Why does Paganism scare Christians?

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Jane_the_Bane

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The idea that Rome crumbled because of homosexuality or sexual licentiousness is actually perfectly spurious.
You could even build a better (if almost equally incorrect) case for CHRISTIANITY as the reason for Rome's fall, since that religion was a relatively new factor at the time, whereas Rome had been a heaving fleshpot of carnality even before its heyday, and certainly did not serve as a model of prudishness when it reached the peak of its power.

All in all, though, I'd say that neither sexuality nor religion had much to do with the collapse of the Western Empire, and that several other complex factors were involved here: growing too big, outsourcing too much of the military, etc.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well of course issues like homosexuality are not limited to Christianity but my political context is the United States which has only a small minority of Muslims. That said, the way Muslims in other countries treat minorities including homosexuals is appalling.

I've never heard of Sustainable Traditions until you linked it here, it's kind of refreshing to read about something like that. Also apparently is Christian Libertarianism is a thing, that's also pretty exciting though that sounds like a .01% kind of minority.
Political context is understood - I was speaking in regards to the U.S as well. Muslims really aren't a minority within the U.S since they have substantial power and influence in many places when it comes to democratic influence - seeing that there're already Muslims involved in politics within American culture as well as grassroots organizations and they work with Non-Muslims often (more here, here, here, here , here, here ,here and here/ here), it's bananas to see the ways others react to Muslims/assuming they're all out to conquer you and take over. I truly do feel sorry for the many Muslims who feel very isolated within the U.S and living in fear, but I am glad for others working on their behalf (just as with other groups) to ensure that they're well connected.

And on the ways that Muslims treat homosexuals in some countries or others not agreeing, it can be appalling. Of course, many times Muslims have been stereotyped as treating homosexuals in horrible ways even though they do the same as others - disagreeing strongly but not forcing others outside of their communities to not walk in it.

On Sustainable Traditions and Christian Libertarianism, I am glad those kinds of organizations exist and are doing a lot - just as it is with other things similar. It's not a minority, of course, in what they do - it just so happens to be the case that you rarely hear about it in many circles because they don't have the platform that all others may have.
I think this the idea of homosexuality bringing down Rome is a popular political trope in the United States as well. If the United States is anything like Rome, its probably going to collapse for loads of other reasons before homosexuality. I'm not homosexual myself but I tend towards libertarianism, 'do what you will' and what not.
I do think that the idea of homosexuality being the reason for Rome coming down is inconsistent - it may have been a factor but it wasn't the ONLY factor in why Rome went through a lot of problems......just as it Is the case with the U.S

My mindset is that some things may be wrong - but that doesn't mean they are the sole reason as to why things may or may not break down ...nor does it mean that I don't find value in any of the things done by others who are for homosexuality (more on that shared here in http://www.christianforums.com/t7760985-6/#post63727530 and http://www.christianforums.com/t7760985-8/#post63777079 and http://www.christianforums.com/t7733775-6/#post62733514 and http://www.christianforums.com/t7707102-3/#post61929332). Some things can be allowable and people learn to live alongside with.

Prostitution was legal and widespread within the Byzantine Empire except for a period of a couple of years when an ambitious Emperor/Empress would close the brothels and force the prostitutes into convents. Of course the Church spoke out heavily against fornication and prostitution, but it all remained legal.

And What the Empress sought to do was very noteworthy to consider when it comes to the times we live in and wondering how to go about things.

The Roman Empire was plagued from within by excessive lust for violence/perversion and sexual immorality (be it of the heterosexual kind or homosexual kind) - and yet later on, it slide into gross immorality and yet those faithful evolved into the Byzantine Empire - with other men leading the way in aggressive campaign against sexual immorality like Theodosius I and Justinian ..or Empress Flaccilla , Empress Theodora and many others. I say that in light of how often people compare the U.S.A to the Roman Empire and say it'll be destroyed and is unable to reform based on Rome's history - and yet the other side of history with the empire is left out.

Granted, with the Byzantine Empire, it was just that...an empire, with an emperor. And a morality based on Christ....and that's something which should be considered when seeing how the U.S is based on a Democratic model - a model that is really a Plutocratic model with Democratic Republic ideas similar to what Rome had. And as long as people are not educated properly and aware of the ramifications of actions, the government will represent the state of life that the people lean toward.

The Byzantine Empire at least had something close to an ethos of godliness that the Roman Empire never had. Granted, the East Romans were far from flawless - but they seemed far more successful than Rome ever was....and perhaps the U.S can experience the same if allowing for some serious consideration. Some serious struggles may also need to occur in order to get us to that point. But we can get there I think - and although we'll never be a place without flaws or any level of sexual immorality, it may be possible to at least bring the nation to a point of containment/quarantine where things do not progress. Understanding choice differently than how it's interpreted in today's context with democracy may be a starting point - for so many think that choice/free will means having just basis to do whatever one wishes....rather than seeing what one chooses to do as being either wise/productive or detrimental to others. And so long as the focus stays on respecting the right to choose rather than setting limits for how far choices can go, things will go as they go...

I've heard of Tertullian but never read him. I know pretty little about the Early Church Fathers. I'd like to read them sometime but I don't really have the time given my large backlog of reading material. If I could find a decent summary of what various ECFs wrote about and their positions, that would be grand, then I could investigate further in depth.

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded part simply on principle. A quick pursuing of Christian Forums as well as other Christian message boards online seems to indicate a lot of subtle distrust maybe bordering on hatred. We could probably spend some time arguing about what "disagreeing with a lifestyle" constitutes. While I think most Christians say 'well I don't like that but you can do what you want', I do think that certain groups are automatically looked down upon on principle because it seems certain things are more offensive than other things.


Young people are even worse about this generally, once you find you don't agree with someone on a big issue like homosexuality, you tend not to hang out with that person again. At least, that's basically what Youth Group was always like for me.
Everyone disagrees with something to one extent or another - and of course, people learn to either get along to get along or other things go down. Be it with Muslims or Christians or Atheists and any other group....

And even people who are involved in same-sex relationships do the same - as it concerns people who look down on others for not thinking you have to be involved in same-sex relationships or that you have to see them as things you were born with....and this has occurred with others who were formerly involved in same-sex relationships and yet walked away from it, noting how they weren't forced to do so and not seeing it as something they had to do/couldn't escape from (in the same way one cannot escape being born Black). They get a lot of flack from others simply for disagreeing...(as said elsewhere in http://www.christianforums.com/t7760985-2/#post63637680 ).

And that's not even a matter of "Well, you became a Christian - now you disagree with homosexuality" - for even atheists or other non-theistic groups have noted how they don't agree with same-sex relationships as being natural/a part of biological development that was supposed to happen and they note where they used to be involved in those types of relationships but changed ....and they get flack.

And when it seems to get to the point where you're punished for disagreeing on the matter, that's where you get into trouble. But again, this isn't new...


Christians are at a marked disadvantage here because the political shenanigans of the Republicans augment the perception that Christians hate everyone that isn't them. There's a lot of damage control to be done, young Christians are also good at this and in my opinion represent a great willingness to engage with people "of the world" (a generally derogatory term) in order to build bridges and make things better for everyone (#69 )
Unfortunately, for Christians who have had to do a lot of addressing where others were always blasting people disagreeing with them, it has led to a lot of angst that isn't necessary. But as long as there's actual discussion going on, things can continue on......
 
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theophilus777

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But Christianity (and Islam, among others) do not tend to embrace such an approach: there is ONE truth, it is theirs, and everybody else worships dead idols (at best) or demons (at worst).

Wow, I don't know what you do know, but clearly you don't know my Scripture:

"Paul stood in the middle of the court and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious. As I was going through your city and looking closely at the objects you worship, I noticed an altar with this written on it: ‘To an unknown god.’ I’m telling you about the unknown god you worship." (Acts 17:22)

Since this was like, THE most influential Christian preacher ever, and here he says essentially the exact opposite of what you do, I'm going with you mis-spoke.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Wow, I don't know what you do know, but clearly you don't know my Scripture:

"Paul stood in the middle of the court and said, “Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious. As I was going through your city and looking closely at the objects you worship, I noticed an altar with this written on it: ‘To an unknown god.’ I’m telling you about the unknown god you worship." (Acts 17:22)

Since this was like, THE most influential Christian preacher ever, and here he says essentially the exact opposite of what you do, I'm going with you mis-spoke.

Paul's manoevre here can hardly count as an endorsement or support of Greco-Roman polytheism, now can it? It was a rather trite ploy to begin with.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Attributed to ... Bjorn Borg, I think?

This would be rather funny, if Christianity hadn't played such an instrumental role in European colonialism and the systematic destruction of indigenous cultures around the globe. (And is still playing a crucial and terrible role in several unappetizing trends you'll find in Africa, such as Nigerian witch hunters or the Ugandan anti-homosexuality act.)
 
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theophilus777

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I feel like I have an even hand when it comes to Christianity. The teachings are usually solid, but there is a terribly long history of Christians oppressing or even killing outside groups. The problem is that it occurred in just about every place Christians had a majority so do we blame Christianity or people? That's hard. When you see things like the Pope literally confine people to a ghetto at night and limit what they are able to do for a living, it's kind of hard to go "oh, it's just a few misguided souls".

It's pretty hard for me to know how to process this upon reading it. I am drawn to consider how this applies within the US since the revolutionary war, and also to point out I might normally be inclined to classify any given pope as a misguided soul, but at the same time I can't help but to love the current pope, and to recognize he indeed needs and deserves support, via at least prayer. These are some widely divergent thoughts that I can't find a way to connect to the central thrust of the thread, but both those directions could spark conversations of their own which might prove to be very interesting.
 
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theophilus777

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There were good times and bad times. When they were bad, though, they were really, really bad. I have studied the history both good and bad. But it's like it goes between tolerated and beat into a bloody pulp.

If its any consolation to you, I have found that some aspects of church history I attempted to digest made me physically ill. I also consider you a Brother, due to your Judaism.

Further, I don't find Christianity teaching "tolerance" at all. Instead, it teaches love; and the distinction between the 2 is profound.
 
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theophilus777

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Paul's manoevre here can hardly count as an endorsement or support of Greco-Roman polytheism, now can it? It was a rather trite ploy to begin with.

Ok, so you'd rather miss the point so you can maintain your view. I can accept that, but it seems entirely too much like Calvin for my tastes. Luther's stance on the Jews applies equally, or maybe even better.
 
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theophilus777

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This would be rather funny, if Christianity hadn't played such an instrumental role in European colonialism and the systematic destruction of indigenous cultures around the globe. (And is still playing a crucial and terrible role in several unappetizing trends you'll find in Africa, such as Nigerian witch hunters or the Ugandan anti-homosexuality act.)

Here I can agree with you.
 
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dlamberth

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Further, I don't find Christianity teaching "tolerance" at all. Instead, it teaches love; and the distinction between the 2 is profound.
My editorial: Jesus taught Love. A child of Love IS tolerance. Christianity on the other hand teaches a type of One True Wayism to Salvation. And it's a type One True Wayism that is anything but tolerance. So I see Jesus and Christianity as two completely different things that only occasionally cross paths. One teaches Love, the other teaches One True Wayism.

.
 
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smaneck

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If its any consolation to you, I have found that some aspects of church history I attempted to digest made me physically ill. I also consider you a Brother, due to your Judaism.

When I told my parents I wanted to become a Baha'i as a teenager they whisked me off to our pastor who insisted I should know more about the history of my own religion first. I said, "Fine, give me some books to read." He led me to his library and told me to pick some out. Among others, I picked out Will Durant Caesar and Christ. I don't know what he was thinking of, because had a I read those books before finding out about Baha'u'llah I would assuredly become an atheist.
 
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theophilus777

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My editorial: Jesus taught Love. A child of Love IS tolerance. Christianity on the other hand teaches a type of One True Wayism to Salvation. And it's a type One True Wayism that is anything but tolerance. So I see Jesus and Christianity as two completely different things that only occasionally cross paths. One teaches Love, the other teaches One True Wayism.

.

News flash: Jesus taught one true way. I suspect you have a point in there somewhere, and I suspect I would agree with it if it was stated.

My point is love goes a lot further than tolerance.
 
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theophilus777

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When I told my parents I wanted to become a Baha'i as a teenager they whisked me off to our pastor who insisted I should know more about the history of my own religion first. I said, "Fine, give me some books to read." He led me to his library and told me to pick some out. Among others, I picked out Will Durant Caesar and Christ. I don't know what he was thinking of, because had a I read those books before finding out about Baha'u'llah I would assuredly become an atheist.

This makes me pretty sure this Pastor never read the books on his shelf. I do wonder how frequent this is. Classic pretense.

Wouldn't a good leader direct you to read something tailored to your needs at the time?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Some christians seem more afraid of atheists than they are of pagans these days.
Some people will always be afraid of everything....
 
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dlamberth

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katautumn

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A common impression I get from many Christians concerning Paganism is that us pagans are a sex cult

No, but being formerly Neo-Pagan, myself, I know that many sects are fertility-based and many of the rites and rituals involve symbolism of penises and vaginas and the womb. I also know, from experience, that the Great Rite can involve sexual intercourse either actually or symbolically, and that some traditional covens still use the former in their ritual for initiation.

that loves to murder babies.

Nah! That's just Hollywood stuff.

Overall it is fear and confusion as it seems that so many Christians cannot handle the fact that Pagans exist and do not engage in Satanic activities, primarily because Pagans do not believe in Satan.

Here again, I know from experience that the greatest deception of Satan is when you believe you aren't worshiping in his honor, just because you don't believe in him.

What are the perceptions you have on the Neo-Paganism movement?

Only the ones I made after coming out of it after a decade of being a practitioner, and dabbler, in everything from Asatru to Green Witchcraft and from Wicca to LaVeyan Satanism.

dlamberth said:
My editorial: Jesus taught Love. A child of Love IS tolerance. Christianity on the other hand teaches a type of One True Wayism to Salvation. And it's a type One True Wayism that is anything but tolerance. So I see Jesus and Christianity as two completely different things that only occasionally cross paths. One teaches Love, the other teaches One True Wayism.

The two cannot possibly be separated. You are trying to define the word "love" in your own image. Love is not always tolerance, and vice versa. You clearly have a perception of Jesus Christ. Unless you walked the earth with Him, the only way you could have come up with this perception is through reading the Scriptures. If that is so, I would invite you to read the following passages and see what you take away from them:

Matthew 7:22-23 said:
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 14:6 said:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 7:13 said:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

It would seem to me that Jesus said that He is the ONLY WAY. Not there there are many ways, or that the way is love. Also, it would seem that the narrow path is not paved with tolerance for sin.
 
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