How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[HitchSlap]

There isn't any evidence for most of the figures of that time period. so lets just pretend none of it happened.

I'm ok with this approach. Things happened, big whoop.

This just in: "Man walks on water" "Man raises dead dude" "Man turns water to wine" "Man heals sick" "Man kills tree with a curse" "Man cures blindness" "Man feeds thousands with a loaf and fish" "Man causes pigs to jump to their death" "Man is crucified and raises from the dead" "Man clears out temple"

See the difference? You have to admit, it kind of sounds like headlines for the "National Enquirer."

 

[Kylie]

There is zero contemporary non-biblical sources for Jesus. Remove the Gospels, and it's like he never existed.

And even the gospels are not contemporary.

In fact, I'm not aware of any sources that show the existence of a Jesus figure at the correct time which are actually reliable. Even with Josephus, the opinion is not unanimous, and even then, it seems that Josephus is just repeating what he has heard, which makes the claims hearsay.

 

[stevevw]

And even the gospels are not contemporary.

In fact, I'm not aware of any sources that show the existence of a Jesus figure at the correct time which are actually reliable. Even with Josephus, the opinion is not unanimous, and even then, it seems that Josephus is just repeating what he has heard, which makes the claims hearsay.

The greatest hoax in history. Make Orson Wells look like an amateur.

 

[Kylie]

The greatest hoax in history. Make Orson Wells look like an amateur.

I'm assuming you mean the hoax is making it seem like he didn't exist.

Could you tell me why we should believe in the existence of someone for whom we have no contemporary records?

 

[stevevw]

I'm ok with this approach. Things happened, big whoop.

This just in: "Man walks on water" "Man raises dead dude" "Man turns water to wine" "Man heals sick" "Man kills tree with a curse" "Man cures blindness" "Man feeds thousands with a loaf and fish" "Man causes pigs to jump to their death" "Man is crucified and raises from the dead" "Man clears out temple"

See the difference? You have to admit, it kind of sounds like headlines for the "National Enquirer."

No these things are said in among other acts of kindness and teachings. But then the church exploded after Jesus was crucified and many became martyrs and died for their beliefs. So they must have been pretty convinced to give up their lives. Yet when i hear of people doing something like that like the Waco thing or Charlie or the Jim Jones mass suicide I always think there is some irrational talk and actions as well like you often hear. The leader always has this God complex and anti social aspect about him. Yet every saying and teaching I have read from Jesus is sane , reasonable, wise, intelligent and very good advice. The words I have read from his follower's seems to make sense and is all quite reasonable. Something I wouldn't expect from nutters who would give their own life up for a person who fooled them all pretending to be the chosen one and Christ the son of God.

In the letters of Paul it talks about 3,000 at a time being converted. Paul is speaking to many people in his letters who are already saved and reminding them of the sacrifice of Jesus and living in the spirit of God. The church continued to grow fairly quick and some say that this is because of the great events that surrounded Jesus with the great wonders and miracles happening and people were seeing amazing things.

There must have been something big happening because the Church grew fast and spread to the far reaches of the empire and became the dominate religion of the roman empire. They had converted the very empire that tried to destroy the Christians and became the dominate religion of the western world. So it must have been the greatest show on earth. I dont think any Hollywood director has achieved anything like that. Rivals any great person we have had so far and the media outlets should find out their secret because they were sure successful . Pretty good for a figment of everyone's imagination. Boy we even still have holidays to celebrate it over 2000 years later.

 

[Heissonear]

I'm ok with this approach. Things happened, big whoop.

This just in: "Man walks on water" "Man raises dead dude" "Man turns water to wine" "Man heals sick" "Man kills tree with a curse" "Man cures blindness" "Man feeds thousands with a loaf and fish" "Man causes pigs to jump to their death" "Man is crucified and raises from the dead" "Man clears out temple"

See the difference? You have to admit, it kind of sounds like headlines for the "National Enquirer."

.

A bit of a Naturalistic mindset, since all things can be explained without the need of a god to a Naturalist.

Therefore any and all claimed miracles, particularly walking on water, dividing a few fish and loafs to feed thousands, turning water into wine, all these "ridiculous" claims are so far fetched from reality they are flat bazaar.

So says the mindset of those separated from Him and His Power on High, and those ignorant to His intricate purpose behind bringing them about in the natural.

Have you ever heard of physical shadows in the Scriptures, mate?

Your Spiritual Barrenness and lack of Spiritual Maturity has made you mentally stumble before us.

.

 

[quatona]

I must confess I´m pretty tired of Heissonear and others permanently refusing to support their claims, and instead keep attacking the strawman "Naturalism".
And here´s why:
The question "What are the natural laws? What is possible in nature and what isn´t?" is and should be a foundational question to Supernaturalists more than anybody else. After all, without having established what is possible in a naturalist world is a requirement for discerning supernatural events and miracles from natural and ordinary events. Thus, the naturalist position (regardless whether it´s true or not) serves a purpose that´s foundational to everyone who wants to operate with the term "supernatural".
Thanks to people who look at the universe under strictly naturalist criteria (aka scientists) we have an constantly improving understanding of natural laws and the limits of nature. Thanks to those scientists our understanding of these laws and limits is permanently tested, modified, changed. This also serves a foundational purpose to the Supernaturalist (see above).
Of course, such researches works best when done at the limits/borders of that which is our current understanding of the laws of nature.
That´s why the (hypothetically) naturalist approach is so interested in events that (seemingly or factually) violate our current understanding of these laws (e.g. "miracles"): It might change our understanding of them, it might lead to new findings (and has so often enough), etc.
This also is in the best interest of the Supernaturalist - after all, his position and understanding depends squarely on what is natural.

But strangely enough, we learn that the resident Supernaturalists aren´t cooperative when it comes to investigating that which is a crucial requirement for their own view and position (and, on top, one might even expect them to have done this homework themselves - before they show up here and declare a certain event a "miracle). They are doing the very opposite: They refuse to provide the data, the evidence, the sources, etc., and instead resort to attacking the limited knowledge of Naturalism.

So let´s remember: this thread started with the description of the "miracle" that all 15 members of a group were at least 5 minutes late at a meeting. Our current understanding of nature isn´t challenged by this fact. This is, even under a strictly naturalist view, entirely possible and not even that unlikely to happen. In its own best interests, the intellectually honest Supernaturalist would admit that right away.

Now, spontaneously regrowing limbs are an entirely different matter. If such occurances have been observed they may (or may not) be a threat to the Naturalist pov. As shown above, it would be in the best interest of the Supernaturalist to provide all information that´s available and have it put to scrutinity. Yet, what we get is not only the refusal to do so - we also get massive irrelevant attacks on the naturalist worldview, we get appeals to Heissonear´s and other´s superiour and exclusive understanding, we get obsfucation and obscurantism.

And that puts a huge questionmark behind their intellectual honesty.

 

[Heissonear]

I must confess I´m pretty tired of Heissonear and others permanently refusing to support their claims, and instead keep attacking the strawman "Naturalism".
And here´s why:
The question "What are the natural laws? What is possible in nature and what isn´t?" is and should be a foundational question to Supernaturalists more than anybody else. After all, without having established what is possible in a naturalist world is a requirement for discerning supernatural events and miracles from natural and ordinary events. Thus, the naturalist position (regardless whether it´s true or not) serves a purpose that´s foundational to everyone who wants to operate with the term "supernatural".
Thanks to people who look at the universe under strictly naturalist criteria (aka scientists) we have an constantly improving understanding of natural laws and the limits of nature. Thanks to those scientists our understanding of these laws and limits is permanently tested, modified, changed. This also serves a foundational purpose to the Supernaturalist (see above).
Of course, such researches works best when done at the limits/borders of that which is our current understanding of the laws of nature.
That´s why the (hypothetically) naturalist approach is so interested in events that (seemingly or factually) violate our current understanding of these laws (e.g. "miracles"): It might change our understanding of them, it might lead to new findings (and has so often enough), etc.
This also is in the best interest of the Supernaturalist - after all, his position and understanding depends squarely on what is natural.

But strangely enough, we learn that the resident Supernaturalists aren´t cooperative when it comes to investigating that which is a crucial requirement for their own view and position (and, on top, one might even expect them to have done this homework themselves - before they show up here and declare a certain event a "miracle). They are doing the very opposite: They refuse to provide the data, the evidence, the sources, etc., and instead resort to attacking the limited knowledge of Naturalism.

So let´s remember: this thread started with the description of the "miracle" that all 15 members of a group were at least 5 minutes late at a meeting. Our current understanding of nature isn´t challenged by this fact. This is, even under a strictly naturalist view, entirely possible and not even that unlikely to happen. In its own best interests, the intellectually honest Supernaturalist would admit that right away.

Now, spontaneously regrowing limbs are an entirely different matter. If such occurances have been observed they may (or may not) be a threat to the Naturalist pov. As shown above, it would be in the best interest of the Supernaturalist to provide all information that´s available and have it put to scrutinity. Yet, what we get is not only the refusal to do so - we also get massive irrelevant attacks on the naturalist worldview, we get appeals to Heissonear´s and other´s superiour and exclusive understanding, we get obsfucation and obscurantism.

And that puts a huge questionmark behind their intellectual honesty.

.

Mate, what you are tired of Spiritual Barrenness. You say this is an assertion without evidence - that's to you and others in Spiritual Poverty. You lack evidence, not us.

You want your natural world to be the boundaries of discussion. You live in a box then mate, and promote such.

You also fail to realize I was more of a godless Naturalist at one time than most of these forum "church goers fall from faith" crowd. What Naturalism do they have? Let's just say very immature compared to those who only know such about existence by upbringing and formal education.

Again, on this miracles thread, I happen to be able to provide firsthand witness, not hear say. Yet you whine.

You need it to be "proved to you" of something only Power on High can do.

Face it, you missed out on "the evidence" like what I experienced. Even Supernatural Spiritual events that have always taken place without your knowing. I know, I was a Naturalist myself, with zero awareness of God at work in our midst. But then one day things changed fpr me. Yet you whine and state the process of obtaining evidence that worldly "Naturalists" follow. You do not get it, mate.

If you could see the Spiritual Dynamics happening right now, this day on earth, you would wind up the floor, overwelmed, distraught, overcomed in you frailty. Instead, you act like other Naturalists on earth today, that you are the most high species around and the pinnacle of understanding the existence around us. What a joke. What arrogance. What ignorance. How immature.

The Spiritual ignorance you and others like you have is your problem. The evidence needed to understand these things your problem. Him on High is always near. What He does is beyond you. Live with it or get in on it, mate. A former godless geology educated Naturalist is telling you this, not a Sunday go preacher.

.

 

[bhsmte]

And that is today's sermon from heiss. Stay tuned for upcoming attractions.

 

[Heissonear]

And that is today's sermon from heiss. Stay tuned for upcoming attractions.

.
It is distressing to see people unaware of God and His works. To see how strong Unbelief can be. To see "other ways of understanding" about what this existence is about. To the natural, the natural dominates them. The Heavens remained closed and locked unto them. It is a common day in the Natural Sciences departments of secular universities. Citadels of unbelief, supreme.

But it is distressing to see natural accidents of all types too.

It is interesting how someone can see in one domain such distressing events but not in the other.

In your upbringing you "seen and heard" the religion of Christianity. You learned and experienced many things during that part of your life. I think what has failed you is your summation of what Christianity is.

I challenge you on an aspect of "Christianity". You know in Revelations when things are "poured out from Heaven upon the earth". Vials of stuff, etc. Combine this phenomenon with what the Prophets prophesied about
"The Day of The Lord".


What is the Biblical "Day of The Lord"?

What in latter times "gets poured out" and effects those on earth?


Yea, I witnessed a few physical miracles but the more significant matters happening in our midst is what I challenge you to. Once you find out the basics of what these Biblical items mean I challenge you to prove they are not happening now.

Point blank, you overcome or you are overcomed. This applies to what?

On one side of experiencing Power from on High are seeing deformed arms grow and become whole. On the other is "Spiritual Understanding of Great Importance", less you be a casualty. The latter I challenge you to. You think things are sermons, so lets test your view, from your Christian background.

.

 

[bhsmte]

.
It is distressing to see people unaware of God and His works. To see how strong Unbelief can be. To see "other ways of understanding" about what this existence is about. To the natural, the natural dominates them. The Heavens remained closed and locked unto them. It is a common day in the Natural Sciences departments of secular universities. Citadels of unbelief, supreme.

But it is distressing to see natural accidents of all types too.

It is interesting how someone can see in one domain such distressing events but not in the other.

In your upbringing you "seen and heard" the religion of Christianity. You learned and experienced many things during that part of your life. I think what has failed you is your summation of what Christianity is.

I challenge you on an aspect of "Christianity". You know in Revelations when things are "poured out from Heaven upon the earth". Vials of stuff, etc. Combine this phenomenon with what the Prophets prophesied about
"The Day of The Lord".


What is the Biblical "Day of The Lord"?

What in latter times "gets poured out" and effects those on earth?


Yea, I witnessed a few physical miracles but the more significant matters happening in our midst is what I challenge you to. Once you find out the basics of what these Biblical items mean I challenge you to prove they are not happening now.

Point blank, you overcome or you are overcomed. This applies to what?

On one side of experiencing Power from on High are seeing deformed arms grow and become whole. On the other is "Spiritual Understanding of Great Importance", less you be a casualty. The latter I challenge you to. You think things are sermons, so lets test your view, from your Christian background.

.

Clearly it distresses you that others disagree with you, but I would try to get over that, because there will always be people who disagree with you.

And, preaching may be an effective way of reassuring your beliefs are in tact, but they are meaningless to others.

 

[Heissonear]

Clearly it distresses you that others disagree with you, but I would try to get over that, because there will always be people who disagree with you.

And, preaching may be an effective way of reassuring your beliefs are in tact, but they are meaningless to others.

.
Religion as a crutch. Yea, preach it!

Meanwhile, I'm challenging your summation of "Christianity", even the Christianity you turned from.

Tell me what "The Day of the Lord" is.

Then prove the Day of the Lord is not here, happening in our midst.

.

 

[Nithavela]

The day of the lord is a grilled cheese sandwitch. It isn't here, because I ate it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

.
Religion as a crutch. Yea, preach it!

Meanwhile, I'm challenging your summation of "Christianity", even the Christianity you turned from.

Tell me what "The Day of the Lord" is.

Then prove the Day of the Lord is not here, happening in our midst.

.

I don't think most people use religion as a crutch, there are definitely some but I wouldn't say that it is a majority. Just because it is religion doesn't mean it can't be misused.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't think most people use religion as a crutch, there are definitely some but I wouldn't say that it is a majority. Just because it is religion doesn't mean it can't be misused.

Correct and I never stated he used religion as a crutch and simply stated; I believed his constant rhetoric, is likely more to convince himself about his faith than others.

 

[florida2]

The day of the lord is a grilled cheese sandwitch. It isn't here, because I ate it.

I have to admit, that did make me laugh.

 

[quatona]

.

Mate, what you are tired of Spiritual Barrenness. You say this is an assertion without evidence - that's to you and others in Spiritual Poverty. You lack evidence, not us.

You want your natural world to be the boundaries of discussion. You live in a box then mate, and promote such.

You also fail to realize I was more of a godless Naturalist at one time than most of these forum "church goers fall from faith" crowd. What Naturalism do they have? Let's just say very immature compared to those who only know such about existence by upbringing and formal education.

Again, on this miracles thread, I happen to be able to provide firsthand witness, not hear say. Yet you whine.

You need it to be "proved to you" of something only Power on High can do.

Face it, you missed out on "the evidence" like what I experienced. Even Supernatural Spiritual events that have always taken place without your knowing. I know, I was a Naturalist myself, with zero awareness of God at work in our midst. But then one day things changed fpr me. Yet you whine and state the process of obtaining evidence that worldly "Naturalists" follow. You do not get it, mate.

If you could see the Spiritual Dynamics happening right now, this day on earth, you would wind up the floor, overwelmed, distraught, overcomed in you frailty. Instead, you act like other Naturalists on earth today, that you are the most high species around and the pinnacle of understanding the existence around us. What a joke. What arrogance. What ignorance. How immature.

The Spiritual ignorance you and others like you have is your problem. The evidence needed to understand these things your problem. Him on High is always near. What He does is beyond you. Live with it or get in on it, mate. A former godless geology educated Naturalist is telling you this, not a Sunday go preacher.

.

Why do you quote my post when you don´t even intend to address what´s been said? Have you even read it?

 

[stevevw]

I have to admit, that did make me laugh.

Yeah i like grilled cheese sandwiches. I havnt heard it put quite that way before.

 

[freezerman2000]

I have to admit, that did make me laugh.

I laughed so hard,I spit mine out...

 

[Heissonear]

The day of the lord is a grilled cheese sandwitch. It isn't here, because I ate it.

.

Natural man is in folly, and promotes vanity.

Foolish naturalistic man is ignorant to not only God, but to His plan in action in the Last Days.

Many on this forum "doubt" God performs Miracles in our day, even though some have witnessed them firsthand.

And like the discarding of miracles, they do the same to the present events taking place on earth due to the Dynamics of the Spiritual: by this they fail to see what is happening on earth in our generation.

.