How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Michael]

Precisely, there is a good chance that Christianity would not be widespread but rather restricted to a small geographic area were it not for Constantine and his soldiers.

There's no doubt that once Christianity became the 'official' religion of Rome, it began to spread much more rapidly than before, but Christianity was already pretty wide spread before Constantine. I'm pretty sure that's why it was an attractive political tool from his perspective. Constantine certainly put the whole process of distribution into high gear, and he was instrumental in forming the earliest official canon of Christianity.

 

[Michael]

Must have been real complicated having a military when christianity was that widespread in the legions and they used christians as lion food habitually.

Probably it was more like 'don't ask, don't tell'.

 

[Nithavela]

So, how did Constantin know about the widespread christianity and that it would make a usefull political tool to sway the army? Did the soldiers not tell anyone but the emperor himself? Despite that most emperors before him supposedly burnt and slaughtered christians (or, more precisely, ordered that to be done)

 

[Michael]

So, how did Constantin know about the widespread christianity and that it would make a usefull political tool to sway the army?

I'm sure he wasn't blind to what was going on in Rome, or within his own army.

Did the soldiers not tell anyone but the emperor himself?

I dunno. Did they?

Despite that most emperors before him supposedly burnt and slaughtered christians (or, more precisely, ordered that to be done)

You have exactly zero evidence that anyone in *Constantine's* army was ever persecuted for their beliefs, either pagan or Christian.

 

[Kylie]

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This is a Miracles thread. And Jesus still performs them all the time in our generation.

The closer you get to Him the more He reveals; the farther you get from Him the more a person can doubt that He even existed.


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Really? I mean, looking at the miracles God performed in the Bible, we don't see anything remotely like that today. Where are the booming voices from the sky? Where are the bushes that burn and yet aren't consumed? Where are the parting seas?

So I'm surely you'll understand that when you say Jesus performs miracles today I just don't believe you.

 

[Kylie]

Faith?

Do you want us to believe in Charles Darwin?

I haven't seen anything from him lately.

Maybe, but we have plenty of contemporary evidences that he lived, we have texts written by his hand, and we have people alive today that can trace their ancestry directly back to him.

But I suppose all that can take a hike, since it kinda ruins your argument. Pesky reality, huh?

 

[Kylie]

And lasts, considered true for 2000 years, pretty much.

Like Judaism? Are you going to become Jewish now? If I recall correctly, Judaism has been around for longer than Christianity...

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe, but we have plenty of contemporary evidences that he lived, we have texts written by his hand, and we have people alive today that can trace their ancestry directly back to him.

The difference is, you have to have those evidences to believe -- I don't.

I believe Charles Darwin existed because I have faith in those who said he did.

Yes ... I've seen photographs of him, but they did nothing to generate my belief in his existence, since I already believe he did.

Again, you're the one who needs his contemporary records ... not I.

You ask:

Could you tell me why we should believe in the existence of someone for whom we have no contemporary records?

And when I respond: "Faith?" I get a response like this from you?

Why don't you quit beating around the bush and tell us what your real problem is?

 

[quatona]

Faith?

Do you want us to believe in Charles Darwin?

I haven't seen anything from him lately.

I couldn´t care less whether Darwin has existed or not. The question is completely irrelevant for any intent or purpose I can think of.
Would you say the same about Jesus?

 

[AV1611VET]

I couldn´t care less whether Darwin has existed or not.

So?

What does that have to do with anything?

If you were asked if he did, what would you say?

I'm sure it would be the same thing I would say.

The question is completely irrelevant for any intent or purpose I can think of.

Then should I take this question:

Could you tell me why we should believe in the existence of someone for whom we have no contemporary records?

... with a grain of salt?

Would you say the same about Jesus?

No.

 

[Kylie]

The difference is, you have to have those evidences to believe -- I don't.

So why do you believe in some incredible claims (such as Jesus walking on water) yet disbelieve other incredible claims (like my daughter floating magically in mid air)?

I believe Charles Darwin existed because I have faith in those who said he did.

Yes ... I've seen photographs of him, but they did nothing to generate my belief in his existence, since I already believe he did.

Again, you're the one who needs his contemporary records ... not I.

You make it sound like wanting evidence before you believe in something is a bad thing.

Tell me, AV, is it bad to want evidence of a thing before you accept that thing as true?

You ask:

And when I respond: "Faith?" I get a response like this from you?

Why don't you quit beating around the bush and tell us what your real problem is?

I would have thought it is obvious. I do not think that believing in anything which has no evidence to support it is a smart thing to do.

 

[quatona]

So?

What does that have to do with anything?

It matters a lot for the question if your comparison relevant.

If you were asked if he did, what would you say?

"I don´t know and I don´t care. As far as I can tell, there´s pretty solid evidence that he did, though. In any case, it doesn´t matter in any way - the evalutation of the accuracy of the theories ascribed to him doesn´t hinge on his existence."

I'm sure it would be the same thing I would say.

Cool. Then you apparently are aware of the difference I am pointing out.

Then should I take this question:

... with a grain of salt?

You can take it any way you wish to take it. However, you didn´t take it at all - you simpy responded with a counterquestion.

No.

Thanks for a straightforward answer.

 

[AV1611VET]

So why do you believe in some incredible claims (such as Jesus walking on water) yet disbelieve other incredible claims (like my daughter floating magically in mid air)?

It's called "faith".

And what makes you think I wouldn't believe your daughter magically floated in mid air?

Why is that an "incredible claim"?

Isn't magic done with hidden wires?

You make it sound like wanting evidence before you believe in something is a bad thing.

Only if you listen to selected parts of the record.

Tell me, AV, is it bad to want evidence of a thing before you accept that thing as true?

No.

I would have thought it is obvious. I do not think that believing in anything which has no evidence to support it is a smart thing to do.

Suit yourself ... but when you apply that to the Bible, you're going too far.

In my opinion.

 

[Heissonear]

Really? I mean, looking at the miracles God performed in the Bible, we don't see anything remotely like that today. Where are the booming voices from the sky? Where are the bushes that burn and yet aren't consumed? Where are the parting seas?

So I'm surely you'll understand that when you say Jesus performs miracles today I just don't believe you.

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KTS, you would be surprised to hear of what He has done, even over the last 20 years, much less the past 100 years.

We are talking about God's Power manifested over the natural in our day and age. Just because they were witnessed by thousands does not mean He Choose to display them or make them known before multitudes of naturalistic people.

There have been many outpourings of the Holy Spirit over the last 100 years, and several over the past 20 years. Just because you have not been a part of them does not mean that what the Spirit did on earth, even over the natural, did not happen. I have been fortunate to have been included in several. People full of doubt are not the experts about God and about His Power on High.

But since His Power Displayed is spontaneous, the demonstrations are now in the past. What remains are the people that witnessed the Power demonstrated openly before them; He made them witnesses.

New Miracles and outpourings of the Holy Spirit lie before us. Who will become His witnesses? Who will get in on these Works of God? Have you set yourself in a position before Him to be a part?

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[TLK Valentine]

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KTS, you would be surprised to hear of what He has done, even over the last 20 years, much less the past 100 years.

No, I wouldn't. I'd be pretty darn surprised to actually see it, but that's another matter.

We are talking about God's Power manifested over the natural in our day and age. Just because they were witnessed by thousands does not mean He Choose to display them or make them known before multitudes of naturalistic people.

So He hides it, just not particularly well.

There have been many outpourings of the Holy Spirit over the last 100 years, and several over the past 20 years. Just because you have not been a part of them does not mean that what the Spirit did on earth, even over the natural, did not happen. I have been fortunate to have been included in several. People full of doubt are not the experts about God and about His Power on High.

People hawking spirituality aren't the most reliable sources, either.

But since His Power Displayed is spontaneous, the demonstrations are now in the past. What remains are the people that witnessed the Power demonstrated openly before them; He made them witnesses.

or maybe He didn't.

New Miracles and outpourings of the Holy Spirit lie before us. Who will become His witnesses? Who will get in on these Works of God? Have you set yourself in a position before Him to be a part?

Look at the millions who have and still gotten squat for their troubles.

If you think about it, a miracle-performing God is less worthy of worship than one who does nothing -- His few actions serve to draw attention to His countless inactions.

Like I said, think about it.

 

[Heissonear]

No, I wouldn't. I'd be pretty darn surprised

or maybe He didn't.

Look at the millions who have and still gotten squat for their troubles.
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There are several on this forum who have in the past "gave it an earnest try" to try and know with certainty if God and Christianity is real. The result from their earnest efforts and experiences is they have empty hands. The found nothing - no God was found and Christianity is just a religion, it is full of error and things that are untrue. Christianity is man made.

This may be your background and conclusions from your earnest search for Him.

But you apply what you concluded to all others, including to others that walked the same path to seek to know if His, and if Christianity is true, the product God. (minus what some men tried to add to it)

Your past experience s resulted in empty hands. On this forum you reject all who say Christianity is from God and that God exists. You reject Miracles by the most High. You say they are not real, God did not demonstrate His Power, nor truely demonstrated His Power over the natural.

How you and others on this forum "got squat" does not transfer. It has been the conclusions ypu and others have arrived at. There are others who "found Him" in no uncertain way. Even some who have witnessed His Power over the natural firsthand, having witnessed one or more of His miracles.

We do not receive your conclusions and Posts about "He does not exist". We know we have obtained from Him on High what you could not find.

This one verse alone states what many have firsthand found in seeking Him:

"but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power" I Corinthians 2:5

Many on this forum lack this "demonstration". There words show it. They do not see what they need to see. Plain and simple.

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[Syd the Human]

There are several on this forum who have in the past "gave it an earnest try" to try and know with certainty if God and Christianity is real. The result from their earnest efforts and experiences is they have empty hands. The found nothing - no God was found and Christianity is just a religion, it is full of error and things that are untrue. Christianity is man made.

This may be your background and conclusions from your earnest search for Him.

But you apply what you concluded to all others, including to others that walked the same path to seek to know if His, and if Christianity is true, the product God. (minus what some men tried to add to it)

Your past experience s resulted in empty hands. On this forum you reject all who say Christianity is from God and that God exists. You reject Miracles by the most High. You say they are not real, God did not demonstrate His Power, nor truely demonstrated His Power over the natural.

How you and others on this forum "got squat" does not transfer. It has been the conclusions ypu and others have arrived at. There are others who "found Him" in no uncertain way. Even some who have witnessed His Power over the natural firsthand, having witnessed one or more of His miracles.

We do not receive your conclusions and Posts about "He does not exist". We know we have obtained from Him on High what you could not find.

This one verse alone states what many have firsthand found in seeking Him:

"but in demonstration of the Spirit and of Power" I Corinthians 2:5

Many on this forum lack this "demonstration". There words show it. They do not see what they need to see. Plain and simple.

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Or, you saw what you wanted to see.

I don't think anyone on here wants you to receive the conclusions we have. I don't mind at all that people have faith in a god. I just want to see how you all think sometimes, and other times to have you think about what you're saying. If anything these talks should strengthen your faith by making you think deeply about it more often.

 

[Kylie]

KTS, you would be surprised to hear of what He has done, even over the last 20 years, much less the past 100 years.

Give me five examples of something that could only have come from a god or supernatural being. Make sure you provide checkable facts so I can see independent sources.

We are talking about God's Power manifested over the natural in our day and age. Just because they were witnessed by thousands does not mean He Choose to display them or make them known before multitudes of naturalistic people.

And I maintain that we never see God's power manifested over the natural in today's society.

There have been many outpourings of the Holy Spirit over the last 100 years, and several over the past 20 years. Just because you have not been a part of them does not mean that what the Spirit did on earth, even over the natural, did not happen. I have been fortunate to have been included in several. People full of doubt are not the experts about God and about His Power on High.

Claims, claims, claims, all with nothing to back them up.

But since His Power Displayed is spontaneous, the demonstrations are now in the past. What remains are the people that witnessed the Power demonstrated openly before them; He made them witnesses.

Again, nothing but claims. No support.

New Miracles and outpourings of the Holy Spirit lie before us. Who will become His witnesses? Who will get in on these Works of God? Have you set yourself in a position before Him to be a part?

You sound like the 1950s educational films about astronauts they used to show in schools. "Tomorrow's astro-men are already alive today! Who will be the first person to walk on Mars? Could it be you?"

 

[Heissonear]

Give me five examples of something that could only have come from a god or supernatural being. Make sure you provide checkable facts so I can see independent sources.

And I maintain that we never see God's power manifested over the natural in today's society.

Claims, claims, claims, all with nothing to back them up.

Again, nothing but claims. No support.

You sound like the 1950s educational films about astronauts they used to show in schools. "Tomorrow's astro-men are already alive today! Who will be the first person to walk on Mars? Could it be you?"

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You are deep in doubt. You state "I maintain that we NEVER see God's Power manifested over the natural in Today's society". Such are your words from your experience, and experiences from many you have been around.

"Claim, claim, nothing but claims, with no support" you state.

You have been in the physical world too long without encountering Power above the natural. Like your experience, I too have been and continue to be around many people who see things your way, even those who have a life long experience of "nothing in hand nor heart from Him in High".

But the witness of people empty handed and full of doubt DOES NOT TRANSFER. There are many who possess what you do not have. What they have is a product from Him on High. They witnessed what multitudes have not. I would call that "more precious than all the gold in the world in value". Yep, that is what He gives, and it's value.

I realized this when I was first Baptized by His Spirit; "the haves and the have nots". For over a year before meeting Him there was a churning within me of being in a world of "those who have and those who have not", in all its applications in this world, including how some were born into circumstances of severe have not, and the opposite for others on earth. This tore my heart.

He knows and controls such "outward, in the physical" circumstances. He knows what He is doing, though we think the opposite! His intelligence is millions of light years above our thoughts! At times we think that God does not know anything, nor see peoples circumstances. So be it, to those not aware of Him.

You call my statements "claims unsupported". What you do not know is what you are really saying. They are "way out there" TO YOU.

It is nice to go by an expensive car, and large, nice house in a pretty area. It is great to have a high income salary, and the like. But none compares to having in hand, witnessing firsthand, by His choosing, Power from on High that rules over the natural, plain and simple.

He is worth more than any thing in this world. When you know that, and you seek Him, you will find Him.

As I once had great concern about those who are "without", I know what they can possess in their physical poverty. You have yet to find out how rich some in "physical poverty" are, and in turn, how poor many in "physical prosperity" are, even in higher education "the haves verses the have nots". You are going to be greatly surprised at Him on High, and His ways.

May God give you grace in your days ahead.

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[Heissonear]

Or, you saw what you wanted to see.

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When the woman with a young child approach me and a friend, as as she presented her babies deformed arm, and asked to pray that his arm would become normal, you are telling me and my friend we were dreaming.

Then when I prayed to Him Who is Above to heal the childs arm, and then before mine and my friends eyes the little arm grew in length and was made normal and whole, you think it was all in our mind.

Without being there you have no way to say real ir false, other than if you have deep doubt that God exists, and deep doubts about Miracles still happening, then you would express doubt, such as you have.

You have an issue with doubt towards Power on High. What will it take to overcome it? Are you ready for Him to show you He is?

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