Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[Ashlantal]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

 

[Hentenza]

1 Cor. 3

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


If he has saving faith (a foundation in Jesus Christ) then he is saved. If he has nominal faith (a mere assent with no change of life) then he was not saved to begin with.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

OSAS forgets that our redemption is a pilgrimage . being born again is the beginning of that . it's def pointing people's hearts and eyes in the wrong direction .

 

[Hentenza]

OSAS forgets that our redemption is a pilgrimage . being born again is the beginning of that . it's def pointing people's hearts and eyes in the wrong direction .

If salvation is conditioned on our own ability of a successful pilgrimage then none will ever enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If salvation is conditioned on our own ability of a successful pilgrimage then none will ever enter the Kingdom of God.

That's my whole point . I'm talking about living healthy spiritual lives . talking in opportunistic terms doesn't help anyone . OSAS it emphasizes God's faithfulness in one matter, but cuts out by emphasis the whole idea of the new life.

The teaching needs to be more balanced . using something else to medicate people's low self esteem would be healthy all around.

 

[Hentenza]

That's my whole point . I'm talking about living healthy spiritual lives . talking in opportunistic terms doesn't help anyone . OSAS it emphasizes God's faithfulness in one matter, but cuts out by emphasis the whole idea of the new life.

The teaching needs to be more balanced . using something else to medicate people's low self esteem would be healthy all around.

Michael, a believer with saving faith lives according to the Spirit but is not perfect and continues to sin. Our sinful nature is still very much alive and well as Paul tells us in Romans 7. Many believe that OSAS, I prefer assurance of Salvation, is a ticket to continue sinning but that is a misinterpretation of the doctrine. A believer that loves Christ does good works because of this love not because attempts at salvation. This is why people can only do good works (those that do not lead to boasting and were prepared in advance for us to do) from salvation not for salvation.

I believe (and lived it) that those that promote salvation by faith and works can never know if their works are good enough which leads to fear (not the good fear lol). Christ died on the cross for us WHILE we are still sinners. This is important in understanding assurance. Expecting works to be a precondition to salvation does not promote balance.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Michael, a believer with saving faith lives according to the Spirit but is not perfect and continues to sin. Our sinful nature is still very much alive and well as Paul tells us in Romans 7. Many believe that OSAS, I prefer assurance of Salvation, is a ticket to continue sinning but that is a misinterpretation of the doctrine. A believer that loves Christ does good works because of this love not because attempts at salvation. This is why people can only do good works (those that do not lead to boasting and were prepared in advance for us to do) from salvation not for salvation.

I believe (and lived it) that those that promote salvation by faith and works can never know if their works are good enough which leads to fear (not the good fear lol). Christ died on the cross for us WHILE we are still sinners. This is important in understanding assurance. Expecting works to be a precondition to salvation does not promote balance.

Ah you're misinterpreting what i'm saying . i fit into category number three that doesn't exist in the two shoebox paradigm .

I'm disagreeing with it based on healthiness as a doctrine by basic results of those who don't think that deep.

i'm not even discussing salvation. i'm discussing the pilgrimage that the apostles spoke of as a done deal as a present tense thing .. though it was a future event when they wrote those letters.

You have so far illustrated how the new life gets cut out when OSAS is an emphasis . but you might yet surprise me.

 

[motherprayer]

I think once a person welcomes Jesus into their hearts, they don't have to "worry" about losing salvation.

But they CAN walk away from it.

It would seem, from Scripture, that faith incites an inner change in a person. Create in me a new heart o Lord. Walk by faith and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Etc.
It is more an "after-effect" than something a person has to work for. Gratitude for what He did for us makes us desire to serve Him the best we can, which, ah, doesn't necessarily involve prostitutes lol

However, there are times when one may walk away from faith, from Christ. We are all free to do that at any time. I can't imagine why, but we can, if we want. God doesn't "force" us to follow Him, all He does is provide the means.

 

[Hentenza]

Ah you're misinterpreting what i'm saying . i fit into category number three that doesn't exist in the two shoebox paradigm .

I'm disagreeing with it based on healthiness as a doctrine by basic results of those who don't think that deep.

i'm not even discussing salvation. i'm discussing the pilgrimage that the apostles spoke of as a done deal as a present tense thing .. though it was a future event when they wrote those letters.

You have so far illustrated how the new life gets cut out when OSAS is an emphasis . but you might yet surprise me.

Assurance emphasizes the new life not the old. Works for salvation emphasize the old life not the new.

 

[Rubiks]

I don't think that person would be a Christian to begin with. But in case that a Christian did commit adultery, which is certainly possible, because even Christians sin, I don't think that would make someone lose salvation. If it is possible to lose salvation, I think it would be due to completely cutting Christ out of your life. Occasional sin will never cause someone to lose their salvation

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

Hentenza probably gave you the best answer. The Bible gives us two truths about salvation. The first one is for those that are "saved" and secure in their faith in Christ. They will never lose their salvation because it is firmly grounded into the fiber of their existence. The second is the "perseverance of the saints" in which some people subscribe to a sort of "easy-belief" system in which they are not firmly grounded in their faith. Because of this, they produce little to no fruit of genuine repentance and conversion. These are the people that must guard their salvation with care.

Of course, only God can render judgment upon this person. However, I believe that God would take into account the greater view of this person's spiritual life and relationship with Him before condemning him to eternal hellfire.

AmishHacker

 

[Hentenza]

Hentenza probably gave you the best answer. The Bible gives us two truths about salvation. The first one is for those that are "saved" and secure in their faith in Christ. They will never lose their salvation because it is firmly grounded into the fiber of their existence. The second is the "perseverance of the saints" in which some people subscribe to a sort of "easy-belief" system in which they are not firmly grounded in their faith. Because of this, they produce little to no fruit of genuine repentance and conversion. These are the people that must guard their salvation with care.

Of course, only God can render judgment upon this person. However, I believe that God would take into account the greater view of this person's spiritual life and relationship with Him before condemning him to eternal hellfire.

AmishHacker

Hi AmishHacker,

Thanks for the kind words but I have a tweak on the terminology that you used. Preservation of the Saint is the P in TULIP, the soteriological acronym used in Calvinist soteriology. Preservation of the Saints defines believers with saving faith as assured of their salvation so it describes those that are saved. Nominal faith is the theological descriptive term used to describe those that have merely assented but have not experienced a change of life (not born again).

I hope this helps.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

Hi AmishHacker,

Thanks for the kind words but I have a tweak on the terminology that you used. Preservation of the Saint is the P in TULIP, the soteriological acronym used in Calvinist soteriology. Preservation of the Saints defines believers with saving faith as assured of their salvation so it describes those that are saved. Nominal faith is the theological descriptive term used to describe those that have merely assented but have not experienced a change of life (not born again).

I hope this helps.

Gah! Sticky fingers. Thanks!

AmishHacker

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Assurance emphasizes the new life not the old. Works for salvation emphasize the old life not the new.

I guess if you're into intellectual assent this is a necessary work around from the confidence Love gives . but traditions are traditions.

 

[Nanopants]

OSAS doesn't make much sense to me since I don't believe that I am currently saved. I believe that through faith, I will be saved and I am being saved, but I have not yet been presented faultless before God's throne. So I guess if we're talking about the "day of redemption," OSAS could make sense, but if we're talking about life here and now, it's just nonsensical.

 

[Albion]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

The example above is about as extreme as we can contemplate, but I also think Hentenza's answer is the right one--in a nutshell.

 

[daq]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

Even if he was waiting at a red light in his car, looking at a prostitute on the corner, and dreaming in his mind that he was with her in bed; he is not born from above. Even if he was sitting at his computer looking at a prostitute, imagining himself with her in the Moloch chambers of his imagery; he is not born from above.

Matthew 5:27-29 KJV
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

And if you do not want to have to understand this commandment literally, (i.e. hacking off your right hand or plucking out your right eye ) then it is expedient to begin looking into the Prophets and that which they expound, which is Torah the Rod of Iron, "for sin lieth at the door; and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"...

Zechariah 11:15-17 KJV
15. And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
16. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

The man is the land ...

 

[Yarddog]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

I don't think that it has anything to do with "a" sin. It has to do with faith. A person who has faith can have moments of weakness. I also think that it is a mistake to try and judge a person when that will be God's place at judgment day.

 

[CMDRExorcist]

I don't think that it has anything to do with "a" sin. It has to do with faith. A person who has faith can have moments of weakness. I also think that it is a mistake to try and judge a person when that will be God's place at judgment day.

 

[ananda]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me : "If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?" I was wondering what you guys thought .

Would the husband (Messiah) count this believer as a faithful wife or an unfaithful bride?

I don't believe questions like these can ever have a clear cut answer here on earth. I believe that Messiah will take a believer's whole life & individual circumstances into account, and only then can a just decision be rendered. Only divine power can do this!