What exactly is the law?

[WailingWall]

When we are saved by grace are we considered sinless or not? Did the Law save us or not?

By the keeping of the law will no one be saved. Only by grace through faith will you be saved. It is a free gift. But to whom will this gift be given? Will it be given to those who practice righteousness or those who practice iniquity?

 

[Sophrosyne]

This would be true if the purpose of grace was forgiveness only. But the truth is that we can flee to grace to keep from sinning. "Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more". The only purpose of the law is to show what we should "look like" if we were righteous- but it has no power to effect that change in us itself. Only grace- only God, not man- can make that happen.

I don't see it. Grace isn't to keep from sinning it is forgiveness from previous sin and future sin via trust in the one who administers grace. The Holy Spirit empowers us to resist sin if we listen to him. The Law doesn't give us this "look like" at all God was righteous without the Law so it is UNNEEDED as an example. Our example is God himself not the Law at all. We are to walk in love not in the Law that is our example of what to "look like".

 

[Sophrosyne]

By the keeping of the law will no one be saved. Only by grace through faith will you be saved. It is a free gift. But to whom will this gift be given? Will it be given to those who practice righteousness or those who practice iniquity?

Nonsense, you have people that cannot be saved UNTIL they start keeping the Law which is contrary to the Gospel. The Gospel says we are saved while IN SIN... (lawbreakers, not lawkeepers).
Grace IS given to those who practice iniquity because THEY are the ones that NEED it. I do however say that once someone who truly believes accepts grace they will desire to practice iniquity less but they will still sin (and in some cases do things contrary to the Law).

 

[WailingWall]

the Law does nothing for us but leads us around in circles confusing us about sin and our relationship to God.

The law {the 10 commandments} does not lead us in circles. But it does show our relationship to God.


MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

PSALMS 119 [113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.[114] Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.[115] DEPART FROM ME, YE EVILDOERS: FOR I WILL KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MY GOD.[116] Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Depart from me! Seems there will be many people who will be saying “I believe” when Jesus returns. Who had talked of Jesus and spoke in his name. Some that even have cast out devils in the name of Jesus. But “in that day” Jesus will say to “the many”, depart from me...I never knew you.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people who know God and will given the free gift. They that observe to keep Gods 10 commandments. Read the 4th. Remember....

TITUS 1 [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, AND DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.

In Titus you will find people that profess they know God (they say they believe) but in works they deny Him. They do not know God.

 

[fhansen]

I don't see it. Grace isn't to keep from sinning it is forgiveness from previous sin and future sin via trust in the one who administers grace. The Holy Spirit empowers us to resist sin if we listen to him. The Law doesn't give us this "look like" at all God was righteous without the Law so it is UNNEEDED as an example. Our example is God himself not the Law at all. We are to walk in love not in the Law that is our example of what to "look like".

Yes, the law shows us, in basic terms, what it looks like to love. But only God can cause us to love as He desires us to, as we need to in order to refrain from sinning-in order to obey His law for man, in order to simply be who He created us to be. 'Love fulfills the law'. Rom 13:8. It doesn't replace the law; it simply fulfills it, but the right way, by the Spirit rather than by the letter. This is the purpose of grace. 'With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible'. 'Apart from Me you can do nothing'-the New Covenant in a nutshell.

Following Christ is more than following an example; it's to have His life in us, to commune with God. This is what is missing in man-what his injustice consists of-this is what Jesus came to reconcile via the Atonement. IOW, man doesn't need to fulfill the law in order to be at one with God, rather man must first of all be at one with God in order to fulfill His law. This is the relationship that Adam shattered and no amount of law-observance or putting on a pretense of holiness will change that fact.

 

[WailingWall]

We are to walk in love not in the Law

Uhhh....read scriptures below

1 JOHN 3 [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Your tryin to tell me we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin new testament commandments that we are now to follow. In 1John3 we find one of those new testament commandments. It tells us we are to love one another. Does the new testament tell us how we are to love one another?

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure ill hear next that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored. YIKES

 

[Sophrosyne]

The law {the 10 commandments} does not lead us in circles. But it does show our relationship to God.

No, the Law doesn't show us our relationship to God because it is not mentioned in many relationships to God in the Bible but is surprisingly ABSENT from such relationships that is has to be IMPLIED to it having existed in such situations by word games.

 

[bugkiller]

By the keeping of the law will no one be saved. Only by grace through faith will you be saved. It is a free gift. But to whom will this gift be given? Will it be given to those who practice righteousness or those who practice iniquity?

So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Nonsense, you have people that cannot be saved UNTIL they start keeping the Law which is contrary to the Gospel. The Gospel says we are saved while IN SIN... (lawbreakers, not lawkeepers).
Grace IS given to those who practice iniquity because THEY are the ones that NEED it. I do however say that once someone who truly believes accepts grace they will desire to practice iniquity less but they will still sin (and in some cases do things contrary to the Law).

Well said.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?

bugkiller

I forgot to mention... how does one "practice" righteousness?
The only way I can think of is BY FAITH.

 

[WailingWall]

No, the Law doesn't show us our relationship to God because it is not mentioned in many relationships to God in the Bible but is surprisingly ABSENT from such relationships that is has to be IMPLIED to it having existed in such situations by word games.

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I guess i dont understand your meaning of the word "relationship"

 

[WailingWall]

I forgot to mention... how does one "practice" righteousness?
The only way I can think of is BY FAITH.

Go to post 254. Many scriptures to answer your question

 

[bugkiller]

The law {the 10 commandments} does not lead us in circles. But it does show our relationship to God.


MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

PSALMS 119 [113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.[114] Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.[115] DEPART FROM ME, YE EVILDOERS: FOR I WILL KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MY GOD.[116] Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Depart from me! Seems there will be many people who will be saying “I believe” when Jesus returns. Who had talked of Jesus and spoke in his name. Some that even have cast out devils in the name of Jesus. But “in that day” Jesus will say to “the many”, depart from me...I never knew you.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people who know God and will given the free gift. They that observe to keep Gods 10 commandments. Read the 4th. Remember....

TITUS 1 [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, AND DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.

In Titus you will find people that profess they know God (they say they believe) but in works they deny Him. They do not know God.

Read Jer 31:31-34 and the Gospels Mat 26:28, MK 14:24, and LK 22:20.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I guess i dont understand your meaning of the word "relationship"

Here we go with the word games again... there are only two commandments John talks about Love God and love your neighbor. Love is easily a part of any close relationship but you want to demand rules and regulations in a relationship which isn't normally valid unless we have a master/slave or employer/employee type relationship.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Go to post 254. Many scriptures to answer your question

No... if you can't express it as I have without running around cutting and pasting out of context scriptures I don't want to backtrack to read it.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, the law shows us, in basic terms, what it looks like to love. But only God can cause us to love as He desires us to, as we need to in order to refrain from sinning-in order to obey His law for man, in order to simply be who He created us to be. 'Love fulfills the law'. Rom 13:8. It doesn't replace the law; it simply fulfills it, but the right way, by the Spirit rather than by the letter. This is the purpose of grace. 'With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible'. 'Apart from Me you can do nothing'-the New Covenant in a nutshell.

Following Christ is more than following an example; it's to have His life in us, to commune with God. This is what is missing in man-what his injustice consists of-this is what Jesus came to reconcile via the Atonement. IOW, man doesn't need to fulfill the law in order to be at one with God, rather man must first of all be at one with God in order to fulfill His law. This is the relationship that Adam shattered and no amount of law-observance or putting on a pretense of holiness will change that fact.

To apply the verses you quote and apply in the manner you do violates the OT Scripture as well as the NT Scripture.


bugkiller

 

[WailingWall]

So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?

bugkiller

Nah {opinion}. We all sin and sin is the transgression of the law. If we do not OBSERVE to keep the 10, thats a whole new story.

PROVERBS 28 [4] They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. [7] Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father. [9] HE THAT TURNETH AWAY HIS EAR FROM HEARING THE LAW, EVEN HIS PRAYER SHALL BE ABOMINATION. [13] He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. [18] WHOSO WALKETH UPRIGHTLY SHALL BE SAVED

 

[fhansen]

So can failure to obey the law prevent or rescind one's salvation?

bugkiller

Of course.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal 5:19-5-23

Why does Paul tell us there is no law against the fruits of the Spirit? Because there is law against the works of the flesh.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10

The law can’t make us just, but it still gives us a good idea of what a just man-the man who loves via abiding in the Spirit- would do or not do.

 

[fhansen]

To apply the verses you quote and apply in the manner you do violates the OT Scripture as well as the NT Scripture.


bugkiller

unsupported speculation-unless you care to elaborate

 

[WailingWall]

No... if you can't express it as I have without running around cutting and pasting out of context scriptures I don't want to backtrack to read it.

No thanks. I cant remember the last time you posted a scripture. Many opinions...no scripture. I prefer scripture over opinion.