truth of the "rapture"

[seeking Christ]

It is, of the APOCALYPTIC genre of books in the bible . . the strongest of them all.

What other books of the Bible are apocalyptic?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What other books of the Bible are apocalyptic?

The visions in Daniel (chapters 7 to 12) are apocalyptic and many non-canonical books from old testament times are too.

Wikipedia lists these Non-canonical

• Apocalypse of Abraham
• Apocalypse of Adam
• Apocalypse of Baruch (Greek)
• Apocalypse of Baruch (Syriac)
• Apocalypse of Daniel
• Apocalypse of Daniel (Greek)
• Apocalypse of Elijah
• Apocalypse of Ezra (Greek)
• Gabriel's Revelation
• Apocalypse of Lamech
• Apocalypse of Metatron
• Apocalypse of Moses
• Apocalypse of Sedrach
• Apocalypse of Zephaniah
• Apocalypse of Zerubbabel
• Aramaic Apocalypse

 

[ViaCrucis]

Several other points to strengthen your argument.

1. The early church through the 3rd century was chiliast (pre-mil). All believed in the 1000 years reign of Christ. This makes the amil position one that was not taught by the apostles.

You're over-selling it. Chiliasm was popular in the first few centuries, but it wasn't the view. We do find it in the writings of Fathers such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Justin; not so much Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others. Even St. Justin, a Chiliast himself, says this in the Dialogue:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch 80

Chiliasm and Amillennialism happily coexisted within the early centuries of the Church.

2. All agree that there will be a rapture meaning all believers alive at the time of the rapture will be caught up in the clouds with Jesus. Those that do not believe in a rapture are not reading their bibles. The argument is between a pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture.

What the Fathers confess is that we shall be gathered to Christ at His coming. As this is what St. Paul says in his first epistle to the Thessalonians. What they never mention is the modern notion that Christians will be beamed up into heaven. Even Chiliasts such as Justin and Irenaeus are clear that they expect the Church to be present, to face the rage of Antichrist. E.g.:

"It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight." - Against Heresies, V.26.1

3. The concept of the rapture is ancient and was not developed by Darby as some like to claim. There is extant mss evidence from the 4th century.

The problem is that there doesn't exist anything substantial to support this notion. The usual offerings from Irenaeus and Pseudo-Ephaem don't stand up to the barest amount of scrutiny. The usual quote from Irenaeus is twisted and ripped from the entirety of what he suggests--including the above mentioned where he understands the Church to be present, enduring through Antichrist's reign. The problem with Pseudo-Ephraem is even greater, primarily because the authentic Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem looks nothing like the Latin-to-English translation floating around the internet by Cameron Rhoades.

4. Those that deny a tribulation are also not reading their bibles since Matthew, Mark, Paul, and John explain ti quite well.

What all the Gospels are rather clear on is that our Lord prophesied the destruction of the Jerusalem which took place in the year 70, and that when He came it would be an unexpected and obvious thing. It will be as lightning flashing from east to west. There will be no doubts, no second guesses, no beaming of Christians into heaven to be followed by a seven year tribulation. When our Lord comes, it is in the glory of God the Father to judge the living and the dead. Otherwise it makes no sense for our Lord, in St. John's Gospel, to say explicitly that He will raise us up on the Last Day. Likewise, it makes no sense to hear what the Apostle says in his epistles, such as to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15, or to the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 4. The resurrection of the dead happens at the Parousia, and not a moment sooner--this same Parousia which means the subjection of all things to the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

What other books of the Bible are apocalyptic?

Portions of Daniel. Ezekiel is often, in addition to being counted one of the Prophets, seen at times as an early example of apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gnarwhal]

You're over-selling it. Chiliasm was popular in the first few centuries, but it wasn't the view. We do find it in the writings of Fathers such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Justin; not so much Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others. Even St. Justin, a Chiliast himself, says this in the Dialogue:

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch 80

Chiliasm and Amillennialism happily coexisted within the early centuries of the Church.

What the Fathers confess is that we shall be gathered to Christ at His coming. As this is what St. Paul says in his first epistle to the Thessalonians. What they never mention is the modern notion that Christians will be beamed up into heaven. Even Chiliasts such as Justin and Irenaeus are clear that they expect the Church to be present, to face the rage of Antichrist. E.g.:

"It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight." - Against Heresies, V.26.1

The problem is that there doesn't exist anything substantial to support this notion. The usual offerings from Irenaeus and Pseudo-Ephaem don't stand up to the barest amount of scrutiny. The usual quote from Irenaeus is twisted and ripped from the entirety of what he suggests--including the above mentioned where he understands the Church to be present, enduring through Antichrist's reign. The problem with Pseudo-Ephraem is even greater, primarily because the authentic Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem looks nothing like the Latin-to-English translation floating around the internet by Cameron Rhoades.

What all the Gospels are rather clear on is that our Lord prophesied the destruction of the Jerusalem which took place in the year 70, and that when He came it would be an unexpected and obvious thing. It will be as lightning flashing from east to west. There will be no doubts, no second guesses, no beaming of Christians into heaven to be followed by a seven year tribulation. When our Lord comes, it is in the glory of God the Father to judge the living and the dead. Otherwise it makes no sense for our Lord, in St. John's Gospel, to say explicitly that He will raise us up on the Last Day. Likewise, it makes no sense to hear what the Apostle says in his epistles, such as to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15, or to the Thessalonians in 1 Thessalonians 4. The resurrection of the dead happens at the Parousia, and not a moment sooner--this same Parousia which means the subjection of all things to the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

Agreed, well said. It's like St. Vincent of Lérins said: "We must hold fast to that faith that has been believed everywhere, always and by all." As you've pointed out, chiliasm did coexist with amillennialism but it's clear (as per the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed) that it didn't meet the criteria that St. Vincent speaks of.

As far as the Orthodox position on the matter, I found this podcast series very compelling if anybody is interested in taking the time (they're about an hour each).

1. The End Times, Pt. I

2. The End Times, Pt. II - Church History

3. The End Times, Pt. III - Rapture, Dispensationalism and Zionism

4. The End Times, Pt. IV - 666, Antichrist and the Beast

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yeah .. about that . the passage that speaks of a snatching away is talking about the resurrection . the rapture was a new teaching in the 1800s that lead to a number of adventists groups forming prophetic doctrines without fruit . and lately its been floating around in the new age movement as something called "ascension"

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Another passage in the gospels that speaks of people being taken away (two then one is left) .. seems to imply its actually people that are exceptionally bad that will be taken away . as if by a calamity .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The fruit surrounding rapture theory seems to be accompanied by confusion regardless of who looks at it . post mid pre "trib"

where trib is a fictional account of the currently existing state of the nation of israel having some 7 year period where the antichrist declares war on them after a peace treaty. it's all very interesting .. but it is quite obvious the power behind Israel's government is the United States of America . not God .

rapture theory is not in the bible . its something else that infiltrated the church from outside . the idea of beam me up scotty is about as disasterous as trying to equate the mayan prophecies and the sixth seal of revelation .. just doesn't work.

The idea of a rapture is just reflectant of the modern human's tendency to think God would rescue them from persecution .. when he hasn't done that for any other gospel generation .. it just doesn't add up .

 

[thereselittleflower]

What other books of the Bible are apocalyptic?

The Old Testament has books portions of which contain apocalyptic writing - Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah to name a few.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yeah .. about that . the passage that speaks of a snatching away is talking about the resurrection . the rapture was a new teaching in the 1800s that lead to a number of adventists groups forming prophetic doctrines without fruit . and lately its been floating around in the new age movement as something called "ascension"

That's even scarier. Millenialism, or millenarianism, has been denounced as heresey by the Catholic Church since She rejected it for good reason as already shown. Whenever it has popped up since, it has been always on the fringe of christianity, as Darby was, and associated with strange ideas. Now it's being associated with "ascension" a very gnostic, new age belief. It has never been accepted into mainstream chrsitianity.

Those who hold to the rapture ideas of Darby et al tend to think their view is the majority view, yet, in reality, it has only found a real foothold among a minority of christains even in the US and a few other countries, and has nothing to do with the vast numer of Christiains in the world. Those who have been livinin through great persecution view this dispensatinal teaching as nonsense, living in great tribulation themselves as have christians in every generation, they understand this not about some future event but the expereince of Christians now.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeah .. about that . the passage that speaks of a snatching away is talking about the resurrection . the rapture was a new teaching in the 1800s that lead to a number of adventists groups forming prophetic doctrines without fruit . and lately its been floating around in the new age movement as something called "ascension"

Like in the Star Gate television series?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Cite a single ECF prior to the third century that was not chiliast.

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch 80



The Dialogue with Trypho is a second-century Christian apologetic text, documenting the attempts by theologian Justin Martyr to show that Christianity is the new law for all men, and to prove from Scripture that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah


Dialogue with Trypho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

As I and others have said, this was not at all the view of the Church, and it fell out of favor for reasons already cited. It was not even a majority view of the Early Church, and it is obvious no one can justly make the claim the Early Church was chiliast.

 

[DeaconDean]

rapture theory is not in the bible . its something else that infiltrated the church from outside .

If its "not in the bible" and "infiltrated the church from outside" what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen 5:24 (KJV)

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." -2 Kgs. 2:11 (KJV)

Is that not a "rapture" (i.e.: catching away as Paul puts it)?

One of the tenantws of Protestantism is "justification by faith".

Just because something wasn't taught specifically 2000 years ago, does not make it heresy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[thereselittleflower]

If its "not in the bible" and "infiltrated the church from outside" what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen 5:24 (KJV)

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." -2 Kgs. 2:11 (KJV)

Is that not a "rapture" (i.e.: catching away as Paul puts it)?

One of the tenantws of Protestantism is "justification by faith".

Just because something was taught specifically 2000 years ago, does not make it heresy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

What happened to Enoch and Eljah has nothing to do with Dary and his teaching of a rapture associated with a great tribulation.

Just because God can translate people does not mean Darby's teachings on the "Rapture" were correct.

Hijacking a word and making a docrtrine of it does not invalidate the word, neither does the word validate the doctrine.

 

[Hentenza]

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch 80



The Dialogue with Trypho is a second-century Christian apologetic text, documenting the attempts by theologian Justin Martyr to show that Christianity is the new law for all men, and to prove from Scripture that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah


Dialogue with Trypho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

As I and others have said, this was not at all the view of the Church, and it fell out of favor for reasons already cited. It was not even a majority view of the Early Church, and it is obvious no one can justly make the claim the Early Church was chiliast.

What are you trying to show with the dialogue with Trypho? Nothing in the text that you cited addresses chiliasm? Justin Martyr was a chiliast.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Michael Collum

rapture theory is not in the bible . its something else that infiltrated the church from outside
​

What happened to Enoch and Eljah has nothing to do with Dary and his teaching of a rapture associated with a great tribulation.

Just because God can translate people does not mean Darby's teachings on the "Rapture" were correct.

Hijacking a word and making a docrtrine of it does not invalidate the word, neither does the word validate the doctrine.

It is also a Dispensationalism teaching, as was brought up in these 2 posts:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7718096-11/#post62234467

http://www.christianforums.com/t7718096-11/#post62234228

 

[DeaconDean]

What happened to Enoch and Eljah has nothing to do with Dary and his teaching of a rapture associated with a great tribulation.

Just because God can translate people does not mean Darby's teachings on the "Rapture" were correct.

Hijacking a word and making a docrtrine of it does not invalidate the word, neither does the word validate the doctrine.

You know sister, I haven't seen you around in a while, and I'm kinda glad your back. And I was wondering how long it was gonna take before you singled me out for one of my posts.

Anyway, good to see you back.

I never said that what happened to Enoch or Elijah had anything to do with John Nelson Darby.



I merely stated that a "rapture" of sorts has already happened in the examples of:

1. Enoch
2. Elijah
3. The Resurrected Saints of Mt. 27:52

If I take your word for it, after a certain period of time, God quit revealing anything.

As a Baptist, justification by Faith, a tenant of Baptist views, is a realitively new "revelation", and according to some its almost heresy.

Yet it was almost unheard of until the 1500's. And now, its widely accepted.

So just because it was revealed specifically at a certain period of time, don't mean a thing.

And the fact is, Enoch and Elijah were "raptured", "being caught up" by God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If its "not in the bible" and "infiltrated the church from outside" what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen 5:24 (KJV)

"And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." -2 Kgs. 2:11 (KJV)

Is that not a "rapture" (i.e.: catching away as Paul puts it)?

One of the tenantws of Protestantism is "justification by faith".

Just because something wasn't taught specifically 2000 years ago, does not make it heresy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So because God took Elijah straight up to heaven on a chariot of fire, that means Jesus is going beam all Christians into heaven just before a seven year tribulational period?

I fail to see the connection.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WailingWall]

Jesus taught on his second coming. This second coming is referred to the "Day of the Lord". This word "day" means epoch or season. It lasts more than a literal day. It's when God's judgments will be thrown onto the earth against lawlessness and rebellion. It is when the wrath of God will come upon all who live on the earth. It precedes when the Lord will return physically and reign for 1000 years. It's a 7 year tribulation period where the anti-Christ is introduced, and the beast.

MATTHEW 24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, and THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Right AFTER the tribulation period the sun shall be darkened and the moon wont be shining.

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

Do the math. The Day of the Lord does not begin till the tribulation period is over

 

[DeaconDean]

So because God took Elijah straight up to heaven on a chariot of fire, that means Jesus is going beam all Christians into heaven just before a seven year tribulational period?

I fail to see the connection.

-CryptoLutheran

I'll not get into this with you.

Like I said, I was merely pointing out that a "rapture", "being caught up" has already happened as recored in the scriptures.

God Bless

Till all are one.