Saved Only by Grace?

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
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Paul has a motivation to deal with 'keeping faith and a good conscience' or 'holding faith and a good conscience' (ESV). In context this is faith in the prophecies (apostolic teaching?) he had received.

What had Hymenaeus and Alexander done to 'shipwreck' their faith. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning of this word from apwthew as 'reject, repudiate' (1957:102). Therefore Lenski's commentary, based on the Greek, concludes that
The consequence for Hymenaeus and Alexander was that Paul has them 'handed over to Satan'. What this means exactly has been the cause of much debate. However, it seems evident that these two men no longer have a good conscience and faith, so it seems that Paul means that these two are '"put back into Satan's sphere," outside the church and the fellowship of God's people.... Paul expects by such an "excommunication" they will "be caught not to blaspheme"' (Gordon D Fee 1988:59).

What 'blaspheme' means here is not certain but there are hints in context. In 1:13 Paul says of his life before Christ, 'formerly I was a blasphemer' and in 6:4 he states that 'slander' (ESV) or 'malicious talk' (NIV) that come out of 'a different doctrine' (ESV) or 'false doctrines' (NIV). However the word is blasphemiai (i.e. blasphemies). This is from a list of what happens as a result of false teachers who had 'an unhealthy craving for controversy' (6:4 ESV).

Thus handing over to Satan seems to be an action of excommunication because they had rejected God's grace for salvation and had pursued the arguments of the false teachers. It seems that Timothy was in Ephesus to deal with the false doctrine that was being perpetrated by false teachers and this was leading people away from the faith.

Oz

So you don't think that they were apostate, right?
 
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OzSpen

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It still says nothing of them losing their salvation.
Yes it does! That's the meaning of 'shipwrecked' as I have indicated in #39, based on the Greek exegesis:

What had Hymenaeus and Alexander done to 'shipwreck' their faith. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning of this word from apwthew as 'reject, repudiate' (1957:102). Therefore Lenski's commentary, based on the Greek, concludes that
they got so far away from the apostolic prophecies that they did even what is here stated regarding their conscience and their faith. Paul himself had dealt with two of them, and when he held up to them the prophecies, i. e., the apostolic gospel teaching, and thereby tried to reach their conscience he found that they had actually thrust all good conscience away and had thereby lost their faith altogether. The true gospel teaching no longer made an impression on them, it had been smothered by their myths, etc (1937:532-533).
Faith that is shipwrecked is faith that has been repudiated, rejected. It couldn't be clearer, based on the Greek etymology.

Oz
 
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Hammster

Psalm 144:1
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False!

They had rejected, repudiated their faith. That's what the Greek word means!

Oz

Ah. So Paul really wasn't concerned for them. That whole teaching them not to blaspheme was just for show.
 
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Hammster

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That's a red herring logical fallacy.

No, it's not. But that is your line when you have no rebuttal.

If their salvation was truly lost (an impossibility), then Paul wouldn't be concerned about them being taught not to blaspheme. And he wouldn't have even worried about turning them over to Satan for any reason.
 
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OzSpen

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No, it's not. But that is your line when you have no rebuttal.

If their salvation was truly lost (an impossibility), then Paul wouldn't be concerned about them being taught not to blaspheme. And he wouldn't have even worried about turning them over to Satan for any reason.
Your charge against me is false. When you don't address what I write, and give another line to divert away from what I wrote, that's a red herring. That is what you did.

Oz
 
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Hammster

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Your charge against me is false. When you don't address what I write, and give another line to divert away from what I wrote, that's a red herring. That is what you did.

Oz

I did address what you wrote. In fact, I exposed your flaw. If that's a red herring, so be it.
 
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OzSpen

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I did address what you wrote. In fact, I exposed your flaw. If that's a red herring, so be it.
Your response was a red herring because this is what I stated:
They had rejected, repudiated their faith. That's what the Greek word means!
You did not respond to that specific content, so you used a red herring.

Oz
 
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Hammster

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Your response was a red herring because this is what I stated:

You did not respond to that specific content, so you used a red herring.

Oz

And here we go again. I'll tell you what. When you are done playing silly games with these debates, let me know.
 
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OzSpen

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And here we go again. I'll tell you what. When you are done playing silly games with these debates, let me know.
I'm being accurate with what you do with some of my statements in these debates. When you use logical fallacies or other tactics that I observe, in my integrity I'll call them for what I see you doing.

Oz
 
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Hammster

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I'm being accurate with what you do with some of my statements in these debates. When you use logical fallacies or other tactics that I observe, in my integrity I'll call them for what I see you doing.

Oz

Like I said...
 
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Hammster

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MOD HAT ON
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Some posts have been deleted in a clean up. As a reminder, you may not post against the Baptist Statement of Faith, OT the site SoF.
MOD HAT OFF
 
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OzSpen

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Kayla,

i think this is turning into nothing more than a pointless argument, you guys obviously aren't going to change your mind on anything...
How would you like me to change my mind? I'm truly and honestly open to a change of mind if I can be shown from the Scriptures that I'm wrong in my interpretation.

I'd appreciate your advice on what my change of mind would look like from the beliefs and actions you would like me to have.

Sincerely, Oz
 
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KaylaHansa

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I'm not telling anyone to change their mind... but it looks like to me that you guys are more of arguing than discussing the subject. But whatever I wanted to bring up the instance when Jesus said to cut off your hand if it causes you sin because it is better to enter heaven with one hand than to go to hell... it seems that according to this verse sin can get you into hell? Again, I am confused...
 
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OzSpen

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I'm not telling anyone to change their mind... but it looks like to me that you guys are more of arguing than discussing the subject. But whatever I wanted to bring up the instance when Jesus said to cut off your hand if it causes you sin because it is better to enter heaven with one hand than to go to hell... it seems that according to this verse sin can get you into hell? Again, I am confused...
Kayla,

Why don't you quote the verse and do some exposition of it to show us what you think it means. Do you think it is telling a Christian that he/she can commit sin after coming to faith in Christ and that that sin will cause the person to lose his/her Christian faith and at death he/she will go to hell?

I look forward to your exposition of the text. Honestly, I do look forward to your input. I agree that sometimes we can get argumentative. Your freshness is needed in this discussion.

Oz
 
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lismore

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So my questions is, how much works do yo have to have with your faith in order to be justified?



I'm confused...

Salvation is by grace, but there are crowns mentioned in the bible, given only to some believers, for example:


James 1:12
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Some believers will persevere under trial and will receive this crown from the Lord. Others will not persevere, they will still be saved because salvation is by grace. But when crowns are awarded they will not receive one.

:)
 
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