Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[jasonsloss]

No I do not sin.

My witness is that I don’t read scripture and accept my or any other person’s understanding of what it say or means.

My witness is that Jesus/Holy Spirit has taught me what the written Word of God says and means.

okay so you are now claiming to be sinless, well you just sinned...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Giver]

okay so you are now claiming to be sinless, well you just sinned...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

 

[PerilousTimes]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

Concentrating on the living instead of the dead is best.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:




2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 ¶ Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I will give you a yes and no answer to your question.

Yes on the surface it looks as if the religious orders are doing what I shared.

Also because I don’t know the individuals in the religious orders I can’t judge where he or she living in the religious orders is with God.

What I share is that one needs to give his or her life to God and then allow God to teach and guide them how and where to live that life.

Personally Jesus never allowed people to provide for me. I had to work hard to earn a living for my family. I worked until age seventy-four, when because my back gave out I had to stop working.

I was very close to a group of priests that were part of a religious order. I can tell you that in no way was I ever allowed to have such a grand stile of living.
Those priests have every thing a person could want. All I could see they gave up was not getting married.

They had their meals cooked for them, table set, and dishes washed. I know this because I ate with them.

They always had a car to drive, and people would seem to always pay for their entertainment.

I had a country club membership and would take them to the club to play golf. They never paid. I was a member of the YMCA and played handball with them, and their membership was free to them, not to me.

Also not once did any of those priests ever say that Jesus teaches him anything. Nor did they ever say that Jesus told them to do any thing.

Now there were one or two that mentioned that Jesus kept them company, but it seemed at the time they were making an excuse for not being social.

What I am saying is being part of a religious order does not necessarily mean the person is a spiritual person.

Thank you. How do you know it is Jesus speaking to you? Does He speak to you in an audible voice that you can hear with your ears?

 

[Giver]

Thank you. How do you know it is Jesus speaking to you? Does He speak to you in an audible voice that you can hear with your ears?

I will share some of the ways Jesus/Holy Spirit has communicated with me, and how the gifts of the Holy Spirit has been used to teach me to know God.

God has spoken to me using another person’s gift of prophecy/knowledge. Then Jesus/Holy Spirit started speaking to me silently, using words and thoughts in my mind.

I was given gifts of the Holy Spirit, and God communicated with me through the gift of knowledge also.

After some time I started to distinguish the difference of how Jesus, and the Holy Spirit communicated with me. Jesus uses words; the Holy Spirit mostly gives me knowledge. That is hard to explain. I will give an example. Jesus asked me to give him my life. The Holy Spirit let me know that if I gave Jesus my life I would lose every thing I owned. I did not get any words but just the knowledge that it would happen. It did happen, and when I started to complain to Jesus about losing my car, Jesus said to me: “Bob! They hung me.” I stopped complaining.

As time went on Jesus used my gift of tongues, and my wife’s gift of interpretation of tongues to teach me. I would have a question for Jesus and get a tongue. My wife would interpret the tongue, and it would be the answer to my question. That went on for about a year. One night after my wife and I had our regular session with Jesus, he told me no more. He told me now to pray to be open and sensitive to his touch and word all day long. My wife and I had been getting into a habit of just going to Jesus after we put the children to bed. Jesus wanted me to stop that, and be open to him all day long.

Jesus spoke audibly to me only twice. The first time he scolded me, and it hurt so much that I cried for three days. The next time was just to tell me to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him.

Jesus used visions of him and me walking together, so as to teach and show me my total walk with him.

Jesus’ communication with me now is impossible for me to explain. It is so close that there are no words; I know to use, to explain what is happening.

Jesus has never taught me anything that goes against the written Word of God.
I know it is God speaking to me because Jesus told me he is God, and the fruits or our relationship are good. Jesus has kept me from deliberately committing a sin for over thirty years.

Also Jesus has healed people through my prayers. Jesus has performed miracles and some of the miracles saved my life.

 

[jasonsloss]

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.” Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

do you understand that John was speaking to a church of believers in Ephesus and this scripture is not referring to a past tense but has the meaning of a continuing condition... this was not a scripture to brand new believers but it was a scripture to believers to remind them Who is just and faithful and has forgiven us of our sins... just like in Hebrews where it states we are able now to approach the throne of grace because we know with confidence Who we are approaching....
Hebrews 4:11-16 (King James Version)
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.12 For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and *spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.15 For we have not an high priest which cannot * be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

next 1 John 3:3-9 (King James Version)
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth *also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested , that he might destroy the works of the devil.9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot *sin , because he is born of God.

this is talking about the practice of sin... the word committeth is defined as purposely intending to sin... to better understand this you must reconcile this with Paul's teaching in Romans 7:14-25...
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I . 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do . 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more *I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve * the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Giver]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

(2 Peter 2:1-22) “As there were false prophets in the past history of our people, so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction.

Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account.

In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch.

When angels sinned, God did not spare them: he sent them down into the underworld and consigned them to the dark abyss to be held there until the Judgement.

He did not spare the world in ancient times: he saved only Noah, the preacher of uprightness, along with seven others, when he sent the Flood over a world of sinners.


He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by reducing them to ashes as a warning to future sinners;
but rescued Lot, an upright man who had been sickened by the debauched way in which these vile people behaved-
for that upright man, living among them, was outraged in his upright soul by the crimes that he saw and heard every day.

All this shows that the Lord is well able to rescue the good from their trials, and hold the wicked for their punishment until the Day of Judgement, especially those who follow the desires of their corrupt human nature and have no respect for the Lord's authority.

Such self-willed people with no reverence are not afraid of offending against the glorious ones, but the angels in their greater strength and power make no complaint or accusation against them in the Lord's presence. But these people speak evil of what they do not understand; they are like brute beasts, born only to be caught and killed, and like beasts they will be destroyed, being injured in return for the injuries they have inflicted.

Debauchery even by day they make their pleasure; they are unsightly blots, and amuse themselves by their trickery even when they are sharing your table; with their eyes always looking for adultery, people with an insatiable capacity for sinning, they will seduce any but the most stable soul.

Where greed is concerned they are at their peak of fitness. They are under a curse. They have left the right path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam son of Bosor, who set his heart on a dishonest reward, but soon had his fault pointed out to him: a dumb beast of burden, speaking with a human voice, put a stop to the madness of the prophet. People like this are dried-up springs, fogs swirling in the wind, and the gloom of darkness is stored up for them. With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. They may promise freedom but are themselves slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it; and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world by coming to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ends up by being worse than he was before. It would have been better for them never to have learnt the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them. What they have done is exactly as the proverb rightly says: The dog goes back to its vomit and: As soon as the sow has been washed, it wallows in the mud.

 

[Jig]

(Hebrews 10:26-31)

If we could lose are salvation - we would.

 

[Manheim]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

OSAS is a fable.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

OSAS is a fable.

And why do you think that OSAS is a fable?

 

[FredVB]

No I do not sin.

My witness is that I don’t read scripture and accept my or any other person’s understanding of what it say or means.

My witness is that Jesus/Holy Spirit has taught me what the written Word of God says and means.

okay so you are now claiming to be sinless, well you just sinned...

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless?

Many have claimed or are claiming they hear the truth directly from God, yet they are all saying inconsistent things contradicting each other. So they are generally lying. In the case of the apostles, as with Christ who appointed them, they and what they said are attested by miracles associated with them.

Sin is not defined by any person for their own life, sin is defined as such for the things that are from what is said in the Bible, God's word to us. If forgiven we are seen as righteous, this happens if we are in Christ, and it is with having righteousness of Christ applied to us, and Christ bearing the judgment for our sin. So Yahweh sees the sin dealt with, being all-knowing he is not ignorant of the sins, but they are dealt with and we are judged clean. But we are to grow to be obedient, this means turning from sin still present, sin defined to be so from what is said in the Bible.

 

[Giver]

Many have claimed or are claiming they hear the truth directly from God, yet they are all saying inconsistent things contradicting each other. So they are generally lying. In the case of the apostles, as with Christ who appointed them, they and what they said are attested by miracles associated with them.

Sin is not defined by any person for their own life, sin is defined as such for the things that are from what is said in the Bible, God's word to us. If forgiven we are seen as righteous, this happens if we are in Christ, and it is with having righteousness of Christ applied to us, and Christ bearing the judgment for our sin. So Yahweh sees the sin dealt with, being all-knowing he is not ignorant of the sins, but they are dealt with and we are judged clean. But we are to grow to be obedient, this means turning from sin still present, sin defined to be so from what is said in the Bible.

(1 John 5:17) “Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

 

[FredVB]

(1 John 5:17) “Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

"Not all sin is deadly".

Some sin will not impede salvation coming with repentance. In a believer's life with such sin, not being habitual and persistent with knowledge of it, it may be left behind in repenting and not repeated.

"After we have been given knowledge of the truth".

This is that of the truth of the gospel. With knowledge of it, but persisting in a life with sin in it without trusting in and relying on the true gospel, and Christ with that, there is nothing nothing else had for a covering from judgment. This is what had to be said among the Hebrews.

Indeed nor all that say "Lord" for Christ are saved by him, but it is this for those who believe the gospel with hearing it, trusting Christ as their Lord, to act on it .

 

[Rick Otto]

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

Is pride usualy deliberate?

 

[Giver]

Is pride usualy deliberate?

There is much you don’t know about me.

I keep sharing that no one can stop sinning using his or her own strength. How then could one who stops sinning take pride?

A person who no longer sins know that the only why that is possible is if God makes it so.

It is God who gets the glory, and that glory is manifested in and through those who live his Word.