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Jesus was not an Arminian

Arcoe

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"Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel; AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME." Matthew 27:9

"Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Zechariah 11:13

What was fulfilled in that particular passage in Matthew? First, it said it fulfilled that which was spoken through Jeremiah, but you gave Zechariah as the prophecy fulfilled. I admit, this is strange to me, but nonetheless, it was written in Zechariah. It was 'they', who took the silver and purchased the potter's field. Let's read more of Matthew 27 to see what was fulfilled.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 THEN was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

That which was fulfilled in that particular passage in Matthew was the 'chief priests' taking the thirty pieces of silver to buy the potter's field, not Judas betraying Jesus.
 
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student ad x

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.......That which was fulfilled in that particular passage in Matthew was the 'chief priests' taking the thirty pieces of silver to buy the potter's field, not Judas betraying Jesus.
Okay, you didn't understand why it was posted, right? Here's what nobdysfool posted

He chose/elected Judas for a reason, knowing full well what Judas would do. He did so to fulfill prophecy, which he Himself gave years before the Incarnation.......

my response to content of post said:
"Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel; AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME." Matthew 27:9

"Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Zechariah 11:13

I didn't share Matthew 27:9 to prove that Judas himself fulfilled the prophecy in Zechariah 11:13. It was given, so youngsters who may be reading the thread may know where the prophecy is located. It is not from the prophet Jeremiah, it is from Zechariah, as you stated. Judas did play a part in the fulfillment of the prophecy. "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him." Matt. 26:15 Without this transaction, there is no betrayal & no fulfillment of prophecy.
 
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Shulamite

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What was written about the Son of Man must come to pass, Jesus said.
Even the Son of God acknowledged to His disciples that what was already fore-ordained and fore-written of Him must come to pass!

All those IN Christ, our days were already planned and written for us too. (Psalm 139) (even the wicked have their steps planned by God in order to accomplish His purposes)
No sense for free-willers to argue, stomp and cry. There is no wiggle room for YOUR choice.

I pray the Lord opens more hearts in His body to see this glorious thing about our Sovereign God.
 
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gmm4j

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even the wicked have their steps planned by God in order to accomplish His purposes. There is no wiggle room for YOUR choice.

I pray the Lord opens more hearts in His body to see this glorious thing about our Sovereign God.


I hope the Lord has not planned and purposed for you to go on a killing spree tomorrow, but if you do I guess you would want us all to rejoice that God had preordained it and that there was no wiggle room for you to do otherwise.

No sense in praying for the Lord to open more hearts to see this glorious "thing" because He has already preordained those who will see and those who won't - no praying wiggle room! Oh, in some people's minds it is wonderful to be a predetermined puppet. God made me post this.

1 Cor 14:32-33
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

Paul you are wrong. I couldn't help it, God prepurposed that it would happen this way.
 
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Shulamite

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I hope the Lord has not planned and purposed for you to go on a killing spree tomorrow, but if you do I guess you would want us all to rejoice that God had preordained it and that there was no wiggle room for you to do otherwise.

No sense in praying for the Lord to open more hearts to see this glorious "thing" because He has already preordained those who will see and those who won't - no praying wiggle room! Oh, in some people's minds it is wonderful to be a predetermined puppet. God made me post this.

I'll let the scriptures answer your statement to me.

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

He is Sovereign... period. And yes, He has willed and ordained the wicked to also bring about (carry out) His will.
 
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gmm4j

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I'll let the scriptures answer your statement to me.

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

He is Sovereign... period. And yes, He has willed and ordained the wicked to also bring about (carry out) His will.


:) Matt 18:7
Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Your choice!

Do you sometimes do wicked things that God makes you do?

I'm starting to get a little afraid:prayer:
 
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Shulamite

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:) Matt 18:7
Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Your choice!

Do you sometimes do wicked things that God makes you do?

I'm starting to get a little afraid:prayer:

:)You don't have to be afraid for me. I know that I am in His hand and all that I do. I will give you a couple more scriptures to validate why I feel as I do, but I know that regardless of my endeavor to win you over to agree with me, I won't ;)... Only the Lord could do that)

Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Isaiah 63:17 "O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."

It is apparent from the above statement that Isaiah KNEW and perceived God's Sovereignty even in his own actions.
 
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JackSparrow

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I


Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."



I am interested to see the word disaster. Others say this should be evil. I have yet to seek the rendition from a professional Bible translator.

Can there be such a thing as a Calvinist court Judge, Calvinist police officer or law any Calvinist informant person. How can someone be locked away, put on death row even, if there crimes were pre ordained and they had no choice.
 
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Shulamite

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I am interested to see the word disaster. Others say this should be evil. I have yet to seek the rendition from a professional Bible translator.

Can there be such a thing as a Calvinist court Judge, Calvinist police officer or law any Calvinist informant person. How can someone be locked away, put on death row even, if there crimes were pre ordained and they had no choice.

I have to admit that you posed a GREAT question :).... a question that the apostle Paul was tasked with in Romans 9. "If no one can resist God's will, then why does He charge us with sin?" It seems to me that even Paul's hearers asked him the same question you just posed. You are not alone in that quest. My only answer is what Paul gave, "Who are WE to question God?"

I noticed that in Romans 9, Paul didn't attempt to explain it or define an answer for them, he simply feared God and told them not to question the Lord, while still acknowledging God's total control over evil and good.

But, we simply cannot get around this scripture in Isaiah 45:7, however, I believe that God is not evil nor does He rejoice in evil because He ordains to use it for His purposes.
 
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bling

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I am interested to see the word disaster. Others say this should be evil. I have yet to seek the rendition from a professional Bible translator.

Can there be such a thing as a Calvinist court Judge, Calvinist police officer or law any Calvinist informant person. How can someone be locked away, put on death row even, if there crimes were pre ordained and they had no choice.

from Barnes' Notes:
And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not Proverbs that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.

Read more: Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version) :: Barnes' Notes :: Bible Tools
 
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crimsonleaf

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from Barnes' Notes:
And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not Proverbs that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.

Read more: Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version) :: Barnes' Notes :: Bible Tools
Certainly the ESV translates directly as "calamity" and other discussions on this board have come to the same conclusion, in as far as any discussion here does...
 
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JackSparrow

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from Barnes' Notes:
And create evil - The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not Proverbs that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.

Read more: Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version) :: Barnes' Notes :: Bible Tools

Thanks

This is the understanding I have always had. It was Progmunk's video clip that led me to question it.
 
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gmm4j

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:)You don't have to be afraid for me. I know that I am in His hand and all that I do. I will give you a couple more scriptures to validate why I feel as I do, but I know that regardless of my endeavor to win you over to agree with me, I won't ;)... Only the Lord could do that)

Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"

Isaiah 63:17 "O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance."

It is apparent from the above statement that Isaiah KNEW and perceived God's Sovereignty even in his own actions.


I'm not afraid for you, but maybe a little afraid of you. You may be in His hands, but tomorrow He may have you hunt me down, or something worse.

The answer to Isaiah's question in Is 65 is found here:
Isa 65:2-14
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations — 3 a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick; 4 who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat; 5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me, for I am too sacred for you!' Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day.
6 "See, it stands written before me: I will not keep silent but will pay back in full; I will pay it back into their laps — 7 both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the LORD."Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds." 8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, 'Don't destroy it, there is yet some good in it, 'so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all. 9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live. 10 Sharon will become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for my people who seek me.
11 "But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, 12 I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame. 14 My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.
 
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Shulamite

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I'm not afraid for you, but maybe a little afraid of you. You may be in His hands, but tomorrow He may have you hunt me down, or something worse.

The answer to Isaiah's question in Is 65 is found here:
Isa 65:2-14
All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations — 3 a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick; 4 who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat; 5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me, for I am too sacred for you!' Such people are smoke in my nostrils, a fire that keeps burning all day.
6 "See, it stands written before me: I will not keep silent but will pay back in full; I will pay it back into their laps — 7 both your sins and the sins of your fathers," says the LORD."Because they burned sacrifices on the mountains and defied me on the hills, I will measure into their laps the full payment for their former deeds." 8 This is what the LORD says:
"As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, 'Don't destroy it, there is yet some good in it, 'so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all. 9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live. 10 Sharon will become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for my people who seek me.
11 "But as for you who forsake the LORD and forget my holy mountain, who spread a table for Fortune and fill bowls of mixed wine for Destiny, 12 I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame. 14 My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.


I have to "smile" at this one... (with a friendly attitude, I promise!:))
In all honesty, you have nothing to fear from me. God commanded my heart to love my brother and I do. Love does not hunt its brothers and sisters down. You and I may disagree, but it's okay! Disagreement does not mean you are not my brother in the Lord. So, don't fear. He/she who loves God loves his/her brother also! blessings.
 
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gmm4j

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I have to "smile" at this one... (with a friendly attitude, I promise!:))
In all honesty, you have nothing to fear from me. God commanded my heart to love my brother and I do. Love does not hunt its brothers and sisters down. You and I may disagree, but it's okay! Disagreement does not mean you are not my brother in the Lord. So, don't fear. He/she who loves God loves his/her brother also! blessings.


I make these posts only in a fun friendly attitude also.

God may have commanded you to love your brother today, but tomorrow He may have you do something we all might be afraid of (If He so directs).
 
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