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The Problem of Evil

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by dhh712, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    Yes it says no Sherlocks ALLOWED
     
  2. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    I aint trolling this is my nice side....but you already know that sherlock
     
  3. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    because im thick god wired me this way
     
  4. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but that sounds more to me like "Life isn't fair! It's all God's fault! He's a big meanie for not making me a god!"

    *Sayeth Satan, if you've ever picked up a Bible


    God came down and sacrificed Himself rather then just waving a wand and making everything good and well.

    Do you know why?
    Because in order for God to be God, He must be perfect. There must be exaction. Otherwise, the entire premise of His being fails, and He would in fact not be God.

    Are you even aware of what the Tree of Knowledge was? It gave Adam and Eve the ability to know good and evil. They taught their sons and daughters good and evil, and today, you know good and evil as well as everyone else.
    Mankind is incapable of doing anything with this knowledge other then to cause perdition. Wherever man does something good, something comes along and destroys it.

    This is why you don't live in a perfect world, and blame God for it.

    Well that's only because the way sex between men is done makes it extremely easy to infect each other. Also, without fear of pregnancy, condoms are more often neglected.

    And lesbians are their own disservice. They have robbed themselves by leaning on another woman rather then a man. There's no good in it, and I'm certain even most women feel the same.

    A better question would be to ask why HIV exists at all. Why would God cure it over just never having it exist in the first place?

    But you don't want to go to the root of it, you just want to point your finger at God and say He's bad for not making you a god as well.
     
  5. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    You are a walking talking straw man going down the Yellow Brick Road. All through this thread you have resorted to nothing but a cheap reach arounds to misrepresent what one states.

    I've have not seen a single thing from you that isn't quite frankly childish and pointless.

    What is cruel, being a robot or having choice?

    That just shows how ridiculous you are.

    I'm sure it doesn't avail you. What even does? Unless something says 'God is evil' it is like Greek to you.

    Whatever you say, just know that I know :thumbsup:

    No I didn't, there you go with your STRAW MAN FALLACY :D

    I said that people reap what they sow. You touch a flame, don't blame God when you get burned.

    That's the fifth time you have stated that even though I already responded to it.
    Grow up.
     
  6. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but looking at each and every one of your posts shows the claim to be true.

    And where is this profanity and vulgarity?
    The only thing I'm guilty of is feeding a troll.

    You are just making yourself look foolish with all that. One can gather a fallacy from absolutely anything if one wants to be overly technical. You are not convincing anybody with any of that.

    You know what's also third grade? Pointing out small grammatical errors just to insult people's intelligence.

    I don't see you doing anything about it besides living snugly in your 1st world country using condoms, STILL killing fetuses and getting stds, eating unhealthy food and complaining about how your healthcare doesn't cover mortality.

    Anything you don't agree with is 'disinformation' to you. Why don't you take some accountability for once_

    Don't mistake my weakness for feeding trolls as you being someone worth a proper discussion. you probably aren't going to make it passed the three digit post line before you are banned.

    I'm so glad you just said what you just said. It vindicates me on so many levels. You have no idea what the Bible teaches, don't even pretend as if you do.

    And how old are you anyway? Please dear God do not say over 20.
     
  7. niye

    niye Guest

    +0

    I agree that God's omniscience does not necessary undo our free will--Boethius.

    Everything after that is a summary of Christian mythology, which is fine.

    Does that mythology make sense given a god who is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent? I don't believe it does. I'm not going to repeat myself as that's boring.

    I'm going off on a tangent (with apologies) on one of your statements, though. You say that "it is not unreasonable to say that one reason why God does not heal people is unbelief." That sounds pretty nasty today--see responses to that statement as explanation. What interests me is that it wouldn't have sounded as nasty only a few centuries ago.

    God was always the ruler of the universe, and not so long ago, people had different expectations of their rulers than we do today. Until the early 18th century, a beloved, merciful ruler could torture, then disembowel traitors. A just ruler could show extra mercy to a subject who was extra prolific with praise. A good ruler could chop off the limb of a subject who criticized him. A good ruler could punish an entire family for the rebellion of one of its members. Queen Elizabeth I, who was considered a wise and merciful ruler in her time, and is still considered an excellent ruler, did all of the above and more.

    People who expected good rulers to behave like that would easily accept a God who cured only (or mostly) those who believed in him. A God who tortured rebels in hell would make complete sense. A God who extended Adam's curse to all of his progeny, again, would make complete sense.

    Those days are gone, and our definition of a good ruler has changed. Today, any leader who behaved like Elizabeth I would be considered a monster.

    The way God is depicted hasn't changed, though. He still acts like a ruler only someone who lived in the past would find just and merciful. By today's standards, God as a ruler is what Elizabeth would be: A monster.

    That in turn creates a radical divide between what is acceptable for God, and what is acceptable for present-day leaders. imo that adds a dimension to the problem of evil that an normal Elizabethan (maybe) wouldn't have experienced.
     
  8. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    How original.

    Going around arguments with cheap antics to keep up your facade.

    Get your mind out of the gutter.

    Are we on to dishonesty now? You are the troll of this entire thread, notice that I'm the only one who wasn't smart enough to leave it.

    You don't even know what my rationale is. You have snarled at every little thing I've stated before even going into such things because you are nothing more then a troublemaker. You serve no other purpose on here.

    That's the third time I've seen you say that. Have you ever thought that by other people's perspectives, you may be the 'yahoo'?

    I'm sure making such observations make you feel superior.

    Blah blah blah. You've attempted to call out over a hundred so called fallacies on this thread.
    That is extremely juvenile.

    You don't give anybody the chance to. They end up having to not try to tear your head off rather then have a sober discussion with you. You are a troublemaker who just aims to aggravate people.

    Yes you are. I have not broken any rules and quite frankly I'm tired of this stupid, recurring thing where a rank TROLL comes on here and tries to act like they aren't the one's who ARE THE PROBLEM and trying to talk about rules.

    Grow up, and welcome to my ignore list. I'm done with you.
     
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    God is holy and there is no unrighteousness in him, the reason there is evil and bad things happen is because we have free will...

    Free will to chose, but most of us use this free will to chose sin, an instrument (tool) of the devil (Satan) and when we choose sin, then the devil (Satan) goes before God, the Father, and in the presence of all the angels, "demands" that we be handed over into his hands... And because he does this in the presence of all the angels, God, the Father is almost forced to concede...

    But, the good news is that there is power in Jesus Christ, we can plea in his name and claim that we belong to him, and he (Jesus) upon calling upon him, Jesus will make supplication for us (come to our defense) and try to make (plea) the legal case that we do belong to him, and should therefore be passed over, or spared, or "saved" from being handed over into the devils hand and power and grasp, before the angels, but we have to call upon him (Jesus) and claim that we belong to him, and not the devil (Satan)

    Jesus told Peter that the devil (Satan) was asking for him to be sifted out as wheat (tested, tempted, tried and persecuted) by him, the devil (Satan) But Jesus said that he/I have made "supplication" for you (Peter)...

    Now, Some people will suffer and die regardless, in this world, this realm, because that is where the devil (Satan) operates, but he is/has been ousted from the next world, and has no power or authority there. God's point-of-view on death and dying in this world is also very different from ours: He (God) sees it as returning to him in heaven, so his perspective (on the first death in this world) is a bit different from ours you see...

    Not that he doesn't care, but when a righteous person suffers and dies for their righteousness (or his, Jesus's) in this world, then they go to be with God, the Father in heaven, you see...

    Hope that helps, God Bless!
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    You call God an "it"? How interesting...

    God created a being who would tempt us to do bad, who would be the king of sin, and sins master, so that all who were proved; before/in the presence of, the angels looking on, to be sinners, would be demanded to hand them over to the authority of sins master, a.k.a Satan, the devil and all the angels he got to follow him...

    Then he also created a being who would make a legal case for/in our defense (of us sinners), instead of against us... and that is Jesus Christ...

    But, God created a being who would be allowed to tempt, not force us, to do bad, so that we would have a choice, and free will, without the potential (choice) to do bad, there is no free will...

    And it is the dieties "mistake" for giving us free will, you say...? I don't think so, you are gravely mistaken...

    God saw that we would, in our youth and ignorance, he saw that some (most, initially, at first anyway) would choose to do bad, in our age or ignorance... but he also looked ahead and saw that we would (eventually) grow up/out of that age of ignorance, and learn to reject the bad, and reject the tool of the enemy (sin, and Satan, the Devil) and choose, (of our free will) good, and reject the bad... (which is what God intended to create in the first place; beings who would have the freedom (free will) to choose bad, but would not, but would willingly choose and serve good)... eventually anyway... needless to say, we are still "growing up"

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Old Soul Supporter

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    Satan is responsible for sin, death, plagues, diseases, suffering, misery, and the like (see Job 1 & 2)...

    Now if you wanna blame God for allowing the enemy (Satan) to exist and for allowing him to do the things that he does, then fine... But Satan is ultimately responsible...

    Responsible, not for tempting God so much (although he does do that), but for proposing the line of reasoning before God, the Father, in the presence of all his other created beings (the angels) and for trying to sway them (to go "against" humankind) For trying to sway all the others (angels) minds into deeming humankind wicked and unworthy and deserving of nothing but suffering, anguish, torment, and death...

    Jesus Christ on the other hand, will not deny that we are sinners, but/and yet, will make the legal case for us in our defense, before the angels, and not be against us but is for us...

    God Bless!
     
  12. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    @Neogaia777

    He has no interest in anything you are saying. We have a bonafide troll in progress. Just look at his post history.
    I've already sent the report, forget that dude.
     
  13. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    Says Mr mockingbird the plastic Buddhist :D:D hey sherlock me and you have something in common i dont know much about Christianity and you know nothing about buddism lol
     
  14. Hammster

    Hammster Theology Matters Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADMIN HAT ON



    Okay folks, the sniping needs to stop. If you must resort to subtle insults (and some not-so-subtle ones) to make your arguments, then perhaps it's not as strong as you think it is. Nevertheless, if you can't right the ship, this thread will be closed.


    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  15. Mediate

    Mediate Only Borrowed

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    In reality, suffering happens.

    Should God, and would God, are irrelevant questions. Should we, and would we, are relevant ones.

    Should we rape children?

    Should we perpetuate pointless arguments on the merits of omnipotent Gods existent outside time and space and simultanesously within it which we don't believe in having more motive for creating a non-suffering Earth than the suffering one that exists, as if we might be able to understand the motives of whomever that God is we don't believe in?

    Or should we accept the suffering Earth and the desire of all people to be free of suffering?

    For the christian this is seen in Jesus' quotes 'love your enemies' and 'consider others as yourself'.

    For the atheists, in the realization that suffering (rape, murder, death, torture, whatever it may be) is an awful, undeniably violating thing that is best off alleviated and avoided.

    We're all after the same purpose here, the same things; to be happy and to be free of suffering. One person here chooses the path of the God they believe in, whose Son taught people empathy and consideration for others.

    Another person believes in the inherent value of another's happiness and right not to suffer.

    It is important for us as a species to draw these similarities and commonalities and even if we don't agree with one another on the dogma or the back-story, work towards what we all realize is inherently our biggest innate desire - to be free of suffering at no expense to another's freedom from suffering.

    If anybody is to speculate further, it may well be a good idea to accept that suffering happens and use the reality of the Earth as some basis for speculating on the existence of God, rather than say 'no God exists because if he did we wouldn't suffer'. That is as much a massive jump in logic as anything else, although it does underpin perhaps a belief in 'something out there' that isn't the christian God, even if that 'something' is just an ideal of ultimate morality. That may be intrinsic, and perhaps instead of using it against the teaching of a morally enlightened character like Jesus who went round healing and giving, you should follow its call and become what you really believe.
     
  16. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    The reason the question "Should God have created a universe without suffering?" is important is because it deals with what you can say about the Christian god.

    Quite simply, if the definition of the Christian god requires "all-powerful" and "all-loving" as components, and we acknowledge that the universe as it is does not match what an all-powerful and all-loving god would create, then the Christian god as defined cannot exist.

    You're left with a few choices. You can argue that the universe is as an all-powerful and all-loving god would create, but so far I'm not seeing any coherent explanations for why suffering exists. In another thread I've shown that a universe where we could but don't cause suffering to each other doesn't violate free will, so that retort by apologists doesn't work. And nothing seems to account for natural suffering without resorting to hand waving or making excuses for a god that quickly become ridiculous.

    The more practical solution would be adjusting the definition of a god to eliminate either "all-powerful" or "all-loving". Charles Hartshorne, a prominent religious philosopher called omnipotence a 'mistake' when discussing the attributes of a god.

    I think if more theists actually thought about things instead of just throwing out "omni" terms like they've been programmed to do, they'd come to the same conclusions Hartshorne did...
     
  17. Chany

    Chany Uncertain Absurdist

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    The problem with doing this, of course, is that their god becomes more and more of a powerful type of person, i.e. a god like Zeus or Thor. It's no longer the Alpha and Omega, but a super hero.

    There's also the problems that comes along with the levels in between omni and nothingness. If the being is still loving towards all of humanity and still possesses the power and knowledge to eliminate suffering, than the problem of evil still applies, depending upon the specifics. Likewise, it does not make sense for a being to arbitrarily like some of its human creations more than others.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
  18. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Then you need to clear your ears out.

    Is it moral to not cure someone of cancer, when it costs you nothing, simply because they won't worship you?

    The answer, in case you were wondering, is no.

    Sacrificed what? What did God lose?

    So you are saying that it is moral to punish grandchildren for what their grandparents did?

    I already got to the root of it. According to christians, God is punishing granchildren for what their grandparents did. That is immoral.
     
  19. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    Having knowledge of good and evil is only fixable by one accepting that they are now a man of perdition and must deal with it.

    If God had let them remain in paradise, they would have eventually become like Satan anyway.

    You seriously just aren't deep enough of a person, or will refuse to go into such depth, to understand the true meaning and logic of that.

    All I see going on in this thread is basically others complaining that life isn't fair, so God is evil *poor me* *tyrannical tyrant from Tyrantville who holds me accountable*. It's not like I have much faith discussing anything deep with your lot.
     
  20. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

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    Or god could have just not put the completely pointless tree of knowledge there to begin with. Also, never suggested in the bible that after eating that fruit people would actually become evil, only that they would have knowledge of both good and evil. Therefore, they could actually use that knowledge to make choices based in morality.
     
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