Do masons build?

[circuitrider]

Isn't Arminianism just a sub-set of Calvinism? The former was developed out of the latter, right? They share a "common ancestry", theologically speaking, even if they've parted ways at some point.

It's kind of interesting that John Calvin exerted such a lasting and universal influence on anglophone Christianity, whereas Martin Luther's decidedly more humane protestantism never played a huge part in the history of Britain and its colonies.

No, there are some similar features but there are also very marked differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. I'm not sure what you mean by "common ancestry" but if you two systems share a common ancestry then one of the systems isn't necessarily a subset of the other.

In some ways Arminianism is a reaction to Calvinism and its abuses.

 

[Skip Sampson]

If he can't find cults he has to make them up. If he can't find facts that confirm he will make those up too.

your erroneous assertions are legion.

Only God can bring about a major shift which might cause you to change you mind. I'll let the Almighty work on that...

It is Skip's far right fundamentalism that is the religion that only the almighty can cure. I can't talk Skip out of his far right extremist fundamentalism, only God can.

May God forgive you for bearing false witness against millions of Christian men who are active in Freemasonry and show you the error of your ways.

It is interesting to see the progression of criticism I get from this UMC pastor. He claims I'm wrong, but won't back it up. Generally, any real error I make is usually responded to and documented, which is the way it should be. But he cannot do that so he's resorted to unsupported claims.

But see how he's now moved it to God's realm. That I'm against Freemasonry is sufficient for him to make charges he cannot back up and to use God's condemnation as his preferred weapon. Keep in mind that not only is he a pastor, but he's one of the 'good' men being made 'better' by being Freemasons. Since my crime, in his eyes, is criticizing Freemasonry, his condemnation therefore knows no bounds. He feels free to condemn my religious views, which he does not know, by implying that God condemns them. He sees my sins of criticizing Freemasonry as needing God's absolution. This is how Freemasons respond to criticism, which is a clear lesson about Freemasonry, and Freemasons, to everyone.

More to the point, it also sheds light on a view among Freemasons that the Order fits into God's plan. Bear in mind that the Masonic lodge is erected to God, that God is seen as being present in the lodge during it's meetings, that the candidate is seen as forming a partnership with God as a result of his initiation, that he takes his obligations in the presence of God, kneels at the Lodge's sacred altar, and comes into the Master Mason degree to the very presence of God to learn what He wants him to know. In my view, it shows that the mission of Freemasonry to prepare men to be used in God's holy Temple in heaven, regardless of what they believe here on earth. It is the end conclusion of the spiritual temple that they are told to build.

God will indeed hold me accountable for my sins, which are indeed legion. But factual criticism of Freemasonry will not be one of them. Cordially, Skip.

 

[smaneck]

Isn't Arminianism just a sub-set of Calvinism? The former was developed out of the latter, right? They share a "common ancestry", theologically speaking, even if they've parted ways at some point.

Yeah, but the parted over the key element of the Reformation, namely Predestination.

It's kind of interesting that John Calvin exerted such a lasting and universal influence on anglophone Christianity, whereas Martin Luther's decidedly more humane protestantism never played a huge part in the history of Britain and its colonies.

Keep in mind, though, that Luther believed in Predestination every bit as much as Calvin. Calvin's version was just more systematic.

 

[smaneck]

In my view, it shows that the mission of Freemasonry to prepare men to be used in God's holy Temple in heaven, regardless of what they believe here on earth. It is the end conclusion of the spiritual temple that they are told to build.

And what exactly do you think that means, given the fact that the consider their own bodies to be temples?

 

[Skip Sampson]

And what exactly do you think that means, given the fact that the consider their own bodies to be temples?

Read my posts on this thread and you'll get the idea: http://www.christianforums.com/t7596038/ As well, my post #98 on this thread deals with the subject.

Of note, here are some comments by a Past Grand Master out of Iowa. His book Companion to the Monitor, 1942, contains his personal views, but appears to be published by the Grand Lodge. At the very least, it contains the views of a very knowledgeable Iowa Mason:

There is a great task laid out for you on the trestle-board--that of building your Spiritual Temple on the foundation stone which in the first degree was carefully placed in the north-east corner of the lodge. You have served your time as an Entered Apprentice and have been taught the holy principles of morality and virtue. (pg. 37)

But ours the purity of service, for Freemasons believe that he serves God who serves his fellow man. For us the rugged labor of the quarry, hewing out of human society the blocks of manhood needed by the Master Builder and shaping and polishing them for His use. (pg. 108)

But if you heed the lessons so earnestly recommended in Masonry, if you spread all through your life the cement of brotherly love and affection, if you serve your fellow man, the trowel in your hand will be the real emblem of the master; and the fabric of your life, your spiritual temple, will rise stately, magnificent, inspiring, a joy to the beholder, a serene satisfaction to yourself, and acceptable in the sight of the Great Architect of the Universe. (pg. 113)

So, My Brother, use your working tools. Make your ashlar perfect, breaking off its rough corners with your gavel and squaring it with the square of virtue so that it may be accepted by the Master Builder and be fitted into its own particular place in His great design. (pg. 116)

Once one understands the meaning and perception of the Masonic spiritual temple, it becomes clear that Masonry does claim to be preparing men for heaven. Once that is clear, this comes into play:

d Here again we have the sense of completeness, for these seven main subjects, with their modern branches, cover every field of mental activity; hence the represent universal knowledge--a complete education--the fullfillment of God's plan for mankind.

e Man is supreme over all God's creatures in his power to think and reason. Contemplating this fact, we realize that we are under a great obligation to improve ourselves in Masonry, to use our symbolic working tools in the realm of mind and spirit for the building of that imperishable Temple we call CHARACTER. Let us work diligently, therefore, not because "night is coming when man's work is done;" but, rather, that we may be prepared to do better work in that brighter world where all good Masons hope at last to arrive when their work on earth is finished. (pgs. 70 - 71)

So all Masons are to perfect their character, and if they do so, they will be acceptable to the Grand Master in heaven. This Masonic view is not the Christian view of salvation. Moral virtue will not save you, nor will any number of your good works.

I've noted it before, but it's worth repeating: when a person is saved, the Holy Spirit enters into him, making him a new creation. So only believers in Jesus Christ have that Spirit, can claim to be saved, can call upon God as their Father. Masonry claims that all Masons can so improve their character that each becomes a Temple of God, can call on God as their Father, can enter heaven on that basis alone. You get your choice in the matter: the Bible or Freemasonry. You cannot have both. Cordially, Skip.

 

[smaneck]

I've noted it before, but it's worth repeating: when a person is saved, the Holy Spirit enters into him, making him a new creation. So only believers in Jesus Christ have that Spirit, can claim to be saved, can call upon God as their Father.

Not going to get far with that argument with me! I'll call God Father if I want to.

Masonry claims that all Masons can so improve their character that each becomes a Temple of God, can call on God as their Father, can enter heaven on that basis alone. You get your choice in the matter: the Bible or Freemasonry. You cannot have both. Cordially, Skip.

They are clearly using the Bible as well, just not the parts you want to fixate on.

I would like to know what you think about Chick Publications.

 

[circuitrider]

Skip is frustrated because I'm not playing his usual game.

The usual playbook is that someone asks a question about Freemasonry and some Mason jumps in and tries to answer questions. Skip jumps into the thread at some point and makes accusations against Masons and Freemasonry. The Mason refutes Skip's claims as someone who is a Mason and knows what the actual teachings and activities of Freemasonry are about. Skip just argues back and forth in endless and fruitless debate.

None of that accomplishes anything. Skip is convinced of his odd views about Freemasonry. Masons know better but can't convince Skip. So the argument never ends.

Skip is upset that I've questioned his motives, that I'm concerned that God will be displeased with his baring false witness, and that he may have to answer to God for that. Yet he has no problem at all accusing Masons and Freemasonry of all kinds of unChristian beliefs and activities in the name of his "ministry."

Again Skip, I'm not playing your game. Despite the fact that ordained Christian clergy of various churches and denominations have told you there is nothing wrong with Freemasonry you persist. Why should any of us get on your silly anti-masonic merry-go-round of arguments, accusations, and counter arguments when all of our training as ordained clergy, theologians, and freemasons as well tell us different?

 

[Skip Sampson]

I would like to know what you think about Chick Publications.

Pls refer to my post #259. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Supreme]

MOD HAT ON

Lets keep things civil here, guys.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[cloudyday2]

Sorry, I have no idea. I can't think of any Masonic phrase that remotely sounds like that.

Thanks anyway. I wondered if Masons whisper weird phrases like that to test the junior Mason's reaction - maybe to see if they have the character to question a superior? Or maybe it was one person's idea of a joke?

 

[smaneck]

Pls refer to my post #259. Cordially, Skip.

Sorry, i missed that one. In regards to Chick Publications your wrote:

I like them, though the one on Masonry contains common errors.

It's kind of scary that anyone actually embraces the theology of Chick Publications.

 

[circuitrider]

Thanks anyway. I wondered if Masons whisper weird phrases like that to test the junior Mason's reaction - maybe to see if they have the character to question a superior? Or maybe it was one person's idea of a joke?

No, never heard of any practice like that. Masonry is pretty collegial. New members who are receiving the degrees aren't ordered around.

 

[Skip Sampson]

It's kind of scary that anyone actually embraces the theology of Chick Publications.

What theology does he embrace, and why do you find it scary? Cordially, Skip.

 

[americanvet]

When I became a Master Mason my mentor (the one who taught me my lesson) informed me that I was equal to every Master Mason. Regardless of who long they had been masons and how short I had. We do our best to treat all Masons the same. Also all of mankind. One of the first lessons in Masonry assisting others, Masons and non-Masons alike.

 

[smaneck]

What theology does he embrace, and why do you find it scary? Cordially, Skip.

I'd call it a theology of hatred. That God sends to hell anyone who doesn't believe their specific narrow theology. And everything else is demonic. They are super nasty when it comes to Catholicism. They are also anti-science, Insist on the King James Bible (ironic in light of their anti-gay stance)

 

[TG123]

Sorry, i missed that one. In regards to Chick Publications your wrote:



It's kind of scary that anyone actually embraces the theology of Chick Publications.

Oh come on, leave Jack alone. His material makes for some of the best comedy you can read on the web!

 

[circuitrider]

I'd call it a theology of hatred. That God sends to hell anyone who doesn't believe their specific narrow theology. And everything else is demonic. They are super nasty when it comes to Catholicism. They are also anti-science, Insist on the King James Bible (ironic in light of their anti-gay stance)

Yep, you named the basic reasons I'd never use them. The Southern Poverty Law Center views Chick Publications as a hate group.

Chick tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TG123]

Yep, you named the basic reasons I'd never use them. The Southern Poverty Law Center views Chick Publications as a hate group.

Chick tract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think that calling them a "hate group" may be going too far. Jack Chick does not advocate violence against anyone, he merely states they will go to hell. That is his belief, and I think he has as much right to express it as does a universalist who claims that hell does not exist.

I'm not a fan of most of Jack Chick's work, and his writings on Catholics, Muslims are exceptionally ignorant. He does though state he writes these things with the hope they find salvation in Jesus.

I do believe all non-Christians need to find salvation in Jesus and we should be willing to preach the Gospel and engage in debate, but misrepresenting others' beliefs like Chick does to Muslims and Catholics is dishonest. I wouldn't say it is hatred.

I'm no fan of sites like </title> <TITLE>Answering Christianity. Islam's Answers To Trinitarian Beliefs. but I recognize it is not a hate site. Debating a religion is not hate speech in my opinion, unless you begin to call for its adherents to be harmed.

Jack Chick in my humble opinion is a moron and a bigot and an ignoramus. However, accusing him of writing "hate literature" is inaccurate.

 

[smaneck]

Oh come on, leave Jack alone. His material makes for some of the best comedy you can read on the web!

Okay, I'll grant you that much. Actually, I've never read him on the web. I'd find his little comic books in laundromats, bus stations, phone booths, etc. Back in the day when I frequented those places.

 

[TG123]

Okay, I'll grant you that much. Actually, I've never read him one web. I'd find his little comic books in laundromats, bus stations, phone booths, etc. Back in the day when I frequented those places.

You HAVEN'T seen his site???

Chick Publications

Enjoy!