2 Thessalonians 2:4 Geography Question

[daq]

Can someone of the "future literal physical temple building" belief system please explain how the congregation of Thessalonica was supposed to understand Paul supposedly speaking of a "literal physical temple building made with hands" in the famous Thessalonians passage which so many say concerns a literal physical one-time "man of sin" walking into "the temple of God" showing himself that he is God?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

How can it be that the Thessalonians were supposed to understand this to mean the literal physical temple building which was yet standing in Jerusalem when their Macedonian congregation was well over a thousand miles away by land and two or three months away with good weather by sea? One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely. How can the Thessalonians have thought that Paul meant the literal temple building standing in Jerusalem when they were well over a thousand miles away and would not likely have heard about such an event for at least four to six months if ever? The popular teaching of the modern prophecy shepherds pretty much nullifies any meaning whatsoever to the congregation of the Thessalonians who first received this epistle! Help!

.

 

[keras]

When Paul was preaching, there was still a Temple. It wasn't destroyed until 70 CE.
However, there are many prophesies that tell us there will again be a Temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 40and 41 give the details of it and Ezekiel 43:4 says the glory of the Lord will return to it. Micah 4:1, Haggai 2:6-8, Zech 8:9, Malachi 3:1

 

[daq]

When Paul was preaching, there was still a Temple. It wasn't destroyed until 70 CE.
However, there are many prophesies that tell us there will again be a Temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 40and 41 give the details of it and Ezekiel 43:4 says the glory of the Lord will return to it. Micah 4:1, Haggai 2:6-8, Zech 8:9, Malachi 3:1

We have already discussed that elsewhere in not a few places and not a soul was able to give an answer for the question put forth as well as the other comments in the following thread quoted from yet another thread concerning Zechariah 14 and the "feet" of YHWH standing upon mount Olivet. I will include a small linked portion of the opening comments to the following post so that if any has changed his or her mind the same may go and see where no one of your particular paradigm was willing or capable of answering:

Here is another Tanak passage concerning "feet" just for you Old Timer:

Ezekiel 43:4-7 KJV
4. And the glory of the Lord [YHWH] came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
5. So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the Lord [YHWH] filled the house.
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If he says that this Ezekiel Temple is the place of the souls of his feet FOREVER then how say you and those of your disposition that this is a temporary one-thousand year physical millennial Temple building made of wood, stone, iron, brass, silver, and gold? In addition we are now almost two thousand years from the Advent of Messiah. This Ezekiel Temple is the Body of Yeshua, and therefore completely supernal, and this is indeed why they did not build it to begin with when they began to build the second Temple even though they already had the writings of Ezekiel, (in fact the Scroll of Ezekiel HaNavi almost did not make it into the "canon" because of what we now consider chapters 40-48 and the "Ezekiel Temple"). Can it be that the Father would bring about such a wonderful thing as the Body of Messiah, which will last for all eternity, and not first tell it to his servants the prophets?

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Hebrews 10:5-7 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared [GSN#2675 katartizo] me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me), to do thy will, O God.

Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body-temple hast thou fitted-framed me."

 

[daq]

When Paul was preaching, there was still a Temple. It wasn't destroyed until 70 CE.
However, there are many prophesies that tell us there will again be a Temple in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 40and 41 give the details of it and Ezekiel 43:4 says the glory of the Lord will return to it. Micah 4:1, Haggai 2:6-8, Zech 8:9, Malachi 3:1

Also that was the point: How were the Thessalonians supposed to keep an eye on the physical temple building located in Jerusalem when they were some 1400 miles away? Also while you ponder that the following is the rest of what no one else here of the physical mindset seems to be capable of answering concerning the "feet" of YHWH and Zechariah 14. My comments below were not originally directed at you but are simply quoted from another thread. However the Scripture clearly states that the clouds are the dust of the "feet" of the Father so how can this statement be neglected if one truly seeks to understand what is written in the prophets?

That passage clearly speaks of the "feet" of the Father YHWH who is non-corporeal Spirit:

Zechariah 14:3-4 KJV
3. Then shall the Lord [YHWH] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

In addition you, like most, have neglected what in fact the same OT authors have already stated concerning the feet of YHWH in their own metaphorical prophetic utterances and writings:

Nahum 1:1-3 KJV
1. The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2. God is jealous, and the Lord [YHWH] revengeth; the Lord [YHWH] revengeth, and is furious; the Lord [YHWH] will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
3. The Lord [YHWH] is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord [YHWH] hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

THE CLOUDS ARE THE DUST OF THE "FEET" OF YHWH:

Matthew 17:4-5 KJV
4. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Luke 9:27-35 KJV
27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

And if one is so bold as to ignore this information we have the same testimony from Peter concerning this event which flies in the face of those who disbelieve the record having been written in the Gospel accounts:

2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV
16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Isn't this the same passage the physical-material literalists quote to prove their theories?

And please try not to tell me Olivet Moraih was not split because it was.
In fact the great city was divided into third parts in the multiple earthquakes which occurred.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

This is a principle invented out of thin air, without an atom of scripture to back it up.

But this concept does not only have no scriptural support, it is distinctly contrary to scripture. For we are expressly told thet even the individuals who were used by the Holy Spirit to utter the words did not themselves understand them. We find this in 1 Peter 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:10-12

 

[daq]

This is a principle invented out of thin air, without an atom of scripture to back it up.

But this concept does not only have no scriptural support, it is distinctly contrary to scripture. For we are expressly told thet even the individuals who were used by the Holy Spirit to utter the words did not themselves understand them. We find this in 1 Peter 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:10-12

That is an intentionally false statement because it is clearly not contrary to Scripture to uphold the Scripture. Likewise now you foolishly attempt to suggest that Paul wrote things he did not understand as if he were some "new age" auto-writer taking notes from a spirit entity, (which is witchcraft). In this case however Paul clearly understood what he meant but the fact of the matter is that you simply reject what he meant so that you may insert your own idolatrous mindset into the Scripture. It appears fairly clear that your answer is essentially that it is completely acceptable for you to annul the original meaning as it was written to the Thessalonians in their time and insert your own modern meaning. However, Paul likewise told the Corinthians about the "temple of God" when he writes:

1 Corinthians 3:16-20 KJV
16. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Do you not understand that this phrase in Greek is exactly the same as the "temple of God" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4? By what authority do you assume the right to change the meanings of such phrases when the author himself clearly tells us what he means in his writings with such a statement so important as "the temple of God"?

1 Corinthians 6:15-20 KJV
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Not only do you annul and trample the original intent from the text of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 but at the same time you completely ignore two other witnesses given by the same author which directly contradict what you proclaim to be truth. Moreover you can provide absolutely no authority or precedent to do what you do!

 

[Interplanner]

In that Thess passage he is using the standard understanding of Daniel's grossly wicked person in the temple.

 

[Dunbar]

I really enjoy your posts daq but I have to respectfully disagree. Many of the early church Fathers saw 2Thess. 2 as a literal temple. Jesus spoke of something similar and said it would be a sign to flee. We can't see spiritual signs in other people's hearts. There is a heavenly temple an earthly temple and a spiritual temple. Context is the key to knowing which is which.

 

[Old Timer]

I'd be interested in hearing how you're going to spiritualize away the warning to the church of God here concerning those who would say that the Day of the Lord has come.. and also how you'd spiritualize away the Lord destroying the man of sin by the brightness of His coming.

Obvious questions.. Has the Day of the Lord come?

Has the man of sin been destroyed by the brightness of the coming of Christ?

 

[daq]

In that Thess passage he is using the standard understanding of Daniel's grossly wicked person in the temple.

Partially true but actually that passage concerns more specifically the man who is symbolized in the prince of Tyre, and that is to say, not even the king of Tyre but merely the prince, (see Ezekiel 28:11-19 which follows this portion). The prince of Tyre sits in his own little body temple as we speak, thinking himself to be like a little god, even thinking his body to be his own just as most everyone here is doing all the while claiming to be "saved" as each little false prophet continues to pollute both sanctuaries of the Most High right here in the midst of the semi-congregation of believers. There are two temples which are firstly the entire Body of Messiah, of which every disciple is a distinct member with his or her various gifts, and the other is of course each his or her own body temple of which we are given "the keys to the spiritual doors" and commanded to Watch! as having been made the porters of the doors of the house, (which house is no longer our own) while the Master is "away in a far journey" according to Mark 13:31-37.

Ezekiel 28:1-10 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
2. Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
3. Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
4. With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
5. By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6. Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
7. Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
8. They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
9. Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
10. Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

Who here would think he is wiser than Daniel or even Paul?
Naahhh, . . . surely something so atrocious couldn't happen here right?
Yep, the abomination of desolation takes place in the heart just as Yeshua says.

 

[Old Timer]

The popular teaching of the modern prophecy shepherds pretty much nullifies any meaning whatsoever to the congregation of the Thessalonians who first received this epistle!

I don't understand how.. The Apostle to the Gentiles was warning them about those who would tell them that the Day of the LORD has come..

Is that what you're saying?

I receive the same warning today in a living and powerful way and even recognize the same error of any who would actually say that THAT DAY has come.

 

[Old Timer]

Same for those who would say that the resurrection is past..

Or who deny the bodily resurrection of the dead.

Many struggle with the man as Jacob does.. til this day even.

 

[daq]

I don't understand how.. The Apostle to the Gentiles was warning them about those who would tell them that the Day of the LORD has come..

Is that what you're saying?

I receive the same warning today in a living and powerful way and even recognize the same error of any who would actually say that THAT DAY has come.

It's quite a simple qestion.
Here it is again:

Can someone of the "future literal physical temple building" belief system please explain how the congregation of Thessalonica was supposed to understand Paul supposedly speaking of a "literal physical temple building made with hands" in the famous Thessalonians passage which so many say concerns a literal physical one-time "man of sin" walking into "the temple of God" showing himself that he is God?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

How can it be that the Thessalonians were supposed to understand this to mean the literal physical temple building which was yet standing in Jerusalem when their Macedonian congregation was well over a thousand miles away by land and two or three months away with good weather by sea? One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely. How can the Thessalonians have thought that Paul meant the literal temple building standing in Jerusalem when they were well over a thousand miles away and would not likely have heard about such an event for at least four to six months if ever? The popular teaching of the modern prophecy shepherds pretty much nullifies any meaning whatsoever to the congregation of the Thessalonians who first received this epistle! Help!

.

I was unsure so I went and looked up the mileage distance between Jerusalem and Thessalonica and found the following information:

Distance from Jerusalem to Thessaloniki: 918 miles / 1477.38 km / 797.72 nautical miles
http://www.prokerala.com/travel/distance/from-jerusalem/to-thessaloniki/

So the question remains this: How are the Thessalonians supposed to have thought that Paul spoke of the literal physical temple building in Jerusalem when they were about thousand miles away? They had none of the modern technical electrical gadgets we have today such as TV, satellites, smart phones, YouTube, radio, Kotel Cams at the Western Wall, or even a set of binoculars that could see a thousand miles away. Therefore Paul obviously does not mean the physical temple building in Jerusalem made with the hands of men when he writes the 2Thessalonians2 passage to them because they could not possibly have been "keeping an eye on" or watching the literal temple building in Jerusalem even if they desired to do so. In addition Stephen testifies the Truth which has always been the case concerning man made temples:

Acts 7:47-51 KJV
47. But Solomon built him an house.
48. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
50. Hath not my hand made all these things?
51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Clearly Stephen states that the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands. In fact he never has and never will. Just because he is in all places does not mean he "dwells" in all places. The same was true before the advent of Messiah as Stephen above likewise quotes from Isaiah the Prophet:

Isaiah 66:1-2 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2. For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Man has always been the true temple of God because man was created for this very purpose to be in communion with his Creator. Those who believe that the "temple of God" can ever be a physical material building made with hands are deceived because they have resisted the Holy Spirit, just as Stephen says, and the same have likewise rejected the love of the Truth just as Paul says in the same Thessalonians passage from this discussion.

 

[Biblewriter]

This is a principle invented out of thin air, without an atom of scripture to back it up.

But this concept does not only have no scriptural support, it is distinctly contrary to scripture. For we are expressly told thet even the individuals who were used by the Holy Spirit to utter the words did not themselves understand them. We find this in 1 Peter 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into.
1 Peter 1:10-12

That is an intentionally false statement because it is clearly not contrary to Scripture to uphold the Scripture. Likewise now you foolishly attempt to suggest that Paul wrote things he did not understand as if he were some "new age" auto-writer taking notes from a spirit entity, (which is witchcraft). In this case however Paul clearly understood what he meant but the fact of the matter is that you simply reject what he meant so that you may insert your own idolatrous mindset into the Scripture. It appears fairly clear that your answer is essentially that it is completely acceptable for you to annul the original meaning as it was written to the Thessalonians in their time and insert your own modern meaning.

If you were indeed "upholding" scripture, we would not be in disagreement. But you are insisting upon a principle of interpretation that is not taught anywhere in the entire Bible.

So instead, you resort to libel, falsely claiming that I am being "intentionally wrong." But you smply cannot change the fact that the Bible clearly indicates that they did not understand the apparent contradiction between the prophecies they had been given. And you cannot escape the fact that the same scripture explicitly says that it had been revealed to them that they were not ministering to themselves, but to a future people.

This is the positive and final proof that your alleged "first principle" is completely incorrect. And to be absolutely clear, I am speaking of your previous allegation that "One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely."

This is plainly stated scripture, and when you deny it, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God.

 

[daq]

If you were indeed "upholding" scripture, we would not be in disagreement. But you are insisting upon a principle of interpretation that is not taught anywhere in the entire Bible.

So instead, you resort to libel, falsely claiming that I am being "intentionally wrong." But you smply cannot change the fact that the Bible clearly indicates that they did not understand the apparent contradiction between the prophecies they had been given. And you cannot escape the fact that the same scripture explicitly says that it had been revealed to them that they were not ministering to themselves, but to a future people.

This is the positive and final proof that your alleged "first principle" is completely incorrect. And to be absolutely clear, I am speaking of your previous allegation that "One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely."

This is plainly stated scripture, and when you deny it, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with God.

One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely.

This is a principle invented out of thin air, without an atom of scripture to back it up.

But this concept does not only have no scriptural support, it is distinctly contrary to scripture.

Yes actually there is Scripture to back up what I said:

2 Corinthians 3:12-16 KJV
12. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13. And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16. Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

See the point here is not to annul what is written but rather to have the vail removed from your own heart and mind so that you may understand what is written when you read it. The whole point is to understand what is written as opposed to annulling, abolishing, and obfuscating what you do not want to accept. This passage likewise speaks specifically of Torah Moshe and O/T-Tanak which clearly remains vailed to you when you read it just as Paul states. And the only way that the vail over your heart and mind can be taken away is for your heart to be turned to the Father. And even now as likewise Paul clearly states in the above passage: this is great plainness of speech!

PS ~ PLEASE ANSWER THE THREAD OP QUESTION!

 

[tranquil]

Can someone of the "future literal physical temple building" belief system please explain how the congregation of Thessalonica was supposed to understand Paul supposedly speaking of a "literal physical temple building made with hands" in the famous Thessalonians passage which so many say concerns a literal physical one-time "man of sin" walking into "the temple of God" showing himself that he is God?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 KJV
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

How can it be that the Thessalonians were supposed to understand this to mean the literal physical temple building which was yet standing in Jerusalem when their Macedonian congregation was well over a thousand miles away by land and two or three months away with good weather by sea? One of the first principles when it comes to understanding Scripture is that if the understanding ignores and renders ineffective the primary meaning to the people for whom it is written then the understanding tramples the meaning completely. How can the Thessalonians have thought that Paul meant the literal temple building standing in Jerusalem when they were well over a thousand miles away and would not likely have heard about such an event for at least four to six months if ever? The popular teaching of the modern prophecy shepherds pretty much nullifies any meaning whatsoever to the congregation of the Thessalonians who first received this epistle! Help!

.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument boils down to this:

the "antichrist"/ man of sin has to sit in a holy place, call himself God, and show himself to be God.

- since the temple is not a holy place, the "man of sin" has to sit elsewhere to fulfill this scripture.

Is this what you are getting at? If so, I would wholeheartedly agree with this.

But if it is, then what would satisfy this scripture in your mind?

When people "idolize" him? People "idolize" pop singers on American Idol.

IMO, this can only be satisfied with "pharmakia"/ sorcery/ hallucinogens.

 

[Old Timer]

Just another lie that the Day of The Lord has come.. With all the fixings..

 

[daq]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument boils down to this:

the "antichrist"/ man of sin has to sit in a holy place, call himself God, and show himself to be God.

- since the temple is not a holy place, the "man of sin" has to sit elsewhere to fulfill this scripture.

Is this what you are getting at? If so, I would wholeheartedly agree with this.

But if it is, then what would satisfy this scripture in your mind?

When people "idolize" him? People "idolize" pop singers on American Idol.

IMO, this can only be satisfied with "pharmakia"/ sorcery/ hallucinogens.

Yes, that is what it boils down to as Paul says: "Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells within you?" How does this indwelling of the Spirit first occur at the Shavuot-Pentecost of Acts 2? The Holy Spirit was clearly seated upon them:

Acts 2:1-3 KJV
1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat [GSN#2523 kathizo] upon each of them.

Original Strong's Ref. #2523
Romanized kathizo
Pronounced kath-id'-zo
another (active) form for GSN2516; to seat down, i.e. set (figuratively, appoint); intransitively, to sit (down); figuratively, to settle (hover, dwell):
KJV--continue, set, sit (down), tarry.

The Holy Spirit was kathizo-seated upon each of them which had been with Yeshua throughout his earthly ministry soaking up his doctrine. This is the Biblical way in which spirits always work as far as being seated and the unclean spirit of antichristos is no different. For the same reasons Paul states in the same passage that the "man of sin", (unclean spirit) comes up from the mesos-midst:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 TUA (Tranlsiterated Unaccented Bible)
6. Kai nun to katechon oidate eis to apokalufthenai auton en to heautou kairo.
7. To gar musterion ede energeitai tes anomias, monon ho katechon arti heos ek mesou genetai.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
6. And presently him restrained (katechon) you know of, toward the revealing of him in his own appointed time (kairos).
7. For the mystery of lawlessness (anomias) is already energized; only he/it is restrained (katechon) for now (arti) until (heos) out from the midst (mesou) he comes to be (genetai).

This statement is truly in compliance with the Testimony of Yeshua who says that the man is the "house" in the following passage:

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

WHO is the first unclean spirit cast out of every believer according to Paul?

Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The first of the unclean spirit cast out of every disciple who commits himself or herself to Messiah is that unclean spirit of the world, the prince of the power of the air, (the Daniel 8:5 he-goat from the shadows of the west which "touches not the ground") the spirit that even now works or is energized in the sons of disobedience. Paul likewise calls him the "old man" which is also commonly referred to as the "old man sin nature" from several other passages. There are no exceptions for those who uphold the Testimony of Yeshua; in fact, if one has not committed himself to the doctrines and the Testimony of Yeshua then that is the only way the Luke passage above does not apply because the first unclean spirit of the world was never cast out of that one to begin with. Therefore we are given the keys to the "house", (which is no longer our own house) like the porter of the doors while the Master is "away in a far journey" and we are then commanded to "Watch!" as it is written at the close of the Mark 13 version of the Olivet Discourse. For the same reasons likewise in the lesser Epistles of John, where we find the only references to an antichristos, we read the following showing that spirits are also doctrines and testimonies:

1 John 4:1-3 KJV
1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

How many today are "testing the spirits" and their doctrines to see whether they be of God or not? How many are willing to believe the Scripture when it clearly states that antichristos is a false prophet spirit and even the spirit of the world having gone forth from among us into the world? If it went forth from us it is our old man antichristos spirit that Yeshua says will return with seven other spirits more wicked than himself. Then we also read the following warning from the same author concerning our own "house" which surely implies our own body, soul, heart, and mind, temple of God:

2 John 1:7-10 KJV
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

What we have today is unfortunately a wide range of so-called Bible scholars and teachers that have not been "testing the spirits" and their doctrines; neither have they been keeping watch over the "spiritual doors" of the house-temples they have been placed in charge of, like the porters of the doors, as every disciple of the Master is forewarned in Mark 13. Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many already have unknowingly allowed all eight fully wicked spirits to enter in; taking up residence in their own house-body-temples, which is clearly revealed by their fruits in everything that comes forth from their mouths, (which things proceed from the heart in the doctrine of Yeshua). It is not the end of the world, (yet) but it will be if they do not repent and allow those nasty doctrines to be cast out of themselves through the Testimony of Yeshua!

 

[Old Timer]

Not only is this thread a thinly guised denial of the truth concerning the DAY of the LORD.. it's also a demonstration of how the Holiness and absolute sinlessness of the Lord Jesus Christ is being attacked..

This post is trying to teach the nonsense that the man of sin takes up residence in the BODY OF CHRIST..

That's how ridiculous men are today in their super spiritual doctrines..

 

[Old Timer]

Here's the real question which will not be answered in this thread.. because the answer is obvious..

Has the Day of the Lord come?