Weep Over Jerusalem?

[crimsonleaf]

I don't understand your point, no.

I seem to spend a lot of time explaining things to you which you claim not to understand.

OK, baby steps:

You say that Jesus came to save sinners, and that must mean ALL sinners, right?

I claim I was put on earth to collect Coke cans. Am I suggesting that I'm collecting every Coke can that ever existed? No, of course not. Maybe I'm just going to collect enough to fill a spare bedroom, or all the pre-1955 cans (By the way, notice my use of the word "all" here - not every single pre-1955 can, but every TYPE of pre-1955 can - but I digress) or all those with a 1977 logo.

So just for a second, pretend that Jesus came to save Coke cans, not sinners. Does the statement "Jesus came to save Coke cans" necessarily mean that Jesus is saving ever single extant Coke can? No, of course not, any more that "Jesus came to save sinners" means every single sinner.

How are we doing?

 

[Hammster]

The number saved is not relevant.

Exactly. Now does it say that he came to save sinners, or attempt to save sinners?

 

[janxharris]

Prayer excluded from some :


Jer 7:16
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Therefore pray not for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear you.


Jeremiah 11:14 "Do not pray for this people or offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.

Jer 15:1
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not turn toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

John 17:9
New Living Translation (©2007)
"My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.




1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that

1 Sam 2:25
New Living Translation (©2007)
If someone sins against another person, God can mediate for the guilty party. But if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede?" But Eli's sons wouldn't listen to their father, for the LORD was already planning to put them to death.

God told Jeremiah not to pray for Judah because they were worshipping other God; Jesus prays for his disciples followed by praying for anyone that would believe...not really sure that has much bearing on 1 Tim 1 and 2.

Jesus said (whilst being crucified), 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'.

 

[janxharris]

I seem to spend a lot of time explaining things to you which you claim not to understand.

OK, baby steps:

You say that Jesus came to save sinners, and that must mean ALL sinners, right?

I claim I was put on earth to collect Coke cans. Am I suggesting that I'm collecting every Coke can that ever existed? No, of course not. Maybe I'm just going to collect enough to fill a spare bedroom, or all the pre-1955 cans (By the way, notice my use of the word "all" here - not every single pre-1955 can, but every TYPE of pre-1955 can - but I digress) or all those with a 1977 logo.

So just for a second, pretend that Jesus came to save Coke cans, not sinners. Does the statement "Jesus came to save Coke cans" necessarily mean that Jesus is saving ever single extant Coke can? No, of course not, any more that "Jesus came to save sinners" means every single sinner.

How are we doing?

Thanks, but I don't accept your argument. Where is the suggestion that Jesus came for certain types?

I don't thank you for the mocking - there is no need.

 

[janxharris]

Exactly. Now does it say that he came to save sinners, or attempt to save sinners?

And your point?

Why would you have a problem with Jesus not saving someone (because they refuse) when he had come to save them?

 

[Skala]

And your point?

How could you possibly not see the point?

 

[Hammster]

And your point?

Why would you have a problem with Jesus not saving someone (because they refuse) when he had come to save them?

Because then He wouldn't be saving them, would He? It would just be an attempt.

 

[janxharris]

Because then He wouldn't be saving them, would He? It would just be an attempt.

It was an attempt. Each man's response is part of the process.

 

[Hammster]

It was an attempt. Each man's response is part of the process.

Process for who?

 

[janxharris]

Process for who?

?

 

[Hammster]

?

Let's out it this way. Is there anything in the text that says it has to be all sinners?

 

[janxharris]

Let's out it this way. Is there anything in the text that says it has to be all sinners?

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I would say the onus is with those that deny it says 'all men' to prove that it means 'all types of men'. The word 'types' has to read into the text.

 

[Hammster]

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


I would say the onus is with those that deny it says 'all men' to prove that it means 'all types of men'. The word 'types' has to read into the text.

The point is that you have to assume your position to come up with your conclusion. There's nothing in the text that definitive points to every single person who ever lived.

 

[janxharris]

The point is that you have to assume your position to come up with your conclusion. There's nothing in the text that definitive points to every single person who ever lived.

Absolutely it does. No assumptions.

Your problem seems to be that you can't imagine Jesus not achieving that which He set out to do because it looks like He is not sovereign.

 

[cygnusx1]

God told Jeremiah not to pray for Judah because they were worshipping other God; Jesus prays for his disciples followed by praying for anyone that would believe...not really sure that has much bearing on 1 Tim 1 and 2.

Jesus said (whilst being crucified), 'Forgive them Father for they know not what they do'.

So now your going to pray for those God commanded not to pray for !

 

[crimsonleaf]

Thanks, but I don't accept your argument. Where is the suggestion that Jesus came for certain types?

I don't thank you for the mocking - there is no need.

I haven't started mocking yet.

Ignore the bit about types - I gave you too much in one go. If I say I'm here on earth to save Coke cans, must that mean every Coke can on the planet?

Yes or no?

 

[janxharris]

I haven't started mocking yet.

Ignore the bit about types - I gave you too much in one go. If I say I'm here on earth to save Coke cans, must that mean every Coke can on the planet?

Yes or no?

If the Bible of the Coke can saver consists of just a couple of sentences then I guess we can't be sure that every single can is meant.

 

[Hammster]

Absolutely it does. No assumptions.

Your problem seems to be that you can't imagine Jesus not achieving that which He set out to do because it looks like He is not sovereign.

And this is why you are blinded by your tradition. When you cannot admit that the grammar might mean something else, that should raise a red flag.

 

[janxharris]

And this is why you are blinded by your tradition. When you cannot admit that the grammar might mean something else, that should raise a red flag.

The grammar clearly means all. Jesus came to offer salvation for all.

It is palpably obvious that reformers are forced to twist these scriptures; that you cannot see this is astonishing.

To suggest that He came with no provision for some people is an awful assertion.

 

[Hammster]

The grammar clearly means all. Jesus came to offer salvation for all.

It is palpably obvious that reformers are forced to twist these scriptures; that you cannot see this is astonishing.

To suggest that He came with no provision for some people is an awful assertion.

How about we stick with biblical arguments? Ones from emotion are just that.

So back to the text:

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

Is there anything in the text that suggests it HAS to mean every person who ever lived?