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Weird question about the Theory of Evolution

graciesings

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I have studied evolution some, but I really don't understand it.

This is gonna sound odd, but I don't see how reproduction evolved. The theory of evolution says that everything happened gradually. My problem is that I don't see how groups of a few cells started laying eggs. I also have a hard time understanding how a transition from birds and fish (who lay eggs) into mammals (who have sexual intercourse) could have happened gradually. I especially have trouble imagining how the male/female division evolved. It doesn't make sense. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!
 

JamesKurtovich

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This is gonna sound odd, but I don't see how reproduction evolved.
Singles celled organisms like algae can reproduce & recombine. At some point left and right, male and female began to emerge. Eggs first show up in tiny shrimp at the Cambrian Explosion. Long after the great oxygen event. Extinctions and explosions seem to have more to do with changes in the Biosphere or the Ecosystems. People have wondered about the "chicken and the egg" for a long time.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I have studied evolution some, but I really don't understand it.

This is gonna sound odd, but I don't see how reproduction evolved. The theory of evolution says that everything happened gradually. My problem is that I don't see how groups of a few cells started laying eggs. I also have a hard time understanding how a transition from birds and fish (who lay eggs) into mammals (who have sexual intercourse) could have happened gradually. I especially have trouble imagining how the male/female division evolved. It doesn't make sense. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!
The short story is that species began asexually, evolved hermaphroditism, and then true sexuality.

Hard-shelled eggs are a recent development, being an adaptation of soft eggs (e.g., fish spawn, frog spawn) when those egg-layers moved onto dry land.
 
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Split Rock

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I have studied evolution some, but I really don't understand it.

This is gonna sound odd, but I don't see how reproduction evolved. The theory of evolution says that everything happened gradually. My problem is that I don't see how groups of a few cells started laying eggs. I also have a hard time understanding how a transition from birds and fish (who lay eggs) into mammals (who have sexual intercourse) could have happened gradually. I especially have trouble imagining how the male/female division evolved. It doesn't make sense. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Reproduction started with unicellular simple fission. It is the same today with unicellular organisms. They also share DNA, sometimes through special structures called pili. Eventually, multicellular organisms evolved from colonial ones (most bacteria are in fact colonial). Specialized cells took over reproduction. Eggs and sperm are just single cells specialized for reproduction. They are produced via cell division like any other cell, though diploid (two sets of chromosomes) organisms like us use two divisions to reduce their chromosomes to haploid (one set of chromosomes) so the fertilized egg will be diploid. Gender is just a specialization on producing either egg or sperm. Many organisms can do both or either. In humans, the specialization is (normally) complete... you are either female or male, not both (though there are exceptions).
 
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graciesings

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!

But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals? Can anyone shed some light on that?
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!

But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals? Can anyone shed some light on that?

^_^

So you aren't really interested in learning.

You need to realize that the reason we know anything at all is because there are those who are passionate about science and have devoted their careers to studying the very questions you ask, so that you might learn and understand the processes. And to claim that it takes more faith to believe something, because you don't understand it, is the argument from ignorance. Might it be more wise to claim that this information is difficult to understand, but that you'll devote the amount of time it takes to really understand the details? If you're being honest here, you would have to admit that your understanding of science is skewed by your religious dogma, and that there would be no amount of facts and evidence to sway you.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet.
Feel free to ask as many questions as you want. There are people from all sorts of scientific fields here - biologists, geologists, physicists, chemists, etc.

I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!
Why do you think that? Belief in evolution stems from the abundance of evidence that substantiates it - no faith is required.

But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals? Can anyone shed some light on that?
Through thousands of generations of mutation, starting with the evolution of synapsids 360 million to 300 million years ago. But your question is very vague - could you be more specific?
 
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OllieFranz

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Gracie --

Two things might help you to understand how egg-laying reptiles could be related to placental and marsupial mammals.

First, there are some reptiles (I know for sure about some snakes, but I'm not as certain about four-footed reptiles) that do not lay their eggs. They are kept in the mother's body until after the young hatch, and emerge live. From there, it is not so big a leap to the point where the shells are not needed and the mother's body produces the embryo's nourishment directly as needed instead of storing it up.

Second, there are mammals, known as monotremes, which lay eggs like reptiles. The best known monotreme is the platypus.

Either can show a sort of transition to marsupial, and later, placental mammals.
 
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Split Rock

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!
This is a typical nonsensical statement creationists make here all the time. There is no "faith" involved at all. This is what we have inferred from all the available data. This includes not just genetics, but development among living species that make use of these various types of reproduction even today.


But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals? Can anyone shed some light on that?
Some primitive mammals today lay eggs and some reptiles give birth to young without eggs. The evolution of reptiles into mammals is actually well documented in the fossil record, though not the details of reproduction. In fact, the intermediates (often called "mammal-like reptiles") ruled the terrestrial world for hundreds of millions of years before being supplanted by the dinosaurs. See:
http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/therapsida/index.html
http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/cynodontia/cynodontia.html
 
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Naraoia

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I have studied evolution some, but I really don't understand it.

This is gonna sound odd, but I don't see how reproduction evolved. The theory of evolution says that everything happened gradually.
This is not set in stone. It is completely possible for large changes to occur suddenly, they just aren't thought to be the main driving force of evolution. (Of course, this discussion also depends on what you mean by "gradual".)

My problem is that I don't see how groups of a few cells started laying eggs.
As far as I can see, when we are talking about groups of cells, it's a question of specialisation. Single-celled creatures reproduce by division*. In a population of your typical single-celled organism, every cell is capable of dividing. But what happens if single cells evolve into simple colonies? (Say, because it helps them escape predators)

At first, the cells in the colony would probably be identical. (Although not necessarily - I once read a modelling study arguing that cell differentiation itself may be a selective pressure favouring multicellularity!) So every one of them would be able to divide - and then the daughter cells could remain in the colony, or go off to found their own colonies.

However, if you are in a group of genetically identical or closely related cells, it can pay to specialise on a particular function at the expense of others. For example, while a cell is dividing, it can't eat or move very well, and vice versa. Adaptations that would make a cell very good at one thing could impair its ability to do other things.

A single-celled creature can't afford to turn into a feeding machine and lose its ability to divide, but in a colony, groups of cells can become super good at particular jobs while other cells take care of the rest. (A non-dividing cell in a colony is still passing on its genes by trusting reproduction to its clones!)

The full story would be a little more complicated than that, as there's sex involved, and there's the issue of cells that divide to replenish specialised tissues versus cells that divide to give rise to new organisms, but basically, I'd say groups of cells started "laying eggs" by dividing up their functions. Of course, once "eggs", as in specialised reproductive cells, exist, evolution can elaborate them depending on the challenges faced by a particular organism. Amounts of yolk, tough shells, etc. etc. are such elaborations.

*The process of cell division varies greatly in complexity, BTW. Some mutant bacteria are capable of dividing using basic physical forces, something that the first precursors of modern cells may have done, whereas your own cells (or typical bacteria, for that matter) can't do anything without complex protein machinery.

I also have a hard time understanding how a transition from birds and fish (who lay eggs) into mammals (who have sexual intercourse) could have happened gradually.
First of all, live birth and sexual intercourse are two separate things. Internal fertilisation is necessary for live birth, but some form of the former - with or without intercourse - also occurs in many creatures that lay eggs afterwards (egg-laying mammals, mentioned above, being a prime example).

The simplest way to get eggs fertilised is, of course, to spill them into the water and let a male of your species squirt sperm in their general direction. Most aquatic animals do just fine with this strategy. There are various ways of getting sperm inside the female before she lays her eggs. This is necessary for land animals that reproduce sexually, because sperm cells need a liquid to swim in in order to reach their target. But there are a few different ways of achieving it.

In some amphibians (these gorgeous salamanders being one of them), males just plop a little package on the ground and then try to get their mate to pick it up with her cloaca. In most birds, mating is little more than touching their cloacas together while the male squirts out his goodies. Of course, the most sophisticated and most effective method of internal fertilisation is developing some sort of specialised organ to stick inside the female, as close to her precious eggs as possible. But once you have a mating system like the basic bird one, an "inflatable" extension of your cloaca (a.k.a. a penis) is not that big of a leap!

(N.B. birds and mammals are on separate branches of the family tree of land vertebrates. Their common ancestor can be pretty certainly inferred to have laid eggs on land and used internal fertilisation, but you can't regard birds as "ancestral" to mammals. I don't know where in their evolutionary history mammals invented intercourse, or indeed whether birds didn't have penises to begin with or originally had them and lost them for some reason.)

I especially have trouble imagining how the male/female division evolved. It doesn't make sense. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!
Male and female organisms are a consequence of something called anisogamy - having two types of sex cells with different sizes. Sperm and eggs (or pollen or seeds*, or what have you) are basically two different reproductive strategies. You could say that sperm cells go for quantity over quality - they're not fat enough to sustain a developing embryo out of their own resources, but there's a heck of a lot of them. Eggs, you can make fewer for the same cost, but you put enough stuff in them to make sure that if they are fertilised, they will develop.

I'm not sure why such a division is a good idea in the first place - maybe it starts by having larger proto-eggs to better provision your babies, and then being able to exploit others' big fat eggs by producing tons of cheap little proto-sperm. How you go from hermaphrodites who can become more or less "male" or "female" depending on circumstances to strictly separate sexes, I also don't know. (I recall that this has been studied quite extensively in flowering plants, which have pretty varied breeding systems in this regard.)

However, the moment you have separate sexes, all sorts of evolutionary shenanigans ensue because of the different costs of parenthood for males and females...

*Although technically, pollen is NOT an equivalent of sperm. Pollen grains are the ultimate, reduced form of a stage in plant life that's a whole separate plant in groups such as mosses. Same goes for seeds, although seeds are a bit more than just the female gametophyte. Plant sex makes my head hurt.

Eggs first show up in tiny shrimp at the Cambrian Explosion.
Huh?

Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!
It doesn't take a lot of faith - but it does take a lot of hard work to understand the evidence. Here I must warn you that I'm not well read in the literature around the evolution of sex, sex differences, sexual selection/conflict and alla that. I think it's absolutely fascinating, but it's definitely Not My Field ;)

(Also, there's nothing to say that you can't believe in God and study evolution. Just ask our own sfs, because you'll probably find that a little suspicious coming from godless scum like me ;))

But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals? Can anyone shed some light on that?
Gracie --

Two things might help you to understand how egg-laying reptiles could be related to placental and marsupial mammals.

First, there are some reptiles (I know for sure about some snakes, but I'm not as certain about four-footed reptiles) that do not lay their eggs.
Loads of lizards. I think it tends to happen in cooler climates, but don't quote me on that. It does seem that all three of Scotland's native land reptiles - two of which are lizards - are (ovo)viviparous.

They are kept in the mother's body until after the young hatch, and emerge live. From there, it is not so big a leap to the point where the shells are not needed and the mother's body produces the embryo's nourishment directly as needed instead of storing it up.
The one issue to overcome is the mother's immune system, since mum and baby are not genetically identical, and you've got to get your nutrients from one body to the other somehow without a swarm of angry immune cells following. A couple of years ago I randomly came across one piece of that puzzle because it happened to involve Hox genes, and generally anything involving Hox genes attracts my attention :)

Either can show a sort of transition to marsupial, and later, placental mammals.
Phylogenetics nerd quibble: placental and marsupial mammals are sister groups, placentals are not an "upgrade" on marsupials.
 
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Loudmouth

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!

I have always found it interesting that people who claim that faith is important to them will turn around and use faith as a term of derision. Very interesting.

But this raises another question. How did organisms that laid eggs turn into mammals?

Are you aware that some mammals still lay eggs?
 
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graciesings

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This is not set in stone. It is completely possible for large changes to occur suddenly, they just aren't thought to be the main driving force of evolution. (Of course, this discussion also depends on what you mean by "gradual".)

As far as I can see, when we are talking about groups of cells, it's a question of specialisation. Single-celled creatures reproduce by division*. In a population of your typical single-celled organism, every cell is capable of dividing. But what happens if single cells evolve into simple colonies? (Say, because it helps them escape predators)

At first, the cells in the colony would probably be identical. (Although not necessarily - I once read a modelling study arguing that cell differentiation itself may be a selective pressure favouring multicellularity!) So every one of them would be able to divide - and then the daughter cells could remain in the colony, or go off to found their own colonies.

However, if you are in a group of genetically identical or closely related cells, it can pay to specialise on a particular function at the expense of others. For example, while a cell is dividing, it can't eat or move very well, and vice versa. Adaptations that would make a cell very good at one thing could impair its ability to do other things.

A single-celled creature can't afford to turn into a feeding machine and lose its ability to divide, but in a colony, groups of cells can become super good at particular jobs while other cells take care of the rest. (A non-dividing cell in a colony is still passing on its genes by trusting reproduction to its clones!)

The full story would be a little more complicated than that, as there's sex involved, and there's the issue of cells that divide to replenish specialised tissues versus cells that divide to give rise to new organisms, but basically, I'd say groups of cells started "laying eggs" by dividing up their functions. Of course, once "eggs", as in specialised reproductive cells, exist, evolution can elaborate them depending on the challenges faced by a particular organism. Amounts of yolk, tough shells, etc. etc. are such elaborations.

*The process of cell division varies greatly in complexity, BTW. Some mutant bacteria are capable of dividing using basic physical forces, something that the first precursors of modern cells may have done, whereas your own cells (or typical bacteria, for that matter) can't do anything without complex protein machinery.

First of all, live birth and sexual intercourse are two separate things. Internal fertilisation is necessary for live birth, but some form of the former - with or without intercourse - also occurs in many creatures that lay eggs afterwards (egg-laying mammals, mentioned above, being a prime example).

The simplest way to get eggs fertilised is, of course, to spill them into the water and let a male of your species squirt sperm in their general direction. Most aquatic animals do just fine with this strategy. There are various ways of getting sperm inside the female before she lays her eggs. This is necessary for land animals that reproduce sexually, because sperm cells need a liquid to swim in in order to reach their target. But there are a few different ways of achieving it.

In some amphibians (these gorgeous salamanders being one of them), males just plop a little package on the ground and then try to get their mate to pick it up with her cloaca. In most birds, mating is little more than touching their cloacas together while the male squirts out his goodies. Of course, the most sophisticated and most effective method of internal fertilisation is developing some sort of specialised organ to stick inside the female, as close to her precious eggs as possible. But once you have a mating system like the basic bird one, an "inflatable" extension of your cloaca (a.k.a. a penis) is not that big of a leap!

(N.B. birds and mammals are on separate branches of the family tree of land vertebrates. Their common ancestor can be pretty certainly inferred to have laid eggs on land and used internal fertilisation, but you can't regard birds as "ancestral" to mammals. I don't know where in their evolutionary history mammals invented intercourse, or indeed whether birds didn't have penises to begin with or originally had them and lost them for some reason.)

Male and female organisms are a consequence of something called anisogamy - having two types of sex cells with different sizes. Sperm and eggs (or pollen or seeds*, or what have you) are basically two different reproductive strategies. You could say that sperm cells go for quantity over quality - they're not fat enough to sustain a developing embryo out of their own resources, but there's a heck of a lot of them. Eggs, you can make fewer for the same cost, but you put enough stuff in them to make sure that if they are fertilised, they will develop.

I'm not sure why such a division is a good idea in the first place - maybe it starts by having larger proto-eggs to better provision your babies, and then being able to exploit others' big fat eggs by producing tons of cheap little proto-sperm. How you go from hermaphrodites who can become more or less "male" or "female" depending on circumstances to strictly separate sexes, I also don't know. (I recall that this has been studied quite extensively in flowering plants, which have pretty varied breeding systems in this regard.)

However, the moment you have separate sexes, all sorts of evolutionary shenanigans ensue because of the different costs of parenthood for males and females...

*Although technically, pollen is NOT an equivalent of sperm. Pollen grains are the ultimate, reduced form of a stage in plant life that's a whole separate plant in groups such as mosses. Same goes for seeds, although seeds are a bit more than just the female gametophyte. Plant sex makes my head hurt.

Huh?

It doesn't take a lot of faith - but it does take a lot of hard work to understand the evidence. Here I must warn you that I'm not well read in the literature around the evolution of sex, sex differences, sexual selection/conflict and alla that. I think it's absolutely fascinating, but it's definitely Not My Field ;)

(Also, there's nothing to say that you can't believe in God and study evolution. Just ask our own sfs, because you'll probably find that a little suspicious coming from godless scum like me ;))

Don't worry, I believe Christians should study evolution. God doesn't tell us how He created the Earth. I also think people should know what they don't believe, in addition to what they do! And I would like to learn from you, you are good at explaining.

Loads of lizards. I think it tends to happen in cooler climates, but don't quote me on that. It does seem that all three of Scotland's native land reptiles - two of which are lizards - are (ovo)viviparous.

The one issue to overcome is the mother's immune system, since mum and baby are not genetically identical, and you've got to get your nutrients from one body to the other somehow without a swarm of angry immune cells following. A couple of years ago I randomly came across one piece of that puzzle because it happened to involve Hox genes, and generally anything involving Hox genes attracts my attention :)

Phylogenetics nerd quibble: placental and marsupial mammals are sister groups, placentals are not an "upgrade" on marsupials.

Thank you for your post, it was very understandable and informative. The part that is probably hardest for me is imagining an organism going from laying eggs to internally growing their own. for example, I think a bird that suddenly tried to grow all it's eggs inside of it would die pretty quickly, as it might not be able to fly hunt defend itself, etc.
 
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graciesings

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I have always found it interesting that people who claim that faith is important to them will turn around and use faith as a term of derision. Very interesting.

I see faith as a good thing, because everybody who thinks has faith in something. If someone has faith that means they are thinking. I am mainly reflecting that the odds of evolution happening this way are low enough that the the atheists I know who use "faith" as a term of derision really shouldn't say that to me. I am sorry if the comment insulted anyone.

Are you aware that some mammals still lay eggs?

No, I wasn't until today. I don't know much about science, but I am trying hard to understand it.
 
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Thank you for your post, it was very understandable and informative. The part that is probably hardest for me is imagining an organism going from laying eggs to internally growing their own. for example, I think a bird that suddenly tried to grow all it's eggs inside of it would die pretty quickly, as it might not be able to fly hunt defend itself, etc.
That might not work for a bird, no, which might be why birds haven't evolved such a mechanism. But it would be advantageous for some species - it would mean you carried your vulnerable young inside you, instead of leaving them out in the open. It would mean you can move about, instead of being tied to one spot. For some species, this may outweigh the disadvantages.

The actual process by which this might evolve is quite straightforward - all that would happen is that the egg would spend longer inside the female, and less time outside before it hatches. Eventually, it would hatch inside, and the egg would never actually harden. And just like that, you have non-egg-laying species.
 
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JamesKurtovich

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Ok, I follow the explanation. Although it doesn't make a ton of sense just yet. I think it takes more faith to believe this than to believe in God!

You're still learning.

A scientific explanation for reproduction is not opposed to a belief in a god. That's a false dichotomy.
 
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I also have a hard time understanding how a transition from birds and fish (who lay eggs) into mammals (who have sexual intercourse) could have happened gradually.

Fish, birds and mammals all have eggs (and sperm). Birds (also amphibians and reptiles) do have sex. And the two remaining genera of Monotremes lay eggs.

I especially have trouble imagining how the male/female division evolved. It doesn't make sense. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Since plants have gender as well, the advent of sex started a very, very long time ago.
 
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Loudmouth

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I see faith as a good thing, because everybody who thinks has faith in something. If someone has faith that means they are thinking. I am mainly reflecting that the odds of evolution happening this way are low enough that the the atheists I know who use "faith" as a term of derision really shouldn't say that to me. I am sorry if the comment insulted anyone.

It wasn't an atheist using faith as a term of derision. That was you doing that. I find that odd, is all.

Also, you never showed us how you calculated the probability of evolution happening. Can you give us an idea of how you did those calculations?

No, I wasn't until today. I don't know much about science, but I am trying hard to understand it.

We only have two species of egg-laying mammals left: the platypus and the echidna.

What you may find even more interesting are the tunicates. These are basal urochordates that split off early in vertebrate evolution. They are very simple vertebrates without a hard endoskeleton and many of the features you are familiar with in other vertebrate species. What we find is that these very simple vertebrates are hermaphroditic (i.e. they have both male and female gonads in the same individual).

Tunicate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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