Why the Rev was written before 70 AD

[shturt678s]

Dan.9:24 70 weeks actually mean 70 heptads. Two Comings of Christ:

1st triad: 1st Coming of Christ

2nd triad: 2nd Coming of Christ.

All future time from the days of Daniel unto the end of time.

Old Jack

 

[Interplanner]

???
In terms of the 70 weeks, what is the 1st triad? Triad of what? weeks? That would be 424 BC.

 

[shturt678s]

???
In terms of the 70 weeks, what is the 1st triad? Triad of what? weeks? That would be 424 BC.

Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptads....."

to restrain the transgression
and to seal up sin
and to make atonement for iniquity;"

I always try to have an accurate Text to work off, and adjust contextually as I move along, ie, finished product above, ie, not that's it's 100% accurate -1st triad. What I found astonishing long ago was that the O.T. only knows of only one appearance of Christ, ie, this happens to be the one exception my friend.

The six statements, ie, I showed the first triad, cover the sum total of the purpose of God with man. Again the first triad summarizing the things that are to be removed, the second triad those that are to be attained.

Hope helps a little,

Jack

 

[Interplanner]

Sorry, I was so used to hearing the "cut off but not for himself" as #7 that I misunderstood there are 2 triads. Got it now.

But now I don't know what you mean about the exception. Apparently you see a 2nd coming dimension in the 2nd triad? There are reasons against that. Good theological ones from Romans and Hebrews, and also, "seal up" has the sense of fulfill in Daniel, anticipating that the Gospel events would fulfill all of the OT visions and prophecy.

 

[shturt678s]

Sorry, I was so used to hearing the "cut off but not for himself" as #7 that I misunderstood there are 2 triads. Got it now.

But now I don't know what you mean about the exception. Apparently you see a 2nd coming dimension in the 2nd triad? There are reasons against that. Good theological ones from Romans and Hebrews, and also, "seal up" has the sense of fulfill in Daniel, anticipating that the Gospel events would fulfill all of the OT visions and prophecy.

"And to seal up" Sealing here more done for the purpose of fastening so that a thing may be securely kept. This usage appears in Isa.8:6, and also in Deut.32:34. In our passage this is to be done witht the sin of the wicked: it is to be securely kept, locked up, as it were, and not permitted to roam about at random and do its nefarious work. This involves also that sin is on record as the condemnation of the evildoer.

Dan.9:24,
"o bring in everlasting righteousness
and to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the Most Holy."

The sum total of the purposes of God with man, ie, the perfect consummation of the Messiah's work that will be achieved when the second coming, and the judgment have transpired. The first triad summarizing the things that are to be removed, the second triad those that are to be attained."

My point: God's works are never just nagative (1st triad). A positive good is set up in place of the evil (wicked) that has been disposed of. Summed up in a comprehensive statement, this good thing is descried thus: "To bring everlasting righteousness." This is without a doubt the imputed righteousness which is not natuarally to be found among men, and so God must "bring in." Ie, this righteousness, or the Messiah who accomplishes it, was the treasure above all treasures that was most eaterly longed for by the O.T. saints.

Anything to be refuted? Good job my friend

Jack

btw comports with v.25 unfolding the successive stages by which this goal will be realized. :o

 

[AJCServant]

To help with any confusions on this question the answer to the following posts can be found in any history book of the Roman Leaders who started with Julius Caesar from July 100 BC to 15 March 44 BC.

(reprinted from CF by "ASIC" from a year ago)


2 - The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. Roman emperors are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero. Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while, Galba, 6 months who was the seventh.

Hello There.

Is Augustus not the first Emperor?

List of Roman emperors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks Lismore. I pasted this from "ASCI," another participant. I hadn't noticed.

What can be found in most every history book is that the Roman Empire's Caesar-leader-emperors started with Julius Caesar who lived from July 100 BC until his assassination on the “Ides-of-March” on 15 March 44 BC, and therefore during that period of the “Julian dynasty” Nero was the 6 th leader of the Roman Empire.


In Jesus love,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

2 Timothy 2:15-16 - - (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Peter3:10&18 - - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless ones and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

 

[AJCServant]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread “ready” for the blessed hope to occur today by having prepared their heart and soul and body and their surrounding culture for that glorious event?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AND OR[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread proclaiming the good news of God's love for prodigal sinners?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Titus 2:13 - - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 3:10&18 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]error[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the lawless [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ones[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and fall from your secure position[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]

 

[shturt678s]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread “ready” for the blessed hope to occur today by having prepared their heart and soul and body and their surrounding culture for that glorious event?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AND OR[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread proclaiming the good news of God's love for prodigal sinners?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Titus 2:13 - - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 3:10&18 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]error[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the lawless [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ones[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and fall from your secure position[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]

Sorry sir, ie, Rom.1:16 had already made a paradigm shift to Rom.1:18 even before we were even thought about. :o If Rev. written before 70 A.D. then Rom.1:16 still in effect, however if written after 70 A.D. then IIThess.2:10b-12 coming to pass at this moment, eg, Rev.8:7-9:21; 13:14b.

Old Jack

 

[AJCServant]

Sorry sir, ie, Rom.1:16 had already made a paradigm shift to Rom.1:18 even before we were even thought about. :o If Rev. written before 70 A.D. then Rom.1:16 still in effect, however if written after 70 A.D. then IIThess.2:10b-12 coming to pass at this moment, eg, Rev.8:7-9:21; 13:14b.

Old Jack

Romans 1:16-18 - - 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 - - 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 8:7-9 - - 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 9:18 - - 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Revelation 9:21 - - 21 neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 13:14 - - 14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

<><
?
<><

 

[ebedmelech]

<><
?
<><

The point Jack makes is that which Psalm 19:1 makes:
The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

The meaning being that well before Christ came with the gospel, God has given enough revelation in the creation to prove his existence. Creation is a gospel too!

The good news that earth has a Creator...all we need do is seek Him!

That's what I *think* Jack means.

Now...the flip side is that 70 AD or not...that always remains true. We have enough "general revelation" in creation to know there is a God, and even today, if they seek Him...they will find Him.

 

[AJCServant]

The point Jack makes is that which Psalm 19:1 makes:
The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

The meaning being that well before Christ came with the gospel, God has given enough revelation in the creation to prove his existence. Creation is a gospel too!

The good news that earth has a Creator...all we need do is seek Him!

That's what I *think* Jack means.

Now...the flip side is that 70 AD or not...that always remains true. We have enough "general revelation" in creation to know there is a God, and even today, if they seek Him...they will find Him.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><
For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose &#8220;heart&#8221; is &#8220;perfect&#8221; toward him. - - 2 Chronicles 16:9[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


After looking at "Old Jack's" scriptures that I just edit-posted into my last post, perhaps we will all then agree that what you are explaining is NOT what Old Jack was attempting to teach a &#8220;novice&#8221; who might ever read this thread.


I continually pray that more "Christians" would be taught to resist the same evil-spirit that possessed Calvin when he had Michael Servetus burnt at the stake for disagreeing with his demonically inspired doctrines.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]See <>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus<> [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This is our battle in our Laodicean and spiritually indolent culture in these perilous last days, that is not with flesh and blood but with Beelzebub who &#8220;encourages&#8221; us to be Laodicean and fatalistic and arrogant as most all of Calvin's zealous followers have become, which is the same evil-spirit that overwhelmed and inhabited most of Jerusalem whenever it was destroyed via the holocaust of 70AD, after-which these evil hordes were "hopefully" then put into chains until the day of their judgment. [+][/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][+*: Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. & 2Peter 2:4 Putting them in chains ...& Jude 1:6 Bound with everlasting chains][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I can easily infallibly say that not one of Calvin's zealous but unconverting Laodicean followers will have ever been &#8220;chosen&#8221; to be joint-heirs alongside Jesus when He comes in the clouds, since they were taught by their own hardened and evil hearts of unbelief to depart from the living God to NOT fulfill the "Golden Rule" OR the "Great Commission" towards the cast-out and impoverished in our world, since in their view this was God's job not theirs; and so they were taught by Calvin's spirit to sit idly-by while Jesus' inheritances were being stolen, killed and destroyed throughout the earth by Beelzebub's wiles working in concert with their own spiritual indolence, ignorance and naivete.[/FONT][/FONT]


In Jesus love,
A Servant of Jesus Christ
AJCServant
John 10&15&17 & Revelation 21

2 Timothy 2:15-16 - - (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2 Peter 3:10&18 - - But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless ones and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

 

[AJCServant]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread &#8220;ready&#8221; for the blessed hope to occur today by having prepared their heart and soul and body and their surrounding culture for that glorious event?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AND OR[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread proclaiming the good news of God's immeasurable agape-love for prodigal sinners?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Titus 2:13 - - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 3:10&18 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]error[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the lawless [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ones[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and fall from your secure position[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]

 

[shturt678s]

Romans 1:16-18 - - 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 - - 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 8:7-9 - - 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 9:18 - - 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Revelation 9:21 - - 21 neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 13:14 - - 14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

<><
?
<><

Rom.1:16 Gospel and salvation are correlatives, so also are gospel and believing the a revelation of righteousness in the gospel, which is salvation and life; however v.18, the other revelation is of his righteous wrath from heaven, which is damnation and death, eg, IIThess.2:10-12; Rev.8:7-9:21. Church economics must put forth the former to keep business going; however the latter keeps salvation going. :o

Rev.13:14b is about world wide pretentious worship in the chruches today for sure; however there are valid Christians in these settings of course.

Old Jack hoping I'm one of the valid ones?

 

[shturt678s]

The point Jack makes is that which Psalm 19:1 makes:
The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.

The meaning being that well before Christ came with the gospel, God has given enough revelation in the creation to prove his existence. Creation is a gospel too!

Don't get me wrong, ie, really appreciate you and I'm not known to be lucid thus lays on me for incoherency. Before Gen.3:15 it was "natural theology" and no gospel effected through repentance.

The good news that earth has a Creator...all we need do is seek Him!

That's what I *think* Jack means.

Now...the flip side is that 70 AD or not...that always remains true. We have enough "general revelation" in creation to know there is a God, and even today, if they seek Him...they will find Him.

Seek the Kingdom through a genuine repentance and faith kind of "theology".

Old Jack

 

[ebedmelech]

Don't get me wrong, ie, really appreciate you and I'm not known to be lucid thus lays on me for incoherency. Before Gen.3:15 it was "natural theology" and no gospel effected through repentance.

That's not making sense Jack. Genesis 3:15 is in concert with "the curse" which comes about because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Therefore there was no "theology" whatsoever, because Adam and Eve were in relationship to God in a perfect world. Where are you going there?

Seek the Kingdom through a genuine repentance and faith kind of "theology".

Old Jack

No doubt, but understand in the seeking, God sees the heart and answers...ala Cornelious.

As the passage says "If you seek with all your heart"...

 

[shturt678s]

That's not making sense Jack. Genesis 3:15 is in concert with "the curse" which comes about because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Therefore there was no "theology" whatsoever, because Adam and Eve were in relationship to God in a perfect world. Where are you going there?

Rom.1:20 There was a "natural theology" of course prior to Gen.3:15. There was a little issue regarding Adam's and Eve's relationship with God at Gen.3:6 before 3:15 of course. Let's also not forget the victory part regarding the seed of woman also at 3:15.

No doubt, but understand in the seeking, God sees the heart and answers...ala Cornelious.

As the passage says "If you seek with all your heart"...

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[AJCServant]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread &#8220;ready&#8221; for the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]blessed hope[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] to occur today by having prepared their heart and soul and body and their surrounding culture for that glorious event?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]AND OR[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Is anyone reading this thread proclaiming [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the good news of God's immeasurable agape-love for prodigal sinners[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]?[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Titus 2:13 - - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 13:13-26 (NIV)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Parable of the Sower Explained[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><13 This is why I speak to them in parables: &#8220;Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: &#8220;&#8216;You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><15 For this people&#8217;s heart has become calloused (hardened); they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn (and be converted), and I would heal them.&#8217; <>< [Isaiah 6:9,10][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<>-<><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah 29:13-14 - - Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by (demonic) doctrines-of-men: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<>-<><[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Isaiah[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 42:1-4 - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]he shall bring forth [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]judgment unto truth[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set (righteous) judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Peter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 3:10&18 -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. . . . Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]error[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] of the lawless [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ones[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and fall from your secure position[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Timothy 2:15-16 - - (15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (16) But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness. (ESV) (KJV) (16) But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.[/FONT]

For thus saith the Lord . . . Break up your fallow ground, and sow "not" among thorns. - - Jeremiah 4:3

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]<><> <><[/FONT]

 

[ebedmelech]

Rom.1:20 There was a "natural theology" of course prior to Gen.3:15. There was a little issue regarding Adam's and Eve's relationship with God at Gen.3:6 before 3:15 of course. Let's also not forget the victory part regarding the seed of woman also at 3:15.

Romans 1:20 starts with creation! I would not call that "natural theology", because there is no theology there. The passage is telling us this is the creation, a creation that God Himself records for us as "very good" in Genesis 1:31:
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

That's just "what it is" Jack..."very good"! I would think it is your purpose to call it "natural theology", but I would say I don't agree...and would call it nothing more than "the essence of creation before sin entered". It is not a theology "per se", it is the "condition of creation" prior to the fall. My assertion would be that it is sustained by God Himself!

We know Adam and Eve were eternal beings based on Romans 5:12-14, where death enters the world because of Adam's transgression! Genesis 3:6 leads us to the protoevangel" of 3:15.

I won't quibble further though Jack...I just don't think we have a natural theology there, as much as we have the condition of creation before "the fall"...and God called it very good...

Thank you again,

Old Jack

"As iron sharpens iron..."

 

[shturt678s]

Romans 1:20 starts with creation! I would not call that "natural theology", because there is no theology there.

Hey, you could be correct, ie, let's look at this again: Rom.1:20: "Natural thology": The study of God and religious belief. The visible things of God's creation reveal to man's mind the invisible things regarding Him objectively here.

It's done with the mind or reason by means of a mental act, one that is not abstract speculation, but sane and sober thought on the things made by God, all of which advertise His existence and His power and divinity, ie, includes all men who have ever lifed and brings out the thought that in the things which Godmade all men have ever had a great revelation concerning God.

We see the things made, see them with our physical eyes, but they convey more to us than their own undeniable existence; having a mind, by mental perception and by means of the visible we fully see the invisible, God's omnipotence and divineness. I have to conclude again this is "natural theology" which is universal in scope, eg, Acts 17:24-29..

I tried even to refute myself but unable to my friend. As you're unable to accept naos = sanctuary and ieron = temple, the same here and will have to also let this one go to. I thank you again and agape being refutable, however not with this one.

The passage is telling us this is the creation, a creation that God Himself records for us as "very good" in Genesis 1:31:
31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

That's just "what it is" Jack..."very good"! I would think it is your purpose to call it "natural theology", but I would say I don't agree...and would call it nothing more than "the essence of creation before sin entered". It is not a theology "per se", it is the "condition of creation" prior to the fall. My assertion would be that it is sustained by God Himself!

We know Adam and Eve were eternal beings based on Romans 5:12-14, where death enters the world because of Adam's transgression! Genesis 3:6 leads us to the protoevangel" of 3:15.

I won't quibble further though Jack...I just don't think we have a natural theology there, as much as we have the condition of creation before "the fall"...and God called it very good...

"As iron sharpens iron..."

Old Jack, and sorry just read your last and

 

[Bible2]

AJCServant said in post 117:

Is anyone reading this thread “ready” for the blessed hope to occur today by having prepared their heart and soul and body and their surrounding culture for that glorious event?

Jesus' glorious appearing in Titus 2:13 is his 2nd coming, when he will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30). And the blessed hope in Titus 2:13 is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

AJCServant said in post 117:

Is anyone reading this thread proclaiming the good news of God's immeasurable agape-love for prodigal sinners?

God indeed loves prodigal sinners (Luke 15:18-24), but not all of them. For God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known to both humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.