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Jesus was not an Arminian

Skala

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Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.
 

Arcoe

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Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

He chose or elected Judas, and couldn't keep him.
 
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nobdysfool

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He chose/elected Judas for a reason, knowing full well what Judas would do. He did so to fulfill prophecy, which he Himself gave years before the Incarnation.

As for the OP, A consistent Arminian could not pray and ask God for anything, especioally the salvation of a loved one, because in Arminian thought, God cannot interfere with the free will decisions of men, lest He be a "puppetmaster". Under Arminian theology, prayer is useless.
 
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Arcoe

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He chose/elected Judas for a reason, knowing full well what Judas would do. He did so to fulfill prophecy, which he Himself gave years before the Incarnation.

As for the OP, A consistent Arminian could not pray and ask God for anything, especioally the salvation of a loved one, because in Arminian thought, God cannot interfere with the free will decisions of men, lest He be a "puppetmaster". Under Arminian theology, prayer is useless.

So, as we see, election does not always get one to heaven.
 
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nobdysfool

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So, as we see, election does not always get one to heaven.

One isolated instance does not a doctrine make. Judas had a very specific purpose to fulfill. And he did fulfill it.
 
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gmm4j

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Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

So much for the effectiveness of that prayer.

2 Cor 12:7-8
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me
.

Oh, I guess this was a messenger and not the evil one himself.
 
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elman

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Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

Jesus asks that the cup be removed. Do you suggest Jesus did not know it would not be? Arminians probably do not say God would never intervene in this world--at least I would not say that.
 
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reformed ttL

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Jesus asks that the cup be removed. Do you suggest Jesus did not know it would not be? Arminians probably do not say God would never intervene in this world--at least I would not say that.
what was in the cup?
 
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Shulamite

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He chose/elected Judas for a reason, knowing full well what Judas would do. He did so to fulfill prophecy, which he Himself gave years before the Incarnation.

As for the OP, A consistent Arminian could not pray and ask God for anything, especioally the salvation of a loved one, because in Arminian thought, God cannot interfere with the free will decisions of men, lest He be a "puppetmaster". Under Arminian theology, prayer is useless.

Amen. Judas was chosen as a vessel by God's ordained plan from before the foundation of the world. God uses vessels of wrath and vessels of glory to accomplish His will (Romans 9) and neither vessel chooses what type it will be.

Jesus Himself said, "Have I not chosen you 12 and yet one of you is a devil". Jesus foreknew that Judas was a vessel chosen by God to accomplish exactly what he did accomplish. God, who is Jesus, was finished with His works and decisions about "man" long before He even created the world. Jesus didn't call Judas because He wanted to save him and couldn't, He called Judas because there was a foreordained purpose for Judas in God's plan and that plan was carried out by the predetermined will of God.

Romans 9 makes it clear that we cannot choose which type of vessel we are in God's hand.
 
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gmm4j

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Romans 9 makes it clear that we cannot choose which type of vessel we are in God's hand.


Rom 9:30-33
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."


Rom 11:19-23
You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


2 Tim 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
 
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If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

He only does what God tells Him to do and did exactly what was told. Not ask Him to do it. If everything is araange by God and nothing isn't arraged by Him then If God arrages walls to be installed around a human being with one wall having one door. Cause God arranged circumstances according to His Own Pleasure, He arranged for that human being within the walls to choose the only door. The human choose that only door and exited that door cause God had put that door there for him to exit. So. it's the same as God telling him to choose that door and go out that door. If God said I choose you and you didn't choose me then God did force the human to use that door. "Robot" is a new slang term to describe a program running the robot. Cause "Robots" were never used in the old days, it is used today as a new attack term to make the Calvinist explain themselves. Personally to me until someone convinces me otherwise, I would have to say God told the human to do what he willed. It's the same as a programer telling the robot to do what the programer told it to do. With this "Robot" attack, I would have to say that God loved the Totally Deprived elects so much that He willed them to believe.

So, what really wrong with using the ice cold steel terminology of the modern word, "robots"?


Robots is a pretty lame stupid excuse to explain nonexistent free will.

human-vs-robot-08.jpg

 
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Shulamite

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In the church, we submit to God, our Head. Imagine the chaos that would ensue if the "body" of Christ, each member, used their own supposed "free will" to do as they pleased? Has anyone ever seen a human body behave this way?

If our arms, legs, fingers and toes, etc. all decided to do their own thing apart from our head, it would be utter chaos look ridiculous.

Your earthly body (arms, legs, arms, toes, fingers, etc.,) BELONG to your head, right? They operate in conjunction with your head and cannot function without your brain (head) giving the signals.

Is your human head (on your body) BULLYING your body because it controls bodily functions? Is your head treating your arms, legs, etc. as a "ROBOT"?

The body has only so many members. Those members respond as the Head/brain decides.
 
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gmm4j

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In the church, we submit to God, our Head. Imagine the chaos that would ensue if the "body" of Christ, each member, used their own supposed "free will" to do as they pleased? Has anyone ever seen a human body behave this way?

If our arms, legs, fingers and toes, etc. all decided to do their own thing apart from our head, it would be utter chaos look ridiculous.

Your earthly body (arms, legs, arms, toes, fingers, etc.,) BELONG to your head, right? They operate in conjunction with your head and cannot function without your brain (head) giving the signals.

Is your human head (on your body) BULLYING your body because it controls bodily functions? Is your head treating your arms, legs, etc. as a "ROBOT"?

The body has only so many members. Those members respond as the Head/brain decides.


Did the Head make you sin?
 
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The body has only so many members. Those members respond as the Head/brain decides.

The "Gift of Faith" comes with the (elects) body. The "Arm" comes with the body. One don't just accept the "Gift of Faith". One discovers the gift and lives with it. The infant looked surprised to see a hand floating before his eyes. The baby laughed so hard to discover the hand was actually his own hand. The little baby don't go threw the ridiculous arminian process of recognizing and then accepting like maybe he'll reject his own arm if he wanted to because he was told he could. The real fact is that he can't reject his own arm and he has to live with his arm. He discovered he was born with it but he doesn't remember it. Perhaps none of us remembered God giving us (NOTE!:the Elects ONLY) the gift of faith before or while being born. Why listen to men at the pulpits and have them to tell you a lie that you invented that arm on your own and created your arm by accepting your arm.
 
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Shulamite

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Did the Head make you sin?

Exodus 10:1 has a curious statement: "Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, so that I may perform miraculous signs of mine among them.’"

Romans 9:17, where Pharaoh is used as an illustration."For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

**My side note: God ordained it and allowed it for the purpose of carrying out His own plan for redemption of His elect, His bride. Pharoah's heart (as is anyone who is lost) is ALREADY hardened and a slave to sin and cannot change that fact in and of himself/herself. God simply uses sin to accomplish His will for showing mercy on whom He will show mercy. Dare I say that my Head ordained my life and even the sins I would commit so He could show His mercy to me? Yes! Psalm 139 says that ALL my days were written and ordained in His book for me BEFORE I was born. That includes EVERYTHING.
 
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gmm4j

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Exodus 10:1 has a curious statement: "Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, so that I may perform miraculous signs of mine among them.’"

Romans 9:17, where Pharaoh is used as an illustration."For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

**My side note: God ordained it and allowed it for the purpose of carrying out His own plan for redemption of His elect, His bride. Pharoah's heart (as is anyone who is lost) is ALREADY hardened and a slave to sin and cannot change that fact in and of himself/herself. God simply uses sin to accomplish His will for showing mercy on whom He will show mercy. Dare I say that my Head ordained my life and even the sins I would commit so He could show His mercy to me? Yes! Psalm 139 says that ALL my days were written and ordained in His book for me BEFORE I was born. That includes EVERYTHING.

Hey Shulamite,

Did the Head MAKE you sin? - As in a body, the head, makes you move your finger.

I see you answered that God ordained even the sins you would commit, so does this mean He made you sin, or permitted you to sin?
 
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gmm4j

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Exodus 10:1 has a curious statement: "Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, so that I may perform miraculous signs of mine among them.’"

Romans 9:17, where Pharaoh is used as an illustration."For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

**My side note: God ordained it and allowed it for the purpose of carrying out His own plan for redemption of His elect, His bride. Pharoah's heart (as is anyone who is lost) is ALREADY hardened and a slave to sin and cannot change that fact in and of himself/herself. God simply uses sin to accomplish His will for showing mercy on whom He will show mercy. Dare I say that my Head ordained my life and even the sins I would commit so He could show His mercy to me? Yes! Psalm 139 says that ALL my days were written and ordained in His book for me BEFORE I was born. That includes EVERYTHING.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.


Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.

The statement, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion" mayseem to be saying that God arbitrarily chooses to save some and not others, but this is not the case. The Old Covenant quote comes from Exodus 33:19, which directly follows the golden calf incident of chapter 32. God chose Moses over firstborn Aaron. It was not an arbitrary choice, but it was based on Aaron’s sin in forming the golden calf and Moses’ desire to seek the Lord.

Exodus 33:17-20
And the LORD said to Moses, "I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name." 18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Certainly God will have mercy on whom He desires, but this is not arbitrary or unconditional. God repeatedly gives us scriptural examples of whom He has mercy upon.

Psalms 119:132
Turn to me and have mercy on me, as you always do to those who love your name.

Proverbs 28:13-14
He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. 14 Blessed is the man who always fears the LORD, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Matthew 5:6-8
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

James 4:6
"God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

Next, Paul presents Pharaoh as an example of one whom God hardened. It is important to understand when Scripture says that God hardened someone’s heart it means that He simply gives that person over to the consequences of his own free will. If God has mercy on those who seek Him, who does God harden?

Romans 1:21-24
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts…

2 Timothy 3:13
evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

God hardens the hard hearted. God did not directly deposit a hard and stubborn heart into Pharaoh and then systematically harden it without Pharaoh’s knowledge or will. The Bible clearly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart while God provided the impetus for resistance.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.

Scripture shows us that what the Lord actually did was confront Pharaoh through Moses and the plagues. Pharaoh then responded of his own free will by refusing or “hardening his heart” toward Moses’ demands. So, Pharaoh hardened his own heart, in the sense that he chose his responses, and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, in the sense that He provided the impetus for Pharaoh to respond as he did. In much the same way, we may say a person made us angry, when in fact, the person merely provided the impetus for us to become angry; we were the ones who responded in anger. Likewise, Paul points out later in chapter nine (vs 32,33) that God has also provided an impetus for Israel to become hardened by giving them Christ, in whom they must have faith in order to be saved. This became a stumbling stone for many.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

God raised Pharaoh up. God bore with great patience this object of wrath. God positioned him, and gave him great power and authority even though he was one whom God knew would never believe or trust in Him.

If Paul’s argument is true, then natural national Israel would feel like Pharaoh in the sense that they had been raised up for the purpose of God displaying His power through them, yet left without His mercy. God’s mercy is not upon national Israel for natural Isreal’s sake. God has chosen to have mercy upon spiritual Israel by faith, and God has the right to choose to apply His righteousness in this manner; upon the condition of faith in Christ, but they have rejected it. But, God has used them and was going to continue to use them anyway.

Again, Paul is making this argument because the Jewish mindset for the condition to be included in the covenant had shifted from national Israel and following the Law, to anyone (Jew or Gentile) who comes to Christ in faith. Natural Israel could say, but we’ve been used in all the ways listed in verses 4 and 5, and yet you are telling us that we stand condemned if we don’t trust in this Jesus whom you preach? Yes.

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

So, the objection in verse 19, One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"is not about God irresistibly hardening them and then blaming them. The objection is: why does God hold us accountable when our rejection and hardening of His means of mercy actually served His purpose by increasing His glory and making Himself known among the nations? It is similar to the objection raised in Romans 3:7, “Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
 
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gmm4j

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20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

At this point Paul employs the potter and clay imagery which draws from Jeremiah 18. The context of Jeremiah 18 and Isaiah passages that refer to the potter and clay image clearly indicate that the “clay” is not passive. God uses them for His purposes according to their choices. God would still use the Jews for His purposes, but they would be used for common uses rather than the noble uses He desired had they had faith and been obedient.

God intended noble purposes for them, but they could not be fulfilled due to their rebellion and rejection of God’s plan. Instead, God molded them within their own rebellion and they had no right to object to God using them this way. Much like God used Pharaoh to bring about His glory, God, despite Israel’s continual rejection of Him and His righteous provision in Christ, continued to send the Messiah through Israel in order to gain a people of faith that He would raise up for noble uses. Interestingly, in another of Paul’s epistles, 2 Timothy 2:20-21, Paul tells us that a person’s choices determine what kind of uses he is prepared for.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?

Who are the objects of His wrath? The answer is, those who do not receive His mercy by faith. John 3:18, Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Yes, God patiently bears with these whom He knows will never trust Him, and He uses even them to display His glory.

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

So, just as Pharaoh’s hardening was the result of his rejection of God, the Israelites have also experienced a hardening in part due to their rejection of God’s chosen means of righteousness through faith in Christ. However, also like Pharaoh, Israel’s rejection and subsequent hardening actually served to further God’s purpose. God’s name would be proclaimed among the gentiles and His glory would be more fully displayed by the inclusion of the gentiles as His covenant people through faith in Christ. Both Jew and gentile are called to faith.

25 As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." 29 It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah."

Paul goes on to use additional Old Covenant texts to support the argument he was presenting. God reserves the right to say “not my people” to those who were formally His people, and call them “my people” who were formally cut off from the benefits of God’s covenant people. “My people” are those who receive the promise through faith in Christ (both Jew and gentile) and “not my people” are those who reject Christ (both Jew and gentile). The remnant is always a remnant by faith.

Here’s the very important conclusion to this portion of Paul’s argument:

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 9:30-33 sums up Paul’s argument by drawing the distinction between the people of God and those rejected by God being based on those who have faith and those who do not.

This whole argument has been about natural Israel trying to obtain righteousness through the Law and natural lineage versus pursuing righteousness by faith. Nothing is said about the unconditional election of individuals in Paul’s conclusion, because this was not what Paul had been discussing in the chapter. Then, as you continue to read Romans chapters 10 through 11, this interpretation explained above gains support while the Calvinist’s view of election weakens.

Here’s how Chapter 10 opens: The same theme is being continued.

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

It is by faith in Christ that you are saved, not by your efforts to live by the Law.

Romans 10:6-13
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says:… …8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Then moving into Chapter 11… Here is the Pharaoh argument again:

Romans 11:15-24
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?…. ….18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

You are a recipient of mercy or wrath based upon whether or not you trust in God’s righteousness. You are used for noble or ignoble purposes based upon whether or not you trust in God’s righteousness. This is Paul’s argument.
 
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Shulamite

My Bridegroom suffered this for ME
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My statement stands. I believe God ordained and allowed my sin so that He could then show Himself to me as my Redeemer and Savior. If I had no sin and had not fallen, then I would not know or need God as my Redeemer.

God creates the circumstances, thereby creating the Need of Himself by His Elect. It's ALL about Him and what He has ordained to make Himself known to vessels of Mercy.

Jesus once asked His listeners, "Who will love God more? The one who owes Him more." The one who has their eyes opened to their sin and is Redeemed, loves God. That sin was, YES, foreknown and foreordained by God, even for His elect, so that He may show Himself as Forgiving, Merciful and our Rescuer. How would we KNOW Him as any of these things had He not ordained we sin first? How can we know God as our Savior if we had never sinned? Since ALL things were chosen, ordained and known by God BEFORE Creation, then I believe I have answered your question. The problem is that you won't accept my answer to your question.
New International Version (©1984)
Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Isaiah 63:17 "

Let me now ask you a question: Is the Father the HEAD OF CHRIST??? Did the Father allow Jesus to BECOME SIN? (for our sakes?) Did the Father, who is Christ's Head, ordain that Christ Himself BECOME sin? (who knew no sin?).
 
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