Why Do So Many Want To Be Raptured?

[ancientsoul]

"The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation"


Not true

Revelation's visions are not presented in strict positional chronological order

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

thought i'd wade through this list of verses ... a couple here ... and a couple there ...

Revelation 3:10 ... the message to the church at Philadelphia ... Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL the world to try them that dwell upon the earth.

companion verses ...

2 Peter 2:9 ... false prophets and teachers ...The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished:

Psalm 34:17 ... the Lord hears the righteous ... The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth and delivereth them out of ALL their troubles.

Luke 2:1 ... this is a verse i see come up over and over in prophecy ... it is the order to tax (try or test) the whole world ... no one goes untested ... And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that ALL the world should be taxed. ... this order was never undone, as i understand ...

Isaiah 24:17 ... the judgement upon the earth ... Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

the Lord delivereth those who believe and trust Him ... belief and faith, the requirement ...

Revelation 4:4 ... around God's throne ... And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 11:16 ... the seventh trumpet ... And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God.

Revelation 3:4,5 ... the message to the church of sardis ... Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

these in Revelation 4:4 are overcomers ... nothing about being ones who were 'flown away' ...

Revelation 5:10 ... and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign ON THE EARTH.

comapnion verses ... Rev 3:10 ... posted above ...

Nehemiah 8:10 ... Ezra reads and explains the law ... Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the Lord is your strength.

 

[zeke37]

I see a number of posters on this thread who do not want the Lord to keep them from His hour of trial and judgment by making them immortal if they are alive just before it comes

well, post trib believes that we are kept from the hour of temptation
but not by being removed from the planet before the trib.

There is something very wrong with their desire

I would say that wanting to flee the planet
instead of stay working in the field witnessing for Him
during the very time when He needs u the most
is the very wrong desire, but hey, that's just me

Do not listen to this song of the devil .... he has a motive

yep.
Jesus said repeatedly that the false one comes first
to deceive you if it be possible.

but your camp teaches opposite that

 

[Time Watcher]

Well post-tribers are will see differently if alive when the Lord's hour of trial begins

Getting killed by the wiles of tribulation, or by the beast and having you head cut off is not being "kept" from the tribulation period

You need to read Revelation's account more carefully than you have .... and unless you are one of the sealed 144000 of the children of Israel .... you will have no protection

If you enter as a pretender you will be subjected to terror and violence that you may not be able to absorb .... or maybe you will worship the beast and still lose in the end

Don't by this reversed song of the devil .... he has motive which he intends to exercise for destroying all humans on the earth at the time in one way or the other

 

[apple2345]

Good morning everyone. I have a new question after reading through some of the more recent comments. Based off of the better understanding that I have of Joel 2, and my desire to be part of the group that repents and saves Zion . I am wondering if we aren't getting preoccupied with eschatology debates and neglecting what God says we are to do in Joel 2:12-13 NIV

“Even now,” declares the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning.” 13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity."


Who wants to volunteer to say,



“Spare your people, Lord.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?” (Joel 2:17 NIV).



Can I get an Amen!


Lets stop talking so much and start doing!

 

[Time Watcher]

This is a forum section set for end time exegesis

So you are going to get discussion from all corners of the box

Unfortunately because of this, there are going to be disputes and argumentations

.... just the way it is in today's confusing world

I will address your question with regard to the Lord's army of His ecclesia

Hold on

 

[apple2345]

This is a forum section set for end time exegesis

So you are going to get discussion from all corners of the box

Unfortunately because of this, there are going to be disputes and argumentations

.... just the way it is in today's confusing world

I will address your question with regard to the Lord's army of His ecclesia

Hold on

See, this is exactly what I mean. All this prophecy seriousness just seems to take the fun out of people. You couldn't have just Amen.

Why for should we hold on. It is always a good day to join together in repentance.

 

[Time Watcher]

The Lord's prophetic word is of extreme significance because it authenticates His communication of the scriptures as truth .... those who ignore, manipulate, or do not understand this can be drawn off by false teaching [2 Peter 1:16-21]

The Lord did not give His propheticword for naught and has called some to convey it to others for a witness to the unsaved, and for reassurance to the membes of His eclesia .... I am a prophecy teacher and this what I do

.... it sounds like you are a bit opposing, but I will answer your question anyway

You are among the few who connect Joel 2:1-11 with these passages of scripture [Zechariah 14:4-5; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 19:11]

Many have no idea what is contained in Joel and most do not spend much time in the OT today

The primary and overall focus of the prophet is about the mortal end time remnant of national Israel …. and not to the Gentile component of His ecclesia

The Lord speaks to Israel’s past intransigence toward Him and at the same time tells of His intent to save a remnant part of the nation to participate in the restoration of their kingdom which He has delayed because of the nation’s rejection of Him as Messiah and King …. this condition will change in part during the coming time of tribulation for them [the time of “Jacob’s” trouble]

So Joel is really about national Israel in the tribulation and those mortals who will turn to the Lord during the period, and it is these who will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom restored upon the earth

He is asking for the remnant to prepare for this great and terrible day of the Lord and particularly with regard to Armageddon at the end of the 70th week decreed for them

However, His army of His immortal ecclesia described in verses 2:2-11 consists of not only of the saved immortals of Israel, but also the immortal Gentiles …. it is this supernatural immortal army that will be with the Lord as He moves to route the armies of Satan’s beast and followers who will be occupying Israel at the time

He will start at Bozarah [Jordan wilderness east of Jerusalem] and drive the beast’s armies all the way to the borders of Nimrod in the northern regions of Iraq today destroying them along the way [Isaiah 63; Ezekiel 38; 39; Joel 2:20; Micah 5:5-6; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

It is the immortals of His pre-tribulation ecclesia who will be with Him to contend against Satan’s beast and human followers at Armageddon [Joel 2:1-11]

 

[zeke37]

"but u are saying that it never happened to begin with"

You are misquoting me .... prove out your statement .... copy and past what I said ... and don't change anything

I thot that's what you meant by the following...

The dream is false by the way .... the only true prophets with inspired "dreams" are the Bible prophets
​

MacDonald had the vision [it is on the Internet] .... I am saying that it was not from the Lord and that it has been used by reprobate men for nefarious purposes

I am not sure if it was from the Lord or not
but surely men have used it for nefarious purposes
of course, it's pre trib teachers that do so, not post trib

So do not tell that I said "it never happened" .... you responded with this remark and I know why you did it

why?
I made a mistake in interpretation when u claim it is false and a lie
I even followed the post with your quote and my understanding of your quote
I was actually seeking confirmation about your position,
because I had never heard that before.
no biggie, my bad.

but u r still the first to say that Darby never used her dream in his dogma

People claim visions all of the time and make false prophecies .... the Lord is finished with what He wants humans to know and all of this has already been revealed in scripture .... anything else is phony [2 Peter 1:16-21]

"On" the last day is another a ruse of the pre-tribulation crowd

The word "on" is never used .... always "in" or "at" implying a time frame within which a certain events will take place

at the last day
I challenge you to find a post where I say ON the last day
I make a specific point to say AT the last day.
same meaning to me anyway.

The last day of the Lord's coming is a period of time described in scripture in which many events will take place including resurrections at the beginning and during, but not after those days of the tribulation .... there is no post-tribulation resurrection of anyone ... the gatherings of Matthew 24:29-31; and 25:31-46 are not resurrections

elect gathered from heaven and earth(Mar13)
AFTER the tribulation of those days

Your mentors have really duped you ...

u don't know my mentors

you should be familiar with this biblical use of wording "in" or "at" the last day .... the post-tribulation teacher inserts their "on" the last day to deceive others .... changing the Lord's word is a dangerous thing to do

most do it in ignorance, because it means just that anyway.
ON or AT is not the issue, THE LAST DAY is.

Read you Bible and pay more attention to what you read

If you don't believe me find out for yourself that "on" the last day is never used in any of the related scriptures that you speak of for your post tribulation "rapture"

at the last day
I challenge you to find a post where I say ON the last day
I make a point to say AT the last day.
same meaning to me anyway.

This idea will never happen .... if it did there would be no surviving believing mortals left on the earth to enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... but there will be [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Ezekiel 36; Matthew 24:29-31; Revelation 20:1-3]

my view is that at His Coming and Appearing (post trib of course),
He changes everyone not just the elect, to be incorruptible, like the angels.

but only the elect (raptured) are BOTH incorruptible AND immortal tho

He divides the elect Christians from everyone else by rapturing them (gathers/seizes)

the remaining now changed incorruptible folk, fall into two main categories,

bad guys who hurt the earth, and the rest

these rest, aren't bad guys but aren't elect either...
included among them are imo all the seduced/deceived Christians,
that fell for the lies of the false Christ and worshiped him as Jesus/God

these still have a shot at being immortal, refined in the Millennium...
if they overcome Satan's last stand after the Millennial refinement,
they get into the camp of the Saints at final judgement


it is my view that all flesh, people and animal,
is changed at His Coming per 1Cor15.
flesh and blood cannot abide in His presence when He comes in Glory in His Kingdom


so the Millennial kingdom is populated by the
then changed-incorruptible folk who still need refinement (non raptured folk)
being ruled over by the changed immortal Christian elect, who don't need refinement (raptured folk)

And I have to say to you that no pre-tribulation teacher would ever use McDonald's vision to support a pre-tribulation "rapture" as you tell

LOLOLOLOLOLOOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLOOOOOOOLLLLLOOLLLLOOLL
ask pre tribbers right here at CF....

start a thread, put a poll on it...see what u come up with

.... the vision clearly has the "church" going through the tribulation

ya and?
the bible says the same thing.
but pre tribbers cant see it.

Your thought process in this matter is not even rational

I am also going to tell you that after analyzing your rebuttals, I would normally not even respond to you .... no good purpose

cop out
and I know that the very vast majority of pre tribbers
hold that MM's dream was an inspired pre trib rapture vision

for u to claim that they don't, is nonsense and dishonest

However, there are those on the forum who will look on and they will have an opportunity to learn the truth about many things .... and they will decide for themselves

you are fooling yourself.
u really need to check into Darby and MMacdonald's dream more
check out how it is indeed used by pre tribbers to support pre trib
go to pre trib sites and authors works, seriously.

there are threads about it right here on CF with plenty of pre tribbers piping in.


out of the 100's of pre tribbers that I have conversed with,
you are the ONLY ONE that says her dream is a post trib conspiracy

the ONLY ONE EVER

you'd figure that a few other pre tribbers might have picked up on that too, over the years
and it'd be old news

but na, u r the first EVER on this site,
the LARGEST CHRISTIAN FORUM in the world
to say what u have said about it. EVER!

lol..

 

[apple2345]

I LOVE jude 1:14-15. That was awesome. And I get it about being serious about prophecy and all. But, I still think that it doesn't mean it can't be fun sometimes, which in some respects is the essence of a verse like jude 1:14-15. It sounds a lot like a picture of judges on steroids with a few Samson's, a couple gideon's, and some deborah's running around. They had character you know, to make a good story with that had a lesson in it for all of us today. That what I picture when the prophecy is fulfilled some great entertaining characters.

 

[zeke37]

Well post-tribers are will see differently if alive when the Lord's hour of trial begins

I don't doubt the Lord sends that hour,
as it sets things up the way He wants it at the end
but that hour is NOT the WRATH that we as believers
are promised to be kept from experiencing

His wrath follows the trib,
and falls on those that fail it, by following the beast.
folks that believe what Jesus said, elect, wont follow the false one,
because they know not to look for Christ here or there or anywhere.

He's Coming here in the biggest moment ever.
all things will change, including all flesh

so falling for the deception of the false Christ
is not a possibility for the real elect
because they know from 1Thes4:13-1Thes5:11
that the rapture takes place at the last day, the last day of the trib,
right after Christ brings the dead believers from heaven
and raises them here incorruptible to live on earth again as promised
ie. the resurrection of all that the Father gave the Son. John 6/11.



but for the rest, the ones that claim Christ but don't love the truth,
those will fail the trib test, face the wrath of God,
and be refined in the Mill if they truly love the Lord.

Getting killed by the wiles of tribulation, or by the beast

everyone interprets scripture differently
protection is promised for the elect. Luk21, Rev12,

and having you head cut off is not being "kept" from the tribulation period

the beheaded of Rev20:4 are those of the past under Rome.
JTB being the most notable.
the word AND is a figure of speech used, in this case,
to seperate the subjects like in Gen1 days of creation
AND, AND, AND,

so in Rev20:4 we have more than one group represented.
we have the martyred prophets that died for God's Word
AND we have the martyred Christians that died for Christ
AND we have the elect alive at the end, who don't take the mark of the beast

the AC is not going to be lopping off heads.

You need to read Revelation's account more carefully than you have .... and unless you are one of the sealed 144000 of the children of Israel .... you will have no protection

ok. I believe the 144k are Christian elect....so no issue there

If you enter as a pretender you will be subjected to terror and violence that you may not be able to absorb .... or maybe you will worship the beast and still lose in the end

pretender?
bro, if u believe the real Christ comes first to rapture you,
then u are already deceived
I cant take a word u say seriously with regards to end time bible prophesy

Don't by this reversed song of the devil .... he has motive which he intends to exercise for destroying all humans on the earth at the time in one way or the other

and his plan to do so includes pretending to be Jesus
and seducing as many of "us" as he can

pre trib is the set up for it

 

[zeke37]

Good morning everyone. I have a new question after reading through some of the more recent comments. Based off of the better understanding that I have of Joel 2, and my desire to be part of the group that repents and saves Zion . I am wondering if we aren't getting preoccupied with eschatology debates and neglecting what God says we are to do in Joel 2:12-13 NIV

“Even now,” declares the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning.” 13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity."


Who wants to volunteer to say,



“Spare your people, Lord.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?” (Joel 2:17 NIV).



Can I get an Amen!


Lets stop talking so much and start doing!

 

[interpreter]

I don't know why so many want to be raptured. Jesus never mentioned a rapture.

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 136:

The dead in Christ [those asleep in death] will be resurrected and taken up with the changed living believers at the same time [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]

Are you referring to the idea of "soul sleep"? If so, only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 137:

And His hour of trial did not come up on the first century church, this judgment will come upon a world of unbelievers and is still pending at this time [Revelation 6:12-17]

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 138:

Revelation's visions are not presented in strict positional chronological order

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 3:10, see post 134.

Regarding Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 5:10, the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 7:9-17, note that it doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 11:1, the temple there is the same future, 3rd-earthly temple as Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, the outer court of which temple will eventually be given to the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2), the same Gentiles who will later tread the earthly Jerusalem under foot for 42 literal months (Revelation 11:2).

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 13:6, those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 13:6 will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 17:14 and Revelation 19:1-9, see post 133.

Time Watcher said in post 138:

The view of His ecclesia is seen several times dwelling with the Lord in the state of immortality just before, during, and after the tribulation

These verses are repetitive as the narrative moves forward giving more details of is ecclesia [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 20:4 [those on thrones]]

Regarding Revelation 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the future millennium on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10), when, for example, the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the first resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the first resurrection will be the bodily resurrection of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the first resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the first resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao, G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the first resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 139:

This "woman" is the nation of Israel, past and future .... the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel [Genesis 37:9; Revelation 7:1-8]

Regarding Genesis 37:9-10, it isn't being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Time Watcher said in post 139:

This "woman" is the nation of Israel, past and future .... the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel [Genesis 37:9; Revelation 7:1-8]

Regarding Revelation 7:1-8, the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8 (during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24). They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 144,000 can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church, for all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they're from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Time Watcher said in post 139:

The "church" did not give birth to the Lord, and the "church" will not flee into the wilderness ...

In Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the same future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up bodily to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

Time Watcher said in post 139:

... it is a believing remnant of Israel in the land who will flee from Satan's beast at the end of this present age [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

Regarding Zechariah 14:4-5, it refers to only the unsaved elect Jews in Jerusalem fleeing the city at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-5).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 139:

... it is a believing remnant of Israel in the land who will flee from Satan's beast at the end of this present age [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

Regarding Matthew 24:15-16, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

*******

Time Watcher said in post 143:

.... and unless you are one of the sealed 144000 of the children of Israel .... you will have no protection

Actually, that's not the case. For all obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

*******

Time Watcher said in post 147:

The Lord speaks to Israel’s past intransigence toward Him and at the same time tells of His intent to save a remnant part of the nation to participate in the restoration of their kingdom which He has delayed because of the nation’s rejection of Him as Messiah and King …. this condition will change in part during the coming time of tribulation for them [the time of “Jacob’s” trouble]

The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 152:

Jesus never mentioned a rapture.

Jesus does mention the rapture, for it's the gathering together of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which he mentions in Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, and John 14:3.

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

 

[Time Watcher]

And people also need to be wary of those who arbitrarly place this event at the end of the Lord's coming judgment

And particularly those who then say that the Lord's promise to call His own just before "a lie of the devil"

It will be these who desire the coming tribulation that will be exposed to Satan's deceptions during the period .... and he is working night and day at this time to convince them for his own ambitions

Once in the tribulation he is going to venture to destroy all of humanity at the time .... in one way or another [Revelation 12:12] .... it will be possible for any to seek the Lord during the period, but the conditions will be of extreme deception and confusion

There is a reason why this controversy is at the top of the list today

 

[zeke37]

thing is that Christians are not removed from the planet tho.
Rev12 ends with satan going after Christians.
there's even mention of the patience of the saints in Rev13
right in the midst of the beasts time

it's a test for Christians and the world
fail it and u get His wrath which follows the trib.

 

[Time Watcher]

Some seek the tribuation .... want to be purified by the Lord's wrath against unbelief

The ecclesia of Jesus Christ are already saved and have no need for judgment against them .... this is what the Lord's salvation is all about

Those who will be martyred in the tribulation by the beast are not of today's ecclesia .... they will turn to the Lord during the tribulation period [Revelation 14:13]

To think otherwise makes a contradiction and mockery of the Lord's gift of salvation

One is not saved by works, but by faith in the One who is willing and able to save them

Who told you that you are going into the tribulation zeke?

Why do so many want the Lord's judgment upon them and seek His coming hour of trial upon an unbelieving world?

Did the pre-diluvians seek the flood?

Here is the world that will experience His coming judgment [Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35]

 

[ancientsoul]

Pre Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib raptures - I do not see any of them in the Bible. When the Lord Jesus Returns in His glory, there will be a 'rising up to meet Him', this seems to be the 30 day marriage supper event. Also, righteous Israel, the 'Woman', will be flown on the wings of the great eagle, to a place of safety on earth during the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation. Any other speculations such as a removal to heaven is un-scriptural.
As I say in #121 I am looking forward to the amazing blessings the Lord has promised to His people, of a gathering and settling in all of the holy Land, soon after this Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath - the 6th seal, the next prophesied event.

i don't see them, either ... have tried and tried ... just can't see it ...