How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[LittleLambofJesus]

LOL! It was JESUS who told Caiaphas that he and his associates would see His coming.
He also said, "These be the days of vengence that ALL things WRITTEN might be fulfilled."

Jesus said that ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed. Or is Jesus just "some dude" to you also?

Mat 26:64
Jesus saith to him, "thou saith,
nevertheless I am saying to ye, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the rights of the power and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.'

Rev 6:16
and they say to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)



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[Jack Terrence]

God said clouds and that is what He meant. It was not symbolic when Jesus ascended in the clouds, the angel said that Jesus would return in the same way. In the literal clouds not figuratively.

How do you know it wasn't symbolic? Were you there? The word "cloud" to the ancients represented a covering of angels. Jesus ascended into heaven in a cloud, that is, surrounded by heavenly hosts. He returned in like manner in ad70. Today we would say something like, "I was encompassed in a sea of people."

Josephus the Jewish historian and Tacticus the Gentile historian both recorded that when Jesus returned He was accompanied by heavenly beings. It was this kind of "cloud" which received Jesus into heaven. It was NOT about white cotton ball masses.

Hebrews says,

"Therefore, we also since we are compassed by so great CLOUD of witnesses."

Can you see it? We are covered in a cloud of faithful witnesses.

Tell us what you think would be the meaning in Jesus departing and then returning in white cotton ball masses in the air. There is no meaning to it at all. But a covering of angels (cloud) would mean something.

 

[he-man]

How do you know it wasn't symbolic? Were you there? The word "cloud" to the ancients represented a covering of angels. Jesus ascended into heaven in a cloud, that is, surrounded by heavenly hosts. There is no meaning to it at all. But a covering of angels (cloud) would mean something.

Right, but it hasn't happened yet and it doesn't mean all ten thousands are going to be riding on the literal clouds. It is an idiom expressing that Jesus will return with a cloud of holy ones to wreak retribution on those who would not obey the commandments and did not wish to recognize Christ as the Son of God.

Note: The people who expect a rapture will wail and weep when they see him with eyes wide open and flee to the hill to hide from his anger!

Jude 1:14 — And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (Darby)
2Th 7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with [the] angels of his power,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;

9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

 

[Jack Terrence]

Right, but it hasn't happened yet and it doesn't mean all ten thousands are going to be riding on the literal clouds. It is an idiom expressing that Jesus will return with a cloud of holy ones to wreak retribution on those who would not obey the commandments and did not wish to recognize Christ as the Son of God.

Yes it has happened. But you are correct that the "clouds" in which He returned (past tense) was His company of angels. On this we agree.

Josephus and Tacticus recorded eye witness accounts of His return with His angels.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes it has happened. But you are correct that the "clouds" in which He returned (past tense) was His company of angels. On this we agree.

Josephus and Tacticus recorded eye witness accounts of His return with His angels.

I actually have a thread of some of the strange events that happened shortly before the prophecied destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple, for those interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7593926-8/
Josephus's sights and signs 1st century...did these really occur?

I have been reading thru this site again and I am still wondering if these events that Josephus wrote about actually occurred

Is there anything written elsewhere by other witnesses during this period of the Jewish uprising before the coming of the Roman army in ad70?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Our Lord proceeded, "And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [6]- Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

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[Der Alte]

How do you know it wasn't symbolic? Were you there? The word "cloud" to the ancients represented a covering of angels. Jesus ascended into heaven in a cloud, that is, surrounded by heavenly hosts. He returned in like manner in ad70. Today we would say something like, "I was encompassed in a sea of people."

Any evidence that "'cloud' to the ancients represented a covering of angels to the ancients?" As I said Act 1:9 says, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." There is nothing which requires this to refer to heavenly hosts. There is an old maxim about Bible translation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Josephus the Jewish historian and Tacticus the Gentile historian both recorded that when Jesus returned He was accompanied by heavenly beings. It was this kind of "cloud" which received Jesus into heaven. It was NOT about white cotton ball masses.

Where do Josephus and Tacitus say that Jesus returned accompanied by heavenly beings?

"Therefore, we also since we are compassed by so great CLOUD of witnesses."

Can you see it? We are covered in a cloud of faithful witnesses.

Yes I do see it but one use of cloud to represent a large group is not license to force every occurrenece of "cloud" to have that meaning.

Tell us what you think would be the meaning in Jesus departing and then returning in white cotton ball masses in the air. There is no meaning to it at all. But a covering of angels (cloud) would mean something.

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia says about clouds, in Jewish thought.

In the peculiar climatic conditions of Palestine clouds were an important feature. The year was divided into a rainy season, from October to May, and a dry season, from May to October. During the rainless season not only was there no rain, but not even a cloud appeared in the heavens (I Sam. xii. 17, 18), and when the rain-cloud did appear it arose gradually from the west—that is, from the sea—and then the heavens were darkened and a tremendous downpour followed (I Kings xviii. 45). Many figurative expressions are derived from the qualities of the clouds. They are driven across the sky very quickly; hence it is said that the enemy "shall come up as the clouds" (Isa. xix. 1, ix. 8; Jer. iv. 13). Job complains of his welfare passing away as the cloud (Job xxx. 15). Here, too, is the thought that the cloud leaves no trace behind it. Originating from this thought is the phrase in Isa. xliv. 22, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions." The clouds of the rainy season foreshadow the rain, hence symbolize a favor bestowed (Prov. xvi. 15). In the dry season the dew-cloud revives the dried vegetation; God's favor is therefore pictured as the dew (Hosea xiv. 5). The blackness of the clouds betokens misfortune (Ezek. xxx. 18; Lam. ii. 1), and even a curse, as in Job iii. 5.

Clouds are frequently pictured as hiding God from man and as intercepting man's petitions (Lam. iii. 44; Job xxii. 13, 14). In Job xxvi. 8 there is the strong figure of the cloud used to bind up and contain the waters. As direct manifestations of God, the clouds are His chariots (Ps. civ. 3; Isa. xix. 1). When God appeared over Mount Sinai it was in clouds and thunder and lightning. A cloud covered the mercy-seat (Lev. xvi. 2) in the Tabernacle, and later on it rested over the Temple (I Kings viii. 10, 11; II Chron. v. 13, 14). A pillar of cloud accompanied the Ark, showing the way by day through the wilderness (Ex. xiii., passim). See Rainbow.

CLOUD - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Only one reference to a large force, Jer 4:13, then it does not say "clouds come up" but "he [the enemy] shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles." "as the clouds" in the manner of the clouds.

 

[he-man]

Evidence that "'cloud' to the ancients represented a covering of angels?" As I said Act 1:9 says, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." There is nothing which requires this to refer to heavenly hosts.Only one reference to a large force, Jer 4:13, then it does not say "clouds come up" but "he [the enemy] shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. " "as the clouds" in the manner of the clouds.

deleted

 

[Jack Terrence]

Evidence that "'cloud' to the ancients represented a covering of angels?" As I said Act 1:9 says, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." There is nothing which requires this to refer to heavenly hosts.

And there is nothing which requires that the cloud which received Jesus out of their sight was a white cotton ball mass. This is YOUR assumption.

There is an old maxim abolut Bible translation, "If the plain sense, makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Except the bible was written in the ancient Semitic languages which were highly figurative and poetic. What may seem to be "plain sense" to you may be absurdity to the ancients and to me.

Where do Josephus and Tacitus say that Jesus retruned accompanied by heavenly beings?

Chariots in the Clouds - As Recorded by Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, and Others

Eusebius of Caesarea was a church father and a historian. He co-authored and co-signed the Nicene Creed which the Christian Church has adopted as its official statement on the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. Eusebius was regarded as an "extremely well learned Christian of his time." Eusebius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Modern day futurists have attempted to discredit Josephus' and Tacticus's accounts of Christ's coming. But Eusebius who was trustworthy and much closer to the time verified their accounts. He said,

"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the
cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8). [The presence of clouds here is incidental]

Your view that Jesus both ascended and will return in a white cotton ball mass presents a dilemna for you because it implies that His return will be invisible. A literal cloud is a covering. The origin of the word "cloud" is covering.

Finally, Jesus is seen as judging while "sitting on a cloud" (Revelation 14:14). If we use your "plain sense" principle, then we must affirm that the judgment will take place on a white cotton ball mass. The so called "plain sense" becomes NONSENSE.

There is nothing meaningful about His coming in a white cotton ball mass accept to come invisibly. Do you believe that His coming was/will be invisible?

 

[coraline]

You quoted Darby! Oh no, please, what a charlatan!

It is an idiom expressing that Jesus will return with a cloud of holy ones to wreak retribution on those who would not obey the commandments and did not wish to recognize Christ as the Son of God.

Note: The people who expect a rapture will wail and weep when they see him with eyes wide open and flee to the hill to hide from his anger!

Jude 1:14 — And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

No,, Jesus said "they" will see Him. Who is "they?"

Not unbelievers all over the modern world in the future! That's nonsense.

Matthew 26

62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


Oh compare Jude with God's figurative words also in

Deuteronomy 33:2
2 And he said:
“The LORD came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran,
And He came with ten thousands of saints; From His right hand Came a fiery law for them.

 

[Der Alte]

And there is nothing which requires that the cloud which received Jesus out of their sight was a white cotton ball mass. This is YOUR assumption.

Except the bible was written in the ancient Semitic languages which were highly figurative and poetic. What may seem to be "plain sense" to you may be absurdity to the ancients and to me.

Guess you missed my quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia which blows your whole cloud/crowd presumption away. There was nothing in the entire article which suggested that "clouds" represented huge masses of people. The absurdity is you demanding that I prove that clouds are literal. You are the one trying to make a common phenomenon figurative. You prove it.

Chariots in the Clouds - As Recorded by Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, and Others

Your link does not say what you claim it does. I read about soldiers and chariots moving about in the clouds but nothing about clouds being large masses of men. angels or any other kind of being.

"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8). [The presence of clouds here is incidental]

Note, the soldiers and chariots are moving through the clouds they are not the clouds. Were they moving through white cotton ball masses? Or were they moving through a great group of some kind of beings?

Your view that Jesus both ascended and will return in a white cotton ball mass presents a dilemna for you because it implies that His return will be invisible. A literal cloud is a covering. The origin of the word "cloud" is covering

Wrong! On the clouds, not concealed by them. What language are you claiming cloud means covering? Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia the meaning of different clouds. Nothing about covering.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Clouds.

Regarding the origin and nature of the clouds, R. Eliezer holds, pointing to Gen. ii. 6 and Job xxxvi. 28, that the clouds above sweeten the water rising from the ocean as mist, while R. Joshua, referring to Deut. xi. 11 and Job xxxvi. 37, says that the clouds form a receptacle through which the water coming from above pours down as through a sieve; whence the name "sheḥaḳim" (grinders), as they "grind" the water into single rain-drops (Gen. R. xiii.; compare Bacher, "Die Agada der Tannaiten," i. 136). These views seem to have given rise to another controversy between R. Johanan and R. Simon b. Laḳish, the former referring to Dan. vii. 13, the latter to Ps. cxxxv. 7 (Gen. R. l.c.). The five Biblical names for "cloud" are explained: "'ab" = the cloud thickening the upper atmosphere; "ed" = the cloud bringing, in the form of rain, "calamity" upon corn-speculators; "'anan" = the cloud rendering people "pleasant toward one another through prosperity; "nesi'im" = the cloud rendering people "princes," either by benefiting all or by favoring some; "ḥaziz" = the "shining" cloud causing men to have "visions" (Gen. R. l.c., and Yer. Ta'an. iii. 66c).

CLOUD - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

Nothing about clouds being large masses of men or angels.

Finally, Jesus is seen as judging while "sitting on a cloud" (Revelation 14:14). If we use your "plain sense" principle, then we must affirm that the judgment will take place on a white cotton ball mass. The so called "plain sense" becomes NONSENSE.

There is nothing meaningful about His coming in a white cotton ball mass accept to come invisibly. Do you believe that His coming was/will be invisible?

Your interpretation is ridiculous. Was jesus sitting on top of a mass of men in Rev 14;14? Wrong! "On the clouds" not concealed by them. Nothing meaningful about Jesus coming in actual clouds? Let us see what the ancient Jews actually believed about clouds. Jesus did not invent new meanings.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Clouds

When Moses' life was drawing to an end, the cloud of glory surrounded his successor, Joshua, at the gate of the tent, and Moses, standing outside, felt that his leadership was transferred to Joshua (Jellinek, "B. H." i. 116). Josephus ("Ant." iv. 8, § 48) relates of Moses' end that after he had dismissed the elders and was still discoursing with Eleazar, the high priest, and Joshua, a cloud suddenly stood over him and he disappeared (compare Samaritan Book of Joshua, vi.).

The clouds carried along from the River Pishon in paradise the precious stones for the ephod and the high priest's breastplate, as well as the sweet odors, the sacred oil, the balsam for the candlestick, and the ointment and incense for the Tabernacle (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxv. 27, 28, the word , used in the passage, denoting both "princes" and "clouds"). The clouds spoken of in Isa. lx. 8 ("Who are these that fly as a cloud?") are miraculous clouds, carrying the righteous every morning and evening from all parts of the world to the Temple at Jerusalem, so that they may participate in the divine service (Pesiḳ. R. 1.; compare I Thess. iv. 17: "We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [the angels] in the cloud to meet the Lord in the air").

The cloud of divine glory which carries the Son of man in the Messianic vision (Dan. vii. 13) has given rise to the identification of Anani, the descendant of David (I Chron. iii. 24), with the Messiah as "the one who will come down from the clouds" (see Targ. and Sanh. 92b: [[SIZE="+1"]νεφήλη[/SIZE]], "the son of the cloud"; hence Matt. xxiv. 30, passim).​

In the Jewish Encyclopedia article there is nothing about masses of angels or men being clouds.

 

[he-man]

Any evidence that "'cloud' to the ancients represented a covering of angels to the ancients?"

IDIOM my dear man, IDIOM.

It is an idiom expressing that Jesus will return with a cloud of holy ones to wreak retribution on those who would not obey the commandments and did not wish to recognize Christ as the Son of God.

Note: The people who expect a rapture will wail and weep when they see him with eyes wide open and flee to the hill to hide from his anger!

Jude 1:14 — And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (Darby)
2Th 7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with [the] angels of his power,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;

9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

 

[Der Alte]

LOL! It was JESUS who told Caiaphas that he and his associates would see His coming. He also said, "These be the days of vengence that ALL things WRITTEN might be fulfilled."

Jesus said that ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed. Or is Jesus just "some dude" to you also?

Where exactly did Jesus say "ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed?" Are you referring to Luke 21:22? That is not tied to the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by The Boxer

LOL! It was JESUS who told Caiaphas that he and his associates would see His coming. He also said, "These be the days of vengence that ALL things WRITTEN might be fulfilled."
​

Jesus said that ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Or is Jesus just "some dude" to you also?
​

Where exactly did Jesus say "ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed?" Are you referring to Luke 21:22? That is not tied to the destruction of Jerusalem.

If the unbelieving apostate Jews would read the Christian NT, I am quite sure they would believe it was
Btw, are you a futurist Dispensationalist that believes in a future "rapture"? Just curious

[Daniel, the Olivet Discourse and Revelation go together like white on rice]

Dan 12:4
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end;
many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase."


Mat 24:15
"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Luke 21:20
And when ye may see Jerusalem surrounded by encampments,
then know that come nigh did Her desolation;

Rev 1:3
Happy/blessed is he who is reading, and those hearing the words of the prophecy and keeping the things written in it -- for the time is nigh!

Rev 22:10
And He saith to me, "thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:Rapture refuted

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)​

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[Jack Terrence]

To Der Alter,

I have decied that I do not want to continue to spend time on a peripheral issue like the identity of clouds. So I will just leave you with the article below as this will be my last post on the identity of the clouds.

Please note that it is not just Preterists who identify the clouds as angels. The author who is a futurist also identifies the clouds as angels. The clouds with which Jesus ascended and returned were angels. Fluffy masses of water vapor did NOT receive Christ into heaven. It was angels that received Him into heaven.

Jesus returned with the clouds of heaven. The clouds of heaven are angels. They are NOT fluffy masses of water vapor.

The article,

Heavenly angels and clouds are often mentioned together. At Jesus' ascension into heaven, clouds are involved:

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11)
​

He was received by a cloud. Somehow, this doesn't sound like a normal cloud. And, as the verse says, He will return "in like manner;" again, with a cloud angels:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt 24:30)

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Matt 25:31)
​

When the saints are "raptured" (read about the rapture) to heaven, there will also be clouds involved:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)


"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)
​

It seems that these are clouds of angels that are spoken of. It also appears that the angels escort Jesus from place to place:

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." (Psa 68:17)

"Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:" (Psa 104:3)

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." (Dan 7:13)
​

The word "they" is referring to the angels ("came with the clouds" earlier in the verse).

In Isaiah, Satan makes a statement about his goals to "climb the ladder."

"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa 14:13-14)
​

It doesn't seem likely that to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" is a reference to going high up in the sky. More likely, it is describing his goal to be greater, to have a higher position than any of the other angels, ultimately to "be like the most High." It seems He wanted to be like God not in character but in terms of position, power and prestige.

Heavenly Angels are Usually Pictured in or With Clouds - Why?

Blessings

 

[consigliere31]

Jude 1:14 — And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

Was Enoch wrong? Was Jude wrong?

Jude said that the evil and wicked people they were dealing with in their church were the people that Enoch prophesied would be on the earth when the Lord returned with 10000 holy ones.

Those people have been dead for 2000 years, SO if the Lord did not return when those people were living on the earth, then Enoch was wrong,

And not only Enoch but also the Lord Himself and the apostles said that those evil and wicked people that Jude was talking about would be on the earth in the last days.

If Jude was not wrong then the last days were in the first century and the Lord did return in those last days, just as Enoch prophesied.

 

[consigliere31]

Where exactly did Jesus say "ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed?" Are you referring to Luke 21:22? That is not tied to the destruction of Jerusalem.

are you serious?

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

 

[consigliere31]

are you serious?

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”
10 Then he said to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

How can anyone not see that Luke 21 is about the destruction of Jerusalem that was about to come in that generation as Jesus said it would.

 

[Der Alte]

To Der Alter,

I have decied that I do not want to continue to spend time on a peripheral issue like the identity of clouds. So I will just leave you with the article below as this will be my last post on the identity of the clouds.

Please note that it is not just Preterists who identify the clouds as angels. The author who is a futurist also identifies the clouds as angels. The clouds with which Jesus ascended and returned was angels. Fluffy masses of water vapor did NOT receive Christ into heaven. It was angels that received Him into heaven.

Jesus returned with the clouds of heaven. The clouds of heaven are angels. They are NOT fluffy masses of water vapor.

The article,

Heavenly angels and clouds are often mentioned together. At Jesus' ascension into heaven, clouds are involved:
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." [Acts 1:9-11]

He was received by a cloud. Somehow, this doesn't sound like a normal cloud. And, as the verse says, He will return "in like manner;" again, with a cloud angels:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt 24:30)

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Matt 25:31)

When the saints are "raptured" (read about the rapture) to heaven, there will also be clouds involved:
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)

It seems that these are clouds of angels that are spoken of. It also appears that the angels escort Jesus from place to place:
"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." (Psa 68:17)

"Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:" (Psa 104:3)

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." (Dan 7:13)

The word "they" is referring to the angels ("came with the clouds" earlier in the verse).

In Isaiah, Satan makes a statement about his goals to "climb the ladder." [It was Nebuchadnezzar NOT satan]
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa 14:13-14)

It doesn't seem likely that to "ascend above the heights of the clouds" is a reference to going high up in the sky. More likely, it is describing his goal to be greater, to have a higher position than any of the other angels, ultimately to "be like the most High." It seems He wanted to be like God not in character but in terms of position, power and prestige.

Heavenly Angels are Usually Pictured in or With Clouds - Why?

Blessings

Random website, anonymous author? Sorry! Major fail! Right, let's just ignore the fact that the Jews did not consider clouds to be large numbers of people or angels.

 

[Der Alte]

How can anyone not see that Luke 21 is about the destruction of Jerusalem that was about to come in that generation as Jesus said it would.

Luk 21:24-28
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
(25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
(26) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
(27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.​

When did these things happen? When were the Jews redeemed?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luk 21:24-28
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled
​

Glad you brought that up.

Rev 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity;
he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction Of
JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:

.......Before their final demolition however, Titus took a survey of the City and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.





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