it to be a factor in its creation. So, yes.
The Bible comes right out and says God created evil. You should muscle up on the teachings of Abrahamic religion if you are going to dispute it so absurdly.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
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bhsmte

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when an artist paints a picture he doesn't need to be in it......but he can always go back and change it if needed

Ok, so back to my original question.

Does the God you believe in have any influence (or does he influence) what happens in this world, or is he just watching and has no influence on what occurs?
 
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Skybringr

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Nope, are you going to share what you think you see?

Not being able to have a proper discussion; spamming what you think are fallacies even though you are laughably tripping over them yourself. Being shallow with anything you don't agree with. Etc. etc.

H, I thought you said we weren't worth your time. :wave:
I'm just revealing your antagonistic, atheist grandstanding for what it is.

What is "not proper debate"? Rebutting your bald, ad hoc assertions? You seem to have a unique definition of what "debate" is, could you kindly share that with us?
Any debate. Even among those such as Dawkins who I'm sure you have a secret shrine of in your basement, people aren't abusing the concept of 'fallacies'. It's extremely anti-intellectual for you to be sitting here with that drivel. You've used the word 'fallacy' more times then I've ever seen anyone in my life. It's time to move to the grown ups table.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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It's hard to forget about the part God played in that garden.

I agree. God played a part. He created man in His own Image and likeness.

God is omniscient, so he knew what Adam would do and the consequences of Adam's sin before creating him, the Garden, the Tree. You can't surprise an omniscient being.

All of this is true. I agree.

Why would God put Adam in a situation where he would sin?

To give Adam the chance to be a human being and to exercise his unique ability to choose to obey and love God or to disobey Him.

God did not cause Adam to sin. God knowing beforehand that (x) will occur does not mean that God causes (x) to happen anymore than you knowing beforehand that offering someone one million dollars in cold hard cash causes the person to accept it when you do offer it. The person chooses to accept it. You knowing beforehand that they will accept it does not cause them to accept it.

It is silly to say that knowing (x) will happen causes (x) to happen.



Maybe God had no choice. But God is also omnipotent. If omniscient beings can't be surprised, omnipotent beings can't be forced by circumstance.

God chose to create beings with the ability to choose to obey Him or disobey Him. There are many things God cannot do. Omnipotence =/= ability to do anything.

So God placed Adam at a place where he would sin, then proceeded to punish not only him, but all of his descendents.

God placed Adam in a situation where it was possible for him to obey God and live in paradise, or disobey God and die. Sins have consequences. Evil acts have consequences. Surely you agree?


Millions upon millions of people suffered and died, though they never ate that apple. So today, when children die, you blame Adam. Why not blame God?

If Adam had not sinned, there would be no death. It is just that simple.

"How did the Fall affect humanity?"

Answer: “Just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so sin spread through all men” (Romans 5:12). The effects of the Fall are numerous and far reaching. Sin has affected every aspect of our being. It has affected our lives on earth and our eternal destiny.

One of the immediate effects of the Fall was that mankind was separated from God. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken. They became aware of their sin and were ashamed before Him. They hid from Him (Genesis 3:8-10), and man has been hiding from God ever since. Only through Christ can that fellowship be restored, because in Him we are made as righteous and sinless in God’s eyes as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Because of the Fall, death became a reality, and all creation was subject to it. All men die, all animals die, all plant life dies. The “whole creation groans” (Romans 8:22), waiting for the time when Christ will return to liberate it from the effects of death. Because of sin, death is an inescapable reality, and no one is immune. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Worse still, we not only die, but if we die without Christ, we experience eternal death.

Another effect of the Fall is that humans have lost sight of the purpose for which they were created. Man’s chief end and highest purpose in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 1 Corinthians 10:31; Psalm 86:9). Hence, love to God is the core of all morality and goodness. The opposite is the choice of self as supreme. Selfishness is the essence of the Fall, and what follows are all other crimes against God. In all ways sin is a turning in upon oneself, which is confirmed in how we live our lives. We call attention to ourselves and to our good qualities and accomplishments. We minimize our shortcomings. We seek special favors and opportunities in life, wanting an extra edge that no one else has. We display vigilance to our own wants and needs, while we ignore those of others. In short, we place ourselves upon the throne of our lives, usurping God’s role.

When Adam chose to rebel against his Creator, he lost his innocence, incurred the penalty of physical and spiritual death, and his mind was darkened by sin, as are the minds of his successors. The apostle Paul said of pagans, “Since they do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, He gave them over to a depraved mind” (Romans 1:28). He told the Corinthians that “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). Jesus said, “I have come into the world as a light so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness” (John 12:46). Paul reminded the Ephesians, “You were once in darkness but now you are in the light of the Lord” (Ephesians 5:8). The purpose of salvation is “to open the eyes [of unbelievers] and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God” (Acts 26:18).

The Fall produced in humans a state of depravity. Paul spoke of those “whose consciences are seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and those whose minds are spiritually darkened as a result of rejecting the truth (Romans 1:21). In this state, man is utterly incapable of doing or choosing that which is acceptable to God, apart from divine grace. “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so” (Romans 8:7).

Without the supernatural regeneration by the Holy Spirit, all men would remain in their fallen state. But in His grace, mercy and loving-kindness, God sent His Son to die on the cross and take the penalty of our sin, reconciling us to God and making eternal life with Him possible. What was lost at the Fall is reclaimed at the Cross.

Recommended Resources: Hard Questions, Real Answers by William Lane Craig and Logos Bible Software.

While he is not the author of every article on GotQuestions.org, for citation purposes, you may reference our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann.


Read more: How did the Fall affect humanity?

If you want your God omniscient and omnipotent, erase omnibenevolent. If you need omnibenevolence, erase either omnipotence or omniscience.

God is all of the above. It is your erroneous conceptualizations of the terms that needs erasing.

PS: you wouldn't have this problem with Thor.

I do not have the problem with God.

PPS: About your earlier post that God doesn't cure cancer victims because they don't believe enough: Great! let's blame the dying child and her parents, along with Adam and various posters for his plight. Anyone but god.

That is not what I said.

I said one of the reasons why God does not heal people is because of unbelief. ONE OF THE REASONS, not THE REASON.

There are certain things that are pretty self-evident. Atheists do not generally ask God to cure them of cancer because they do not believe in God in the first place. Now it is possible that God could heal a person who does not believe in Him but that would be His prerogative.

It is not unreasonable to say that one reason why God does not heal people is unbelief. Scripture even bears this out. It is recorded that Jesus could not do many miracles in certain places because of their unbelief.
 
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andy b

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Ok, so back to my original question.

Does the God you believe in have any influence (or does he influence) what happens in this world, or is he just watching and has no influence on what occurs?

If im honest i dont have a clue what my god does i just fancied sounding philosophical and reading the replies
 
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