To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[GaryArnold]

But isn't that what you're doing by saying the poor should take care of themselves first, and then if there's enough left over, maybe thinking about giving some of what's left?

Then it would seem that we agree, because I believe that our giving should be Spirit led. I just am a bit surprised to see you say this after seeing you say that people should only give if they have enough left over after taking care of their own needs first.

I gave what the scriptures say - what we should do until such time as The Spirit directs otherwise. I've always said one should be Spirit led in their giving.

I quoted scripture which tells us to take care of our family first, because if we give first and then don't have enough left over, we are worse than a non-believer. If God, through His Spirit, tells us to do something different, we should always obey His voice. However, we must be sure it is God and not something else.

I don't take scriptures out of context and change them to enrich myself, the way many pastors do. You won't find anywhere in the scriptures where God ever commanded anyone to tithe from their income, yet pastors stand in front of their congregation and say that the scriptures tell us to bring a tenth of "our income" to the church. Nothing but lies. I have yet attend ANY church service where the pastor says our giving should be Spirit led.

 

[probinson]

I gave what the scriptures say - what we should do until such time as The Spirit directs otherwise. I've always said one should be Spirit led in their giving.

Are you suggesting that the Spirit might at some point direct you to do something contrary to scripture? It sure sounds like it when you say that we should do what scriptures say until the Spirit directs otherwise.

I quoted scripture which tells us to take care of our family first, because if we give first and then don't have enough left over, we are worse than a non-believer.

Actually in context, that scripture is talking specifically about taking care of and providing for our parents when they're older;

1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV)
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
​

IOW, children and grandchildren shouldn't abandon their parents and grandparents as they age, and if they do, then they are worse than an infidel. That's what 1 Timothy 5:8 is talking about in its proper context.

If God, through His Spirit, tells us to do something different, we should always obey His voice. However, we must be sure it is God and not something else.

Here again, why would God tell us to do something different than what scriptures tell us to do? That makes no sense.

I don't take scriptures out of context and change them to enrich myself, the way many pastors do. You won't find anywhere in the scriptures where God ever commanded anyone to tithe from their income, yet pastors stand in front of their congregation and say that the scriptures tell us to bring a tenth of "our income" to the church. Nothing but lies. I have yet attend ANY church service where the pastor says our giving should be Spirit led.

Your beef is with them and not with me. I believe and have said all throughout this thread that our giving should be cheerful, generous and Spirit led, not regulated by any guidelines or formulas.

 

[GaryArnold]

Are you suggesting that the Spirit might at some point direct you to do something contrary to scripture? It sure sounds like it when you say that we should do what scriptures say until the Spirit directs otherwise.

That's why I said you better be sure it is God's Spirit and not something else directing you.

Since God knows all, you might be poor and not have enough money to give AND support your family. But God may direct you to give, anyway, knowing that you are about to acquire more funds. So unless you hear from God to do otherwise, you should follow the scriptures.

Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the New Testament
: 1 Timothy 5:8
 But if any provide not for his own—His own people or relatives.
Those of his own house—That is, his own family, or a poor widow or relative that lives under his roof.
Hath denied the faith—The Christian religion, which strongly inculcates love and benevolence to all mankind.


Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible: 

If any men or women do not maintain their poor relations, they in effect deny the faith. If they spend upon their lusts and pleasures, what should maintain their families, they have denied the faith, and are worse than infidels.

1 Timothy 5:8 (ICB)
8A believer should take care of his own relatives, especially his own family. If he does not do that, he has turned against the faith. He is worse than a person who does not believe in God.

1 Timothy 5:8 (NIV)
8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Frogster]

But isn't that what you're doing by saying the poor should take care of themselves first, and then if there's enough left over, maybe thinking about giving some of what's left?



Then it would seem that we agree, because I believe that our giving should be Spirit led. I just am a bit surprised to see you say this after seeing you say that people should only give if they have enough left over after taking care of their own needs first.

when you say the poor should take care of himself first, as if it be a terrible thing do u include this?


1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel

 

[Frogster]

But isn't that what you're doing by saying the poor should take care of themselves first, and then if there's enough left over, maybe thinking about giving some of what's left?



Then it would seem that we agree, because I believe that our giving should be Spirit led. I just am a bit surprised to see you say this after seeing you say that people should only give if they have enough left over after taking care of their own needs first.

again, paul said not to give, if they don't have it, but you keep ignoring the directives of 2 cor 8. remember what i showed you about indicatives and imperatives in the scriptures?

Paul also said he wanted equality in 2 cor 8, that would mean that one has to consdier himself.

let me know if u want TEXT.

 

[Frogster]

duplicate

 

[Frogster]

Are you suggesting that the Spirit might at some point direct you to do something contrary to scripture? It sure sounds like it when you say that we should do what scriptures say until the Spirit directs otherwise.



Actually in context, that scripture is talking specifically about taking care of and providing for our parents when they're older;

1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV)
But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.
​

IOW, children and grandchildren shouldn't abandon their parents and grandparents as they age, and if they do, then they are worse than an infidel. That's what 1 Timothy 5:8 is talking about in its proper context.



Here again, why would God tell us to do something different than what scriptures tell us to do? That makes no sense.



Your beef is with them and not with me. I believe and have said all throughout this thread that our giving should be cheerful, generous and Spirit led, not regulated by any guidelines or formulas.

what's the difference of it's grandma, or great grandma, or ones kids.....?

1 tim 5:8.

it says ONES OWN, that would mean ones to whom one has an obligation towards as a PRIORITY..

 

[probinson]

That's why I said you better be sure it is God's Spirit and not something else directing you.

Since God knows all, you might be poor and not have enough money to give AND support your family. But God may direct you to give, anyway, knowing that you are about to acquire more funds. So unless you hear from God to do otherwise, you should follow the scriptures.

What I underlined above is a troubling statement to me. You seem to be suggesting that God might tell you to do something contrary to scripture, but I don't believe that's possible. IOW, if one is always to worry about their own needs and the needs of their family first (isn't that in itself contrary to what Jesus said when He said, "...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear..."?) and this is a directive from scripture that carries with it the warning that if you do not, you're worse than an infidel, then God would be instructing you to act like an infidel by not taking care of your family first.

As I said earlier, the best way for anyone to provide for their family is to recognize that God is their Provider and obey whatever it is He tells them to do, even if it's not what makes sense to us. This harmonizes 1 Timothy 5:8 with God's instructions and does not result in God instructing you to do something contrary to scripture.

 

[Frogster]

What I underlined above is a troubling statement to me. You seem to be suggesting that God might tell you to do something contrary to scripture, but I don't believe that's possible. IOW, if one is always to worry about their own needs and the needs of their family first (isn't that in itself contrary to what Jesus said when He said, "...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear..."?) and this is a directive from scripture that carries with it the warning that if you do not, you're worse than an infidel, then God would be instructing you to act like an infidel by not taking care of your family first.

As I said earlier, the best way for anyone to provide for their family is to recognize that God is their Provider and obey whatever it is He tells them to do, even if it's not what makes sense to us. This harmonizes 1 Timothy 5:8 with God's instructions and does not result in God instructing you to do something contrary to scripture.

here..>>>>>

12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

 

[Frogster]

What I underlined above is a troubling statement to me. You seem to be suggesting that God might tell you to do something contrary to scripture, but I don't believe that's possible. IOW, if one is always to worry about their own needs and the needs of their family first (isn't that in itself contrary to what Jesus said when He said, "...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear..."?) and this is a directive from scripture that carries with it the warning that if you do not, you're worse than an infidel, then God would be instructing you to act like an infidel by not taking care of your family first.

As I said earlier, the best way for anyone to provide for their family is to recognize that God is their Provider and obey whatever it is He tells them to do, even if it's not what makes sense to us. This harmonizes 1 Timothy 5:8 with God's instructions and does not result in God instructing you to do something contrary to scripture.

what does Paul say to give out of here, their last penny, or??????????


14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

 

[Frogster]

What I underlined above is a troubling statement to me. You seem to be suggesting that God might tell you to do something contrary to scripture, but I don't believe that's possible. IOW, if one is always to worry about their own needs and the needs of their family first (isn't that in itself contrary to what Jesus said when He said, "...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear..."?) and this is a directive from scripture that carries with it the warning that if you do not, you're worse than an infidel, then God would be instructing you to act like an infidel by not taking care of your family first.

As I said earlier, the best way for anyone to provide for their family is to recognize that God is their Provider and obey whatever it is He tells them to do, even if it's not what makes sense to us. This harmonizes 1 Timothy 5:8 with God's instructions and does not result in God instructing you to do something contrary to scripture.

more ferryaaa about the collection. Paul was talking to people that worked, he said income, earn, and he said to give out of their extra in 1 Cor 16:2, he respected the fact that they had priorities, like 1 tim 5:8. See it now?

He clearly is understanding here, that they would have family commitments, and worries. They had to think of their families first, 1 tim 5:8 confirmed. They had to think about theor personal finances too.
save up a little, as if to say, be careful, one has other responsibilities.

1 cor 16:2On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come




2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

 

[Frogster]

textus frogster.

 

[GaryArnold]

What I underlined above is a troubling statement to me. You seem to be suggesting that God might tell you to do something contrary to scripture, but I don't believe that's possible.

IF, please note I am using the word IF - IF God tells you to do something that seems to go against scripture, just maybe you misunderstood the scripture, OR just maybe God isn't telling you to go against the scriptures BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.

I am leaving the door open that maybe God knows that tomorrow you won't be so poor, so that today you really can afford to give something because tomorrow you will have the funds to take care of your family.

But because we know the scriptures don't lie, IF you think God told you to give even though you don't believe you can afford it and still support your family, and you go ahead and give, and it turns out you don't have the funds to support your family, you obviously heard something OTHER THAN His Spirit. I see this all the time. People hear the pastor and think God is telling them to give, and then the power is shut off, or they can't pay their rent, etc. etc. etc. Obviously the pastor planted the idea in their head, NOT God.

 

[Svt4Him]

IF, please note I am using the word IF - IF God tells you to do something that seems to go against scripture, just maybe you misunderstood the scripture, OR just maybe God isn't telling you to go against the scriptures BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.

I am leaving the door open that maybe God knows that tomorrow you won't be so poor, so that today you really can afford to give something because tomorrow you will have the funds to take care of your family.

But because we know the scriptures don't lie, IF you think God told you to give even though you don't believe you can afford it and still support your family, and you go ahead and give, and it turns out you don't have the funds to support your family, you obviously heard something OTHER THAN His Spirit. I see this all the time. People hear the pastor and think God is telling them to give, and then the power is shut off, or they can't pay their rent, etc. etc. etc. Obviously the pastor planted the idea in their head, NOT God.

That's why Jesus condemned the lady who gave out of her need?

Sowing and reaping is still a kingdom principle.

 

[GaryArnold]

That's why Jesus condemned the lady who gave out of her need?

Did she give "out of her need?" The poor were taken care of in the Old Testament. The farmers had to leave part of the harvest for the poor. The tithe helped feed the poor. All through the Old Testament the poor were taken care of. Her "needs" were taken care of.

You are trying to compare what the widow did with poor people today. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

[FoundInGrace]

Where did I EVER say that one should not give to the church. I have said time and time and time again that those who attend church services have a moral obligation to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE of the expenses.

I have attended many different churches over the years and always gave generously. A pastor has a right to be PAID, and I have no problem with that. But those who think they are giving to God when they give to the church have been deceived. Even if a portion of what the organization collects goes to the poor, it is still ONLY A PORTION, and the ORGANIZATION takes credit for the giving.

Many "churches" operate without paying any pastor or anyone else. Many hold their services in homes, etc. Not all pastors teach tithing. Not all denominations teach tithing. It is the flat out false teaching that I fight against. When you have pastors flat out tell you they know tithing ended at the cross, but they have to make the congregation think that tithing is still required, and take scripture out of context to manipulate people, that is nothing but deception and fraud.

ok now i know better where you are coming from. although i dont see it as a moral obligation to give to the church but more a wanting to support what God is doing in the local church and that we get to do that is a gift to us that we get to give to the church who is dearly loved by God - its a great privilege not a moral obligation.
The thing is, as I see it, whereever you give your money, even if it is to a corrupt organisation that calls itself a church, if you are giving to God when you do that, if in your heart it is toward God, then it is toward God and not a deception. I do hear what you are saying, for a little while I went to a church that had issues but when I was giving money into the offering (i wasnt aware how bad it was at the time) that money as far as I was concerned was given to God. The church is responsible for what it did with that money, in my heart that money was given to God.

There will always be people who try to rip people off and take take take. But that doesnt mean that the people who are taken from dont have right motives and God sees their heart and still blesses their journey with him. No weopen that is fashioned against us shall prosper God will still honor those who honor Him, inside a corrupt system or not.

perhaps I am overly optimistic but I know what it is to be spiritually abused and yet I still care about the church because God does, and God is more powerful that corrupt churches.

 

[Svt4Him]

Did she give "out of her need?" The poor were taken care of in the Old Testament. The farmers had to leave part of the harvest for the poor. The tithe helped feed the poor. All through the Old Testament the poor were taken care of. Her "needs" were taken care of.

You are trying to compare what the widow did with poor people today. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

She gave everything she had to live on. Are you not aware of the culture you're talking about? The poor were taken care of, really? She was a poor widow who gave everything, but according to you, she didn't really because she was taken care of. Sorry, nothing in the story of culture backs your understanding of that.

 

[Messy]

Sometimes it's good to give when you are poor. The other poor widow gave a part of her last food to Elijah and her needs were not taken care of by people. The Lord commanded a widow to take care for him. The widow with Elisha had debts. Even if some try to corrupt the message, giving and receiving is still in the Bible. What about that boy who gave his lunch?
About the woman who poored the oil on Jesus, I heard that women had a bottle of oil to pay the costs of their wedding.

 

[probinson]

IF, please note I am using the word IF - IF God tells you to do something that seems to go against scripture, just maybe you misunderstood the scripture,

That's what I'm trying to say. You can't harmonize what you believe those scriptures are saying with God telling you to give first before taking care of your family.

OR just maybe God isn't telling you to go against the scriptures BECAUSE GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.

The key word here is first. You said this (emphasis added);

"...Using the above principles, the New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family..."
​

You based this statement on what you say 2 Timothy 2:6 and 1 Timothy 5:8 are saying. But then you say that God might tell you to give before you take care of your family. This is contradictory to what you are saying these scriptures mean.

Whether God knows that you'll have money tomorrow is irrelevant to the point that if in fact scripture is saying what you claim in the statement above, for God to tell you to give first instead of taking care of ourselves and our family first then He is telling you to do something contrary to scripture.

I am leaving the door open that maybe God knows that tomorrow you won't be so poor, so that today you really can afford to give something because tomorrow you will have the funds to take care of your family.

Well, you've moved the goalposts from using the first of our income to take care of ourselves and our family to making sure you can provide for your family at some point in the immediate future. But no matter which way you slice it, this is not using the first of your income to take care of your family, which is what you said the scripture directs.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Am I? I'm the only one that responded, but the imagery you used of God striking people dead who had good intentions and then saying that we shouldn't be surprised to get "taken out to the wood shed" if our good intentions are "counter to God's way shown in scripture" was quite vivid. I can't believe I'm the only one who "mistakenly" drew the wrong conclusion.

So if you don't think God will take us to the "wood shed" and/or strike us dead, then what do you think is the outcome of "inappropriate giving"?

Yeah....whatever..... Go ahead and think what you want, which is what you'll do anyway.

I already explained it to you, and your lack of acceptance leads only to the fact that you're just not worth the typing time. Your seemingly narcicistic ploys won't work on me. Most people simply accept the clarifications offered, but you have something else going on in your mind than the reality of what you've been told. Demons behind every door and around every corner is a state of mind I choose not to play with in the sand box.

I don't know what color the sky is in your world, but it isn't the same color of what's actually shining from above for the rest of us.

Have fun talking to yourself, which appears to be what's really going on anyway since you don't hear what I've been saying.

Next?

BTW