Weep Over Jerusalem?

[Hammster]

Then, why would He say that He had often longed to gather them?

Because He did.

If I long to gather sticks, I gather them. I don't have to wait and often long to do it.

I let Jesus know that He's supposed to do things the same way that you do them. I sure He just didn't know.

If they gathered to Him every time He longed for them to do so then He would just say so, but this was not the case. The leaders were unwilling to let them be gathered.

Which is why they were rebuked. But their action didn't affect Jesus' actions.

And, why did He weep over the Jerusalem?

As far as I can tell, since it's irrelevant to this text, it's irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[crimsonleaf]

I feel like I'm getting on hammster's wheel again. The text presents the longing of the Lord to gather the children and the unwillingness of the leaders to let them be gathered. Is their will more effective than God's desire?

Does God desire that all men become saved?

Do they?

 

[Arcoe]

Does God desire that all men become saved?

Do they?

Does God desire all regenerate men to obey His commands? Do they?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Does God desire all regenerate men to obey His commands? Do they?

Pointless interjection as usual. But as you ask, all I can say is that for the first time we have the desire to try.

 

[gmm4j]

Does God desire that all men become saved?

Do they?

1 Tim 2:3-7
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.

Ezek 33:11
'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Yes.

No.

 

[Skala]

1 Tim 2:3-7
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.

Ezek 33:11
'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

Yes.

No.

You might want to stop misusing the Bible.

1 Timothy is Paul defending his ministry to the Gentiles and urging us to pray for people of all types (kings, and those in authority) because God desires that people of all types be saved. Rather than disregarding those who are in power that oppress Christians, Paul tells us to pray for them.

Paul doesn't just randomly insert the idea that God is desperate for every single individual in the human race to be saved.

 

[gmm4j]

You might want to stop misusing the Bible.

1 Timothy is Paul defending his ministry to the Gentiles and urging us to pray for people of all types (kings, and those in authority) because God desires that people of all types be saved. Rather than disregarding those who are in power that oppress Christians, Paul tells us to pray for them.

Paul doesn't just randomly insert the idea that God is desperate for every single individual in the human race to be saved.

Does he just insert that there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men-the testimony given in its proper time.?

 

[pshun2404]

Good Day, Gmm

The first thing that has to be established in Matt 23:37 is who or waht is Jerusalem, and then who or what is her children.

Then we must understand what is the authoriative stucture or connection of authority between the two, as one can see in the text But you (Jerusalem) were not willing, how and why did Jerusalem over rule her children.

Why did Jesus only what to gather her children, and not her?

That should get us started...

In Him,

Bill

Good question Bill. Well we know Jerusalem is not referring to the city itself since the city has no mind of its own to direct the children one way opr the other. So since Jerusalem (which had the Temple and the Sanhedrin as its center of spiritual authority) was the place Judaism looked for its spiritual guidance and understanding of the Law, I suggest it refers to the religious leadership and the people that were directed spiritually by them are it's children (those who followed and obeyed this leadership). What do you all think this means? However the principle understanding of what Jesus is saying is not changed...people could have turned to Him whenever He called them to Himself but they did not. Therefore it was not an issue of irresistability because His statement implies this gathering was offered and they WOULD NOT (implying as an act of their wills) as opposed to COULD NOT (as if they were created to reject the call).

Paul

 

[gmm4j]

Good question Bill. Well we know Jerusalem is not referring to the city itself since the city has no mind of its own to direct the children one way opr the other. So since Jerusalem (which had the Temple and the Sanhedrin as its center of spiritual authority) was the place Judaism looked for its spiritual guidance and understanding of the Law, I suggest it refers to the religious leadership and the people that were directed spiritually by them are it's children (those who followed and obeyed this leadership). What do you all think this means? However the principle understanding of what Jesus is saying is not changed...people could have turned to Him whenever He called them to Himself but they did not. Therefore it was not an issue of irresistability because His statement implies this gathering was offered and they WOULD NOT (implying as an act of their wills) as opposed to COULD NOT (as if they were created to reject the call).

Paul

Amen!

 

[janxharris]

You might want to stop misusing the Bible.

1 Timothy is Paul defending his ministry to the Gentiles and urging us to pray for people of all types (kings, and those in authority) because God desires that people of all types be saved. Rather than disregarding those who are in power that oppress Christians, Paul tells us to pray for them.

Paul doesn't just randomly insert the idea that God is desperate for every single individual in the human race to be saved.

Paul's first letter to Timothy begins by telling him to stay in Ephesus so that he can deal with false teachers. Paul then thanks Jesus for the mercy shown to him. Then in verse 15 he says:

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Since all men are sinners it follows that Paul is saying that Christ Jesus came to save all men. Paul does not qualify or limit his assertion.

That Christ came to save all men (without exception) is underlined in the verses that begin chapter 2:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

You have not presented a good reason to interpret Paul's words in a way that is different from what they in fact clearly do teach.

 

[cygnusx1]

Paul's first letter to Timothy begins by telling him to stay in Ephesus so that he can deal with false teachers. Paul then thanks Jesus for the mercy shown to him. Then in verse 15 he says:

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Since all men are sinners it follows that Paul is saying that Christ Jesus came to save all men. Paul does not qualify or limit his assertion.

That Christ came to save all men (without exception) is underlined in the verses that begin chapter 2:

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

You have not presented a good reason to interpret Paul's words in a way that is different from what they in fact clearly do teach.

Now admit scripture forbids prayer for some men !

 

[janxharris]

Now admit scripture forbids prayer for some men !

Eh?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Paul's first letter to Timothy begins by telling him to stay in Ephesus so that he can deal with false teachers. Paul then thanks Jesus for the mercy shown to him. Then in verse 15 he says:

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Since all men are sinners it follows that Paul is saying that Christ Jesus came to save all men.

How about "I came into the world to collect Coke tins"? Every Coke tin in the world? As many Coke tins as I can? Limited edition Coke tins?

Sorta kills the whole argument doesn't it?

 

[janxharris]

How about "I came into the world to collect Coke tins"? Every Coke tin in the world? As many Coke tins as I can? Limited edition Coke tins?

Sorta kills the whole argument doesn't it?

Do you deny that Christ came to save sinners as Paul says? In what way is this statement qualified?

When you add on what Paul says in chapter 2 which confirms what he has already said then his meaning is undeniable.

 

[Hammster]

Good question Bill. Well we know Jerusalem is not referring to the city itself since the city has no mind of its own to direct the children one way opr the other. So since Jerusalem (which had the Temple and the Sanhedrin as its center of spiritual authority) was the place Judaism looked for its spiritual guidance and understanding of the Law, I suggest it refers to the religious leadership and the people that were directed spiritually by them are it's children (those who followed and obeyed this leadership). What do you all think this means? However the principle understanding of what Jesus is saying is not changed...people could have turned to Him whenever He called them to Himself but they did not. Therefore it was not an issue of irresistability because His statement implies this gathering was offered and they WOULD NOT (implying as an act of their wills) as opposed to COULD NOT (as if they were created to reject the call).

Paul

Where does it say that He desired to gather the leaders and that they were unwilling?

 

[Hammster]

Do you deny that Christ came to save sinners as Paul says? In what way is this statement qualified?

When you add on what Paul says in chapter 2 which confirms what he has already said then his meaning is undeniable.

It says that He came to save sinners. How many sinners would He have to save to make this a valid statement?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Do you deny that Christ came to save sinners as Paul says? In what way is this statement qualified?

When you add on what Paul says in chapter 2 which confirms what he has already said then his meaning is undeniable.

I refer you to Hammster's answer above.

But I'll give you a clue as to the answer to his question - it's more than one and less than three.

And you just plain didn't understand the Coke cans thing did you?

 

[cygnusx1]

Eh?

Prayer excluded from some :


Jer 7:16
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Therefore pray not for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear you.


Jeremiah 11:14 "Do not pray for this people or offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.

Jer 15:1
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not turn toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

John 17:9
New Living Translation (©2007)
"My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.




1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that

1 Sam 2:25
New Living Translation (©2007)
If someone sins against another person, God can mediate for the guilty party. But if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede?" But Eli's sons wouldn't listen to their father, for the LORD was already planning to put them to death.

 

[janxharris]

It says that He came to save sinners. How many sinners would He have to save to make this a valid statement?

The number saved is not relevant.

 

[janxharris]

I refer you to Hammster's answer above.

But I'll give you a clue as to the answer to his question - it's more than one and less than three.

And you just plain didn't understand the Coke cans thing did you?

I don't understand your point, no.