Do masons build?

[smaneck]

Refusing to argue with him isn't shunning. No one has the right to make you argue if you don't want to.

Granted, it was your statement here that gives me the willies:

"I'm encouraging people not to engage in discussions with professional anti-masons."

It makes it sound as though you are threatened by him. You surely know Skip's theology will certainly not win any friends in this particular forum anyhow.

 

[Rationalt]

Somewhat Like minded people want to have a group so that they don't have to deal with stupid people on day to day basis.Sounds ok to me .

 

[circuitrider]

Granted, it was your statement here that gives me the willies:

"I'm encouraging people not to engage in discussions with professional anti-masons."

It makes it sound as though you are threatened by him. You surely know Skip's theology will certainly not win any friends in this particular forum anyhow.

No, he isn't much of a threat to Masonry or me. But honestly I can't say that his theology wouldn't win friends on Christian Forums. This is one of the more conservative Christian discussion forums on the internet. He already gets more of a hearing here than he does nearly anywhere else.

This whole forum system has a decidedly conservative slant and it is primarily conservative Christians that are taken in by Skip's views. Mainline Christians pay very little attention to anti-Masonry. Shoot the majority of the officers of the lodge I'm a member of attend the church I pastor.

If you want to argue with him by all means go ahead. I just don't like to see people waste their time.

If you dig around this forum system any time a discussion is started about Freemasonry and some of us who are Masons start to do our best to answer simple questions up pops good old Skip to disrupt threads and discussions. That is his function here.

 

[smaneck]

No, he isn't much of a threat to Masonry or me. But honestly I can't say that his theology wouldn't win friends on Christian Forums. This is one of the more conservative Christian discussion forums on the internet. He already gets more of a hearing here than he does nearly anywhere else.

I'm thinking specifically of the World Religion folder.
After experiencing CARM, T-Web and Catholic Forum, I thought this one wasn't too bad. Are there more liberal ones?

any time a discussion is started about Freemasonry and some of us who are Masons start to do our best to answer simple questions up pops good old Skip to disrupt threads and discussions. That is his function here.

Ah, that explains your frustration. Of course his gripe against the Freemason's is that supposedly you are all work's righteousness. But wouldn't that be a bone which Calvinists have against you Methodists anyhow?

 

[Skip Sampson]

I've already said I don't want to play the game of arguing with you about your anti-masonic baloney and you just can't help trying to pull me into an argument anyway. What's the point?

Mainly that you continue to make charges with no specifics. If you don't intend to discuss, why accuse me?

Notice that we now have testimony from a Mason on this forum who became a Mason because of examining anti-masonry.

Notice that's not what he said. He became interested in Freemasonry because of his grandfather's participation in it. What he said was that he examined the issue from both sides before making his decision to join. Nothing wrong with that.

But there was another side for him to look at, which is the point. My function is to present the factual argument against Freemasonry. I deal with the parts of Freemasonry that GL and other Masonic websites dare not address in public. In the end, a man can see both sides and choose according to what he thinks is right.

This thread is a perfect example. The topic being 'do masons build,' one would have assumed the northeast corner and the spiritual temple would have been raised early on by Masons considering its significance. After all, that is what you are building. That you all failed to do so shows how little of Masonic doctrine you actually wish to be brought out in the open. I see it as my role here to fill in the blanks you leave in your discussions of Freemasonry, using Grand Lodge documentation to show its veracity.

Simpleman accused me of belonging to a cult, but he won't back it up; no one on this thread calls him on it. He denigrates the directors of EMFJ and E5-11, and no one calls him on it. He knowingly violates his own GL doctrine and no Mason publically challenges him on it. You and he both accuse me of errors, but won't back it up and, again, no one else here calls you on it either. It is interesting that so many readers are comfortable with your behavior, but not mine. But no one ever said life is fair, so I deal with it. Personally, I think it has more to do with their perceptions of what I believe than about what I have to say on Freemasonry.

In any case, the market-place of ideas is where viewpoints are tested, and the fact that Masons avoid it like the plague is telling. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

It is Skip's far right fundamentalism that is the religion that only the almighty can cure. I can't talk Skip out of his far right extremist fundamentalism, only God can.

Just what are my beliefs, since you find them so objectionable, aside from my belief that no Christian should join Freemasonry? Since you believe only God can cure me of them, you must certainly know them, so please articulate for the rest.

Let's be clear: you accuse me of having beliefs that God condemns. Time to see if you have the courage to back that up, pastor.

He is well known to many Masons because he spends most of his time online arguing with Masons

As one sees from this thread, there is very little arguing going on, and no reasoned discussions from the Masonic side. Quite simply, they dare not address the case I make, so they don't, preferring instead to snipe from the sidelines. It's who they are and what they do. Cordially, Skip.

 

[circuitrider]

I'm thinking specifically of the World Religion folder.
After experiencing CARM, T-Web and Catholic Forum, I thought this one wasn't too bad. Are there more liberal ones?

Not so much using this kind of software. There are many more liberal forums on Facebook.

Ah, that explains your frustration. Of course his gripe against the Freemason's is that supposedly you are all work's righteousness. But wouldn't that be a bone which Calvinists have against you Methodists anyhow?

I always thought that was an odd criticism of Methodism. Methodist theology is grace based following John Wesley's views about how God's grace works in us and through us in our entire journey of faith. But then we don't believe in the Calvinist doctrine of election whereby someone is either saved or damned by divine fiat. Predestination is not part of our doctrine. We do believe Christians are actually expected by God to live out our faith and do God's will.

As to works righteousness in Freemasonry, the purpose of Freemasonry isn't righteousness (a religious goal) be simply personal growth. Many organizations including the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts are about personal growth. We don't try to call them religions.

Many service organizations such as Rotary and Kiwanis do charitable projects. They don't usually get accused of "works righteousness."

But then I've never accused Skip of actually knowing what Freemasonry is about. He thinks he does. But he looks through the fraternity through a distorted lens of right wing fundamentalist and well worn half truths.

 

[circuitrider]

But there was another side for him to look at, which is the point. My function is to present the factual argument against Freemasonry.

In any case, the market-place of ideas is where viewpoints are tested, and the fact that Masons avoid it like the plague is telling. Cordially, Skip.

That is a red herring. Truth isn't a "market place of ideas" where all ideas and all arguments are equal. There are no "factual arguments against Freemasonry."

It is an idea that the moon is made of green cheese. But it isn't an idea worth considering. Not all ideas are worth consideration when they are glaringly false.

 

[circuitrider]

As one sees from this thread, there is very little arguing going on, and no reasoned discussions from the Masonic side. Quite simply, they dare not address the case I make, so they don't, preferring instead to snipe from the sidelines. It's who they are and what they do. Cordially, Skip.

Again, you aren't going to draw me into you merry go round of fundamentalist world view arguments. I'm not here to win you over Skip or to give credence to your untrue arguments. You can't "make a case" for ideas that are clearly false to anyone who is in the fraternity and knows its working from the inside. You won't accept our giving of the actual facts so what value is there in arguing with you about it over and over? Why waste that kind of time and effort?

May God forgive you for bearing false witness against millions of Christian men who are active in Freemasonry and show you the error of your ways.

 

[Rationalt]

Found some wiki links:

Anti-Masonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opposition to Freemasonry within Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[americanvet]

Found some wiki links:

Anti-Masonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opposition to Freemasonry within Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Add this one to the list:

Taxil hoax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a bonus for the ones who wonder how Masons know who Mr. Sampson is: http://masonicinfo.com/sampson.htm

 

[ViaCrucis]

Reading some of the history of anti-masonry, one gets the impression that as a social phenomenon it seems to share some similarity with anti-Catholicism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[circuitrider]

Reading some of the history of anti-masonry, one gets the impression that as a social phenomenon it seems to share some similarity with anti-Catholicism.

-CryptoLutheran

Among fundamentalist Protestants I'd agree with you. I've run across websites that attack Catholicism and Freemasonry on the same website.

However the Roman Catholic Church also has not been supportive of Freemasonry either though I've known a number of active Roman Catholics who are Freemasons.

 

[smaneck]

Methodist theology is grace based following John Wesley's views about how God's grace works in us and through us in our entire journey of faith. But then we don't believe in the Calvinist doctrine of election whereby someone is either saved or damned by divine fiat. Predestination is not part of our doctrine.

For Calvinists, to deny predestination is to deny the sovereignty of grace.

As to works righteousness in Freemasonry, the purpose of Freemasonry isn't righteousness (a religious goal) be simply personal growth. Many organizations including the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts are about personal growth. We don't try to call them religions.

I think if you live in the world of 'once saved always saved' personal growth may not mean very much.

Many service organizations such as Rotary and Kiwanis do charitable projects. They don't usually get accused of "works righteousness."

I think acts of charity and personal growth are viewed somewhat differently. The assumption is that the 'elect' will do acts of charity but I don't think 'growth' in the spiritual sense is part of their vocabulary.

 

[smaneck]

I would like to know what Skip's take on Chick publications is?

Add this one to the list:

Taxil hoax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's a bonus for the ones who wonder how Masons know who Mr. Sampson is: Anti-Masonic Examples: Skip Sampson

 

[circuitrider]

For Calvinists, to deny predestination is to deny the sovereignty of grace.

That may be the case. It has never made sense to me as a non-calvinist. I've not always been a Methodist but I've always been arminian theologically. I find the idea of predestination and election to note be related to grace as I understand it since it involves God choosing before a persons birth even if they will be saved or condemned.

I think if you live in the world of 'once saved always saved' personal growth may not mean very much.

Once saved, always saved isn't a part of the doctrinal understanding of my Church. We believe God gives us free will.

I think acts of charity and personal growth are viewed somewhat differently. The assumption is that the 'elect' will do acts of charity but I don't think 'growth' in the spiritual sense is part of their vocabulary.

Probably not. And that may make it harder for Calvinist to understand Freemasonry (or even Methodists.) Freemasons believe in the idea of personal growth. Methodists believe that we can grow in God's grace and that becoming more like Jesus is one of the main goals of the faith. Why be saved to remain just as we are?

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't know much about the Masons. My grandfather was in the Scottish type and he was also a Shriner.

So here's my question: At one of the Mason functions, somebody whispered a cryptic statement to my grandfather. It bothered him so that he mentioned it to my grandfather later. It was something as weird as saying "Jesus is dead and God is Bibbledybobbledy". (Sorry I don't remember the exact words. I heard it from my mother and I don't know if she remember the exact words either.

It's always seemed strange to me.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

That may be the case. It has never made sense to me as a non-calvinist. I've not always been a Methodist but I've always been arminian theologically.

Isn't Arminianism just a sub-set of Calvinism? The former was developed out of the latter, right? They share a "common ancestry", theologically speaking, even if they've parted ways at some point.

It's kind of interesting that John Calvin exerted such a lasting and universal influence on anglophone Christianity, whereas Martin Luther's decidedly more humane protestantism never played a huge part in the history of Britain and its colonies.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I would like to know what Skip's take on Chick publications is?

I like them, though the one on Masonry contains common errors. I don't use them in my ministry as they are more of the 'blunt instrument' type of outreach. I also don't use Jim Shaw's testimony due to the lies contained therein, should the question arise. Cordially, Skip.

 

[circuitrider]

I don't know much about the Masons. My grandfather was in the Scottish type and he was also a Shriner.

So here's my question: At one of the Mason functions, somebody whispered a cryptic statement to my grandfather. It bothered him so that he mentioned it to my grandfather later. It was something as weird as saying "Jesus is dead and God is Bibbledybobbledy". (Sorry I don't remember the exact words. I heard it from my mother and I don't know if she remember the exact words either.

It's always seemed strange to me.

Sorry, I have no idea. I can't think of any Masonic phrase that remotely sounds like that.