Jesus was not an Arminian

[cygnusx1]

If elect believers were in Christ prior to earth or Adam being created, then they were justified before they were condemned in Adam. This is not possible. The elect were first condemned in Adam and afterwards justified in Christ.

The Greek preposition "ev" means "on the basis of" and indicates the grounds of our election and is NOT a statement about union with Him at all.

"According as He chose us on the basis of Him before the foundation of the world."

Who mentioned "eternal" justification ?

We are justified by faith , or more literally "through faith" because of grace

The subject of justification I don't remember raising

 

[cygnusx1]

2 Tim 1:9

[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Jack Terrence]

Who mentioned "eternal" justification ?

You imply eternal justification.

 

[cygnusx1]

You imply eternal justification.

Imply ? You mean I don't so much as say it but you think I imply it , mmmmmm

 

[Jack Terrence]

2 Tim 1:9

[9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The "world" in view is the new covenant age,

9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the new covenant age began.

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary the PRIMARY meaning of the word "kosmos" (world) is "order or arrangement." It is the new order that Paul has is in view. This is in harmony the clear teaching that the elect were condemned in Adam before they were justified. But if they were in union with Christ prior to the creation of the earth and of Adam, then they were justified before they were condemned.

Let's apply Vine's primary meaning of the word "kosmos" to Rev. 13:8:

The Lamb slain before the foundation of the new order

Is it not historically accurate to say that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the new age rather than before the creation of the earth and of Adam?

My years of discourse with Arminians have taught me how to work out all the inconsistencies in my Calvinist views.

 

[cygnusx1]

The "world" in view is the new covenant age,

9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the new covenant age began.

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary the PRIMARY meaning of the word "kosmos" (world) is "order or arrangement." It is the new order that Paul has is in view. This is in harmony the clear teaching that the elect were condemned in Adam before they were justified. But if they were in union with Christ prior to the creation of the earth and of Adam, then they were justified before they were condemned.

Let's apply Vine's primary meaning of the word "kosmos" to Rev. 13:8:

The Lamb slain before the foundation of the new order

Is it not historically accurate to say that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the new age rather than before the creation of the earth and of Adam?

My years of discourse with Arminians have taught me how to work out all the inconsistencies in my Calvinist views.

The mystical union between Christ and His seed is beyond time , the elect are viewed as belonging , proceeding , united with Christ in eternity , consider the marriage state is there not a union , a deep mystery , of Christ and the Church reflected in Adam and Eve ? They are one , this is even prior to their physical union "marriage" , Eve was taken from Adam , even so the Church is Christ's body , always has been , it is a mystical union , read Pink , Gill and Thomas Goodwin .

 

[Jack Terrence]

The mystical union between Christ and His seed is beyond time ,

There is no such thing as a "mystical union" with Christ. The scripture knows only of our covenantal union with Christ which began with the shedding of the blood of the covenant. His blood was shed before the foundation of the new order and not before the creation of the earth and of Adam.

the elect are viewed as belonging , proceeding , united with Christ in eternity

Circular. This view assumes that the expression "before the foundation of the world" means "before all eternity." It does not. It means "before the foundation of the new order."

consider the marriage state is there not a union , a deep mystery , of Christ and the Church reflected in Adam and Eve ?

The marriage union is not a "mystical" union. Neither is it "deep mystery." It is a covenantal union that has a beginning. All cultures understand this.

We were married to Adam. Our union with Adam was dissolved when we died to the law. This freed us to be married to another which is Christ.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

We were first married to and divorced from Adam. Then we were married to Christ. Our divorce and re-marriage occurred before the foundation of the new order and not before the creation of the earth and of Adam.

If a child cannot understand it then it's wrong.

 

[Skala]

Gmm4, you are confusing things together, which is probably why you are, um, confused.

God setting his covenental love upon us from eternity past is not the same as being justified by faith in Christ.

God, in eternity past, choosing to "know us" so that he can predestine and justify and glorify us is not the same as already being saved.

 

[Jack Terrence]

What Christ would do for them was done for them in God before the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No! Paul said that God sent forth His Son in the "fulness of time" (Galatians 4:4).

Rev 13:8
Lamb slain from the foundation of the age (i.e., the new covenant age)

 

[Jack Terrence]

What Christ would do for them was done for them in God before the foundation of the world.

There was nothing "done" until Christ "made good the promises."

"Christ became a servant of the Jewish people to maintain the truth of God by making good the promises to the patriarchs...." Romans 15:8 NEB

 

[gmm4j]

There was nothing "done" until Christ "made good the promises."

"Christ became a servant of the Jewish people to maintain the truth of God by making good the promises to the patriarchs...." Romans 15:8 NEB

Rev 13:8
the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[cygnusx1]

There is no such thing as a "mystical union" with Christ. The scripture knows only of our covenantal union with Christ which began with the shedding of the blood of the covenant. His blood was shed before the foundation of the new order and not before the creation of the earth and of Adam.


Circular. This view assumes that the expression "before the foundation of the world" means "before all eternity." It does not. It means "before the foundation of the new order."


The marriage union is not a "mystical" union. Neither is it "deep mystery." It is a covenantal union that has a beginning. All cultures understand this.

We were married to Adam. Our union with Adam was dissolved when we died to the law. This freed us to be married to another which is Christ.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

We were first married to and divorced from Adam. Then we were married to Christ. Our divorce and re-marriage occurred before the foundation of the new order and not before the creation of the earth and of Adam.

If a child cannot understand it then it's wrong.

Got to be one of the worst posts I ever read , are you Reformed ? I can't see it !

You even confuse widowed with divorce !!! How absurd.

 

[Arcoe]

Got to be one of the worst posts I ever read , are you Reformed ? I can't see it !

You even confuse widowed with divorce !!! How absurd.

You are seeing total free-will in action, if you but only put aside your Calvinist-colored glasses.

 

[cygnusx1]

You are seeing total free-will in action, if you but only put aside your Calvinist-colored glasses.

I don't see too well without my glasses , I once was blind but now I see

 

[Jack Terrence]

Got to be one of the worst posts I ever read , are you Reformed ? I can't see it !

You even confuse widowed with divorce !!! How absurd.

Denying is not refuting. Yes I am Reformed. I believe that our election was UNCONDITIONAL.

You are the one confusing things. Paul said that WE died and not that our former husband (Adam) died. So we were not widowed. We legally died which meant that we divorced our former husband.

Explain how could we could have been married to Christ from eternity when He is our SECOND husband?

 

[Jack Terrence]

You are seeing total free-will in action, if you but only put aside your Calvinist-colored glasses.

I was NOT defending free will. Election is UNCONDITIONAL. But our election occurred in time and not in eternity.

 

[cygnusx1]

I was NOT defending free will. Election is UNCONDITIONAL. But our election occurred in time and not in eternity.

Now where have I heard that before , was it van , holdon or Ben Johnson ?

 

[JackSparrow]

.....
My years of discourse with Arminians have taught me how to work out all the inconsistencies in my Calvinist views.

Could you list these inconsistencies. It might save repeated posts and threads.

 

[Shulamite]

The mystical union between Christ and His seed is beyond time , the elect are viewed as belonging , proceeding , united with Christ in eternity , consider the marriage state is there not a union , a deep mystery , of Christ and the Church reflected in Adam and Eve ? They are one , this is even prior to their physical union "marriage" , Eve was taken from Adam , even so the Church is Christ's body , always has been , it is a mystical union , read Pink , Gill and Thomas Goodwin .

Amen. Adam (the entire man) was a physical "type" of Jesus, the "2nd Adam".
Eve was IN Adam before the Lord extracted her from him. That is why Paul states that if a man loves his wife, he is literally loving "himself". Very deep indeed. Just as Adam was put into a deep sleep to extract Eve from his own being, so are we, the bride/church, come from Jesus own being. We are literally flesh of His flesh, bone of His bone. Addam and Eve were together as one person, being, before the Lord separated them into two. This is the way it is with Christ and His people. Amazing.

 

[gmm4j]

Gmm4, you are confusing things together, which is probably why you are, um, confused. God setting his covenental love upon us from eternity past is not the same as being justified by faith in Christ.
God, in eternity past, choosing to "know us" so that he can predestine and justify and glorify us is not the same as already being saved.

Who mentioned "eternal" justification ?
We are justified by faith , or more literally "through faith" because of grace
The subject of justification I don't remember raising

.