Weep Over Jerusalem?

gmm4j

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Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

According to Calvinism’s view of election, the judgment of Jerusalem would have been the “good pleasure" of the Father (Ephesians 1:9-10). If that were so, why was it so disturbing to Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have been pleased with the Father's will for Jerusalem?

Also, if Jesus was a Calvinist who knew the will of the Father and He really longed for them to be gathered unto Him, wouldn’t the Spirit simply have irresistibly drawn them?
 

Arcoe

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Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

According to Calvinism’s view of election, the judgment of Jerusalem would have been the “good pleasure" of the Father (Ephesians 1:9-10). If that were so, why was it so disturbing to Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have been pleased with the Father's will for Jerusalem?

Also, if Jesus was a Calvinist who knew the will of the Father and He really longed for them to be gathered unto Him, wouldn’t the Spirit simply have irresistibly drawn them?

Now let's keep emotionalism out of this! <sarcasm>
 
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janxharris

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Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

According to Calvinism&#8217;s view of election, the judgment of Jerusalem would have been the &#8220;good pleasure" of the Father (Ephesians 1:9-10). If that were so, why was it so disturbing to Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have been pleased with the Father's will for Jerusalem?

Also, if Jesus was a Calvinist who knew the will of the Father and He really longed for them to be gathered unto Him, wouldn&#8217;t the Spirit simply have irresistibly drawn them?

I have always thought that this proves that all men have the real ability to choose freely.
 
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BBAS 64

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Why would Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Luke 19:41
As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, But you were not willing.

According to Calvinism’s view of election, the judgment of Jerusalem would have been the “good pleasure" of the Father (Ephesians 1:9-10). If that were so, why was it so disturbing to Jesus? Shouldn't Jesus have been pleased with the Father's will for Jerusalem?

Also, if Jesus was a Calvinist who knew the will of the Father and He really longed for them to be gathered unto Him, wouldn’t the Spirit simply have irresistibly drawn them?

Good Day, Gmm

The first thing that has to be established in Matt 23:37 is who or waht is Jerusalem, and then who or what is her children.

Then we must understand what is the authoriative stucture or connection of authority between the two, as one can see in the text But you (Jerusalem) were not willing, how and why did Jerusalem over rule her children.

Why did Jesus only what to gather her children, and not her?

That should get us started...

In Him,

Bill
 
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I have always thought that this proves that all men have the real ability to choose freely.

Good day,

Well not she ruled over her chikldren, and children were subjected to her unwillingness.

Children can not choose and therefore did not.

In Him,

Bill
 
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gmm4j

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Good Day,

Who / what was Jesus trying to gather?

Who / what was unwilling?

In Him,

Bill

Jerusalem's children, but they were not effectively gathered, therefore His tears. Shouldn't a special inward call by the Spirit have effectively gathered them despite the unwillingness of their leaders? Why would Jesus weep and long to gather those of whom it must not have been the good pleasure of the Father to gather?
 
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Jerusalem's children, but they were not effectively gathered, therefore His tears. Shouldn't a special inward call by the Spirit have effectively gathered them despite the unwillingness of their leaders? Why would Jesus weep and long to gather those of whom it must not have been the good pleasure of the Father to gather?

Good day, Gmm

So you see that the will of the children does not matter.

Why is this Gathering the same as salvation, why do you equate the 2?

Gathering of a nation is not salvation?

If for sake of arugment it was you have the standing question, what happened to the will of the children, their leaders have no rights to decide for them where is thier free-wills?

The children are whom specificlly, whom are the leaders?

In Him,

Bill
 
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cygnusx1

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How often would I have gathered your chicks (not you evil Pharisees) as a Hen gathers her chicks but you would not ..... The leaders of Israel were so stiff necked that they opposed Gods ministering to the innocent , such so that this lead to their own destruction which is the tragedy ChRist is weeping over .

Harsher judgement upon those religious leaders who in their piety oppose the Work of God , God opposes the proud.
 
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janxharris

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How often would I have gathered your chicks (not you evil Pharisees) as a Hen gathers her chicks but you would not ..... The leaders of Israel were so stiff necked that they opposed Gods ministering to the innocent , such so that this lead to their own destruction which is the tragedy ChRist is weeping over .

Harsher judgement upon those religious leaders who in their piety oppose the Work of God , God opposes the proud.

Jesus shows how much he wants all men to believe in him (any man) in John 10:37-39 when he continues to urge belief even to those who have tried to stone him.
Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
 
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gmm4j

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Good day, Gmm

So you see that the will of the children does not matter.

Why is this Gathering the same as salvation, why do you equate the 2?

Gathering of a nation is not salvation?

If for sake of arugment it was you have the standing question, what happened to the will of the children, their leaders have no rights to decide for them where is thier free-wills?

The children are whom specificlly, whom are the leaders?

In Him,

Bill


Hey Bill,
What would the children be gathered to? You said the gathering of a nation. Is it the gathering of children, or the gathering of the nation? Knowing the will of the Father, would Jesus have really longed to gather the children to the point of weeping over them knowing that the Father, according to His pleasure, did not have the Spirit move upon the hearts of the leaders to let the children be gathered?
 
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Hey Bill,
What would the children be gathered to? You said the gathering of a nation. Is it the gathering of children, or the gathering of the nation? Knowing the will of the Father, would Jesus have really longed to gather the children to the point of weeping over them knowing that the Father, according to His pleasure, did not have the Spirit move upon the hearts of the leaders to let the children be gathered?

Good day, Gmm

In order to proceed it is important to get these group identified.

Whom /what are "her" chidren?
Whom / what is Jeruslaem?

You supose the will of the Father was to save them, so you equate the "gathering"with salvation, but you have yet to deal with the objects of the text.

So if you would please do so..

Thaanks,

Bill
 
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gmm4j

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Matt 23:37
[O Jerusalem ...] See the notes at Luke 19:41-42.
[Would I have gathered] Would have protected and saved.
[Thy children] Thy people.
(from Barnes' Notes)

Matt 23:34-39
(1.) The wonderful grace and favour of Jesus Christ toward them; How often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings! Thus kind and condescending are the offers of gospel grace, even to Jerusalem's children, bad as she is, the inhabitants, the little ones not excepted.
[1.] The favour proposed was the gathering of them. Christ's design is to gather poor souls, gather them in from their wanderings, gather them home to himself, as the Centre of unity; for to him must the gathering of the people be. He would have taken the whole body of the Jewish nation into the church, and so gathered them all (as the Jews used to speak of proselytes) under the wings of the Divine Majesty. It is here illustrated by a humble similitude; as a hen clucks her chickens together. Christ would have gathered them, First, With such a tenderness of affection as the hen does, which has, by instinct, a peculiar concern for her young ones. Christ's gathering of souls, comes from his love, Jer 31:3. Secondly, For the same end. The hen gathered her chickens under her wings, for protection and safety, and for warmth and comfort; poor souls have in Christ both refuge and refreshment. The chickens naturally run to the hen for shelter, when they are threatened by the birds of prey; perhaps Christ refers to that promise (Ps 91:4), He shall cover thee with his feathers. There is healing under Christ's wings (Mal 4:2); that is more than the hen has for her chickens. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole BibleCopyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

Matt 23:34-39
[3.] Their wilful refusal of this grace and favour; Ye would not. How emphatically is their obstinacy opposed to Christ's mercy! I would, and ye would not. He was willing to save them, but they were not willing to be saved by him. Note, It is wholly owing to the wicked wills of sinners, that they are not gathered under the wings of the Lord Jesus. They did not like the terms upon which Christ proposed to gather them; they loved their sins, and yet trusted to their righteousness; they would not submit either to the grace of Christ or to his government, and so the bargain broke off. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

Matt 23:37
[O Jerusalem, Jerusalem]
1. It is evident that our blessed Lord seriously and earnestly wished the salvation of the Jews.
2. That he did everything that could be done, consistently with his own perfections, and the liberty of his creatures, to effect this.
3. That his tears over the city, Luke 19:41, sufficiently evince his sincerity.
4. That these persons nevertheless perished. And
5. That the reason was, they would not be gathered together under his protection: therefore wrath, i.e. punishment, came upon them to the uttermost.
From this it is evident that there have been persons whom Christ wished to save, and bled to save, who notwithstanding perished, because they would not come unto him, John 5:40. The metaphor which our Lord uses here is a very beautiful one. When the hen sees a beast of prey coming, she makes a noise to assemble her chickens, that she may cover them with her wings from the danger. The Roman eagle is about to fall upon the Jewish state-nothing can prevent this but their conversion to God through Christ-Jesus cries throughout the land, publishing the Gospel of reconciliation-they would not assemble, and the Roman eagle came and destroyed them. The hen's affection to her brood is so very strong as to become proverbial. (from Adam Clarke's Commentary. Copyright (c) 1996 )

Matt 23:37
"Thee," truth-hating, mercy-spurning, prophet-killing Jerusalem-how often would I have gathered Thee! Compare with this that affecting clause in the great ministerial commission, "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nation, beginning at Jerusalem!" (Luke 24:47).
What encouragement to the heart-broken at their own long-continued and obstinate rebellion! But we have not yet gotten at the whole heart of this outburst I would have gathered thee, He says, "even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings." Was ever imagery so homely invested with such grace and such sublimity as this, at our Lord's touch? And yet how exquisite the figure itself-of protection, rest, warmth, and all manner of conscious well-being in those poor, defenseless, dependent little creatures, as they creep under and feel themselves overshadowed by the capacious and kindly wing of the mother-bird! If, wandering beyond hearing of her special call, they are overtaken by a storm or attacked by an enemy, what can they do but in the one case droop and die, and in the other submit to be torn in pieces! But if they can reach in time their place of safety, under the mother's wing, in vain will any enemy try to drag them thence. For rising into strength, kindling into fury, and forgetting herself entirely in her young, she will let the last drop of her blood be shed out and perish in defense of her precious charge, rather than yield them to an enemy's talons. How significant all this of what Jesus is and does for men! Under His great Mediatorial wing would He have "gathered" Israel. For the figure, see Deut 32:10-12; Ruth 2:12; Ps 17:8; 36:7; 61:4; 63:7; 91:4; Isa 31:5; Mal 4:2.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997)

Matt 23:37
(12) Where the mercy of God was greatest, it was there that there was the greatest wickedness and rebellion, and at length the sharpest judgments of God. z He speaks of the outward ministry, and as he was promised for the saving of this people, he was making sure that it would happen, even from the time that the promise was made to Abraham.
(from Geneva Notes, Copyright © 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Matt 23:37
The metaphor is peculiarly appropriate at the time, when, as Lange puts it, the Roman eagles were hovering near, and there was no hope of safety but under the Lord's wings. And ye would not. Unmoved by warning and chastisement, impenetrable to long suffering love, ungrateful for mercies, the Jews repulsed all efforts for their amendment, and blindly pursued the course of ruin. It was always in their power to turn if they willed, but they wilfully resisted grace, and must suffer accordingly (comp. Isa 30:15). (from The Pulpit Commentary, Copyright (c) 2001)

Matt 23:37
Your children, when used of a city, represents a Hebrew idiom in which the noun children is the equivalent of "inhabitants" (TEV "your people").
(from the UBS Handbook Series. Copyright (c) 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies)


This is what Calvin wrote about the "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem..." specific passage:

How often would I have gathered together thy children. This is expressive of indignation rather than of compassion. The city itself, indeed, over which he had lately wept, (Luke 19:41,) is still an object of his compassion; but towards the scribes, who were the authors of its destruction, he uses harshness and severity, as they deserved. And yet he does not spare the rest, who were all guilty of approving and partaking of the same crime, but, including all in the same condemnation, he inveighs chiefly against the leaders themselves, who were the cause of all the evils. We must now observe the vehemence of the discourse. If in Jerusalem the grace of God had been merely rejected, there would have been inexcusable ingratitude; but since God attempted to draw the Jews to himself by mild and gentle methods, and gained nothing by such kindness, the criminality of such haughty disdain was far more aggravated. There was likewise added unconquerable obstinacy; for not once and again did God wish to gather them together, but, by constant and uninterrupted advances, he sent to them the prophets, one after another, almost all of whom were rejected by the great body of the people. Commentary on Matthew, Mark, Luke - Volume 3 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Matt 23:37
[O Jerusalem ...] See the notes at Luke 19:41-42.
[Would I have gathered] Would have protected and saved.
[Thy children] Thy people.
(from Barnes' Notes)

Matt 23:34-39
(1.) The wonderful grace and favour of Jesus Christ toward them; How often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings! Thus kind and condescending are the offers of gospel grace, even to Jerusalem's children, bad as she is, the inhabitants, the little ones not excepted.
[1.] The favour proposed was the gathering of them. Christ's design is to gather poor souls, gather them in from their wanderings, gather them home to himself, as the Centre of unity; for to him must the gathering of the people be. He would have taken the whole body of the Jewish nation into the church, and so gathered them all (as the Jews used to speak of proselytes) under the wings of the Divine Majesty. It is here illustrated by a humble similitude; as a hen clucks her chickens together. Christ would have gathered them, First, With such a tenderness of affection as the hen does, which has, by instinct, a peculiar concern for her young ones. Christ's gathering of souls, comes from his love, Jer 31:3. Secondly, For the same end. The hen gathered her chickens under her wings, for protection and safety, and for warmth and comfort; poor souls have in Christ both refuge and refreshment. The chickens naturally run to the hen for shelter, when they are threatened by the birds of prey; perhaps Christ refers to that promise (Ps 91:4), He shall cover thee with his feathers. There is healing under Christ's wings (Mal 4:2); that is more than the hen has for her chickens. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole BibleCopyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

Matt 23:34-39
[3.] Their wilful refusal of this grace and favour; Ye would not. How emphatically is their obstinacy opposed to Christ's mercy! I would, and ye would not. He was willing to save them, but they were not willing to be saved by him. Note, It is wholly owing to the wicked wills of sinners, that they are not gathered under the wings of the Lord Jesus. They did not like the terms upon which Christ proposed to gather them; they loved their sins, and yet trusted to their righteousness; they would not submit either to the grace of Christ or to his government, and so the bargain broke off. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

Matt 23:37
[O Jerusalem, Jerusalem]
1. It is evident that our blessed Lord seriously and earnestly wished the salvation of the Jews.
2. That he did everything that could be done, consistently with his own perfections, and the liberty of his creatures, to effect this.
3. That his tears over the city, Luke 19:41, sufficiently evince his sincerity.
4. That these persons nevertheless perished. And
5. That the reason was, they would not be gathered together under his protection: therefore wrath, i.e. punishment, came upon them to the uttermost.
From this it is evident that there have been persons whom Christ wished to save, and bled to save, who notwithstanding perished, because they would not come unto him, John 5:40. The metaphor which our Lord uses here is a very beautiful one. When the hen sees a beast of prey coming, she makes a noise to assemble her chickens, that she may cover them with her wings from the danger. The Roman eagle is about to fall upon the Jewish state-nothing can prevent this but their conversion to God through Christ-Jesus cries throughout the land, publishing the Gospel of reconciliation-they would not assemble, and the Roman eagle came and destroyed them. The hen's affection to her brood is so very strong as to become proverbial. (from Adam Clarke's Commentary. Copyright (c) 1996 )

Matt 23:37
"Thee," truth-hating, mercy-spurning, prophet-killing Jerusalem-how often would I have gathered Thee! Compare with this that affecting clause in the great ministerial commission, "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nation, beginning at Jerusalem!" (Luke 24:47).
What encouragement to the heart-broken at their own long-continued and obstinate rebellion! But we have not yet gotten at the whole heart of this outburst I would have gathered thee, He says, "even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings." Was ever imagery so homely invested with such grace and such sublimity as this, at our Lord's touch? And yet how exquisite the figure itself-of protection, rest, warmth, and all manner of conscious well-being in those poor, defenseless, dependent little creatures, as they creep under and feel themselves overshadowed by the capacious and kindly wing of the mother-bird! If, wandering beyond hearing of her special call, they are overtaken by a storm or attacked by an enemy, what can they do but in the one case droop and die, and in the other submit to be torn in pieces! But if they can reach in time their place of safety, under the mother's wing, in vain will any enemy try to drag them thence. For rising into strength, kindling into fury, and forgetting herself entirely in her young, she will let the last drop of her blood be shed out and perish in defense of her precious charge, rather than yield them to an enemy's talons. How significant all this of what Jesus is and does for men! Under His great Mediatorial wing would He have "gathered" Israel. For the figure, see Deut 32:10-12; Ruth 2:12; Ps 17:8; 36:7; 61:4; 63:7; 91:4; Isa 31:5; Mal 4:2.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997)

Matt 23:37
(12) Where the mercy of God was greatest, it was there that there was the greatest wickedness and rebellion, and at length the sharpest judgments of God. z He speaks of the outward ministry, and as he was promised for the saving of this people, he was making sure that it would happen, even from the time that the promise was made to Abraham.
(from Geneva Notes, Copyright © 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Matt 23:37
The metaphor is peculiarly appropriate at the time, when, as Lange puts it, the Roman eagles were hovering near, and there was no hope of safety but under the Lord's wings. And ye would not. Unmoved by warning and chastisement, impenetrable to long suffering love, ungrateful for mercies, the Jews repulsed all efforts for their amendment, and blindly pursued the course of ruin. It was always in their power to turn if they willed, but they wilfully resisted grace, and must suffer accordingly (comp. Isa 30:15). (from The Pulpit Commentary, Copyright (c) 2001)

Matt 23:37
Your children, when used of a city, represents a Hebrew idiom in which the noun children is the equivalent of "inhabitants" (TEV "your people").
(from the UBS Handbook Series. Copyright (c) 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies)


This is what Calvin wrote about the "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem..." specific passage:

How often would I have gathered together thy children. This is expressive of indignation rather than of compassion. The city itself, indeed, over which he had lately wept, (Luke 19:41,) is still an object of his compassion; but towards the scribes, who were the authors of its destruction, he uses harshness and severity, as they deserved. And yet he does not spare the rest, who were all guilty of approving and partaking of the same crime, but, including all in the same condemnation, he inveighs chiefly against the leaders themselves, who were the cause of all the evils. We must now observe the vehemence of the discourse. If in Jerusalem the grace of God had been merely rejected, there would have been inexcusable ingratitude; but since God attempted to draw the Jews to himself by mild and gentle methods, and gained nothing by such kindness, the criminality of such haughty disdain was far more aggravated. There was likewise added unconquerable obstinacy; for not once and again did God wish to gather them together, but, by constant and uninterrupted advances, he sent to them the prophets, one after another, almost all of whom were rejected by the great body of the people. Commentary on Matthew, Mark, Luke - Volume 3 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Very nice copy and paste...

Could you please telll me when you read the text who are the groups being addressed, just plain and simple.

Her Children are?
"She" Jerusalem is?

Let's be clear here he is gathering the children and not Jerusalem, some of the commenties you pasted seem to suggest other wise.

Why would he not gather Jerusalem, but only here children


Thanks,

Bill
 
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Very nice copy and paste...

Could you please telll me when you read the text who are the groups being addressed, just plain and simple.

Her Children are?
"She" Jerusalem is?

Thanks,

Bill


For fun I'm going to agree with the commentaries and say all its inhabitants. Now, finally, school us on what the right answer is that Calvin, Matthew Henry, Barnes, etc... didn't know.
 
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