To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[Frogster]

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

 

[back2theBIBLE2]

thanx 2 those posting scripture. i hadn't studied tithing 2 realize how much scripture there was 4 tithing and none against. both sides gave a good show of their views and helped me 2 make a decision 2 become a tither.

 

[New_Wineskin]

These threads are the best at seeing what kind of people christians are and how much they value truth .

 

[K2K]

Matthew 22:29
But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.




If anybody knows the Scriptures they should know it is about coming to know Jesus Christ!! If you don't know that, you don't know the Scriptures!!


One person quotes scriptures after scriptures, over and over, and another person uses the scriptures to point people to Jesus Christ; So who knows the Scriptures?


Jesus Christ is the Truth. The Scriptures tell us this, but do we turn to the Truth and listen to Him, or do we think we have the truth because we search the Scriptures?


So one person might quote the Scriptures and say you must give 10% every week to the church. And another person might quote the Scriptures and say giving 10% is the Law and I don't follow the Law, so perhaps never give 10%.

Yet Abraham heard the voice of the Lord, followed Him, moved all he had from one place to another, and once gave 10% to a priest who was not in a church building. So I say listen to the Lord and follow Him with all you have, and He will probably have you give back to the king of Sodom what belongs to him, and give 10% at one point to a preist who eats with you.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Do you know the Scriptures?? They tell you that His sheep hear His voice!!

Jn 8:39,40 They answered and sid to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's chrildren, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Abraham, though not perfect, went where he was told and gave how he was told.

Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord God Most High, ... that I will not take ... anything that is yours...

So there had been a conversation between Abram and the Most High, and that is why Abram gave back to the King of Sodom what was his. So why do you think Abram also decided to give 10% from that battle to Melchezedek who was a priest of the God Most High? Do you not understand that Abram had made a pratice of hearing the voice of the Most High and following the instructions given to him? And there were no Scriptures at that time!!

 

[GaryArnold]

Yet Abraham heard the voice of the Lord, followed Him, moved all he had from one place to another, and once gave 10% to a priest who was not in a church building. So I say listen to the Lord and follow Him with all you have, and He will probably have you give back to the king of Sodom what belongs to him, and give 10% at one point to a preist who eats with you.

Jn 8:39,40 They answered and sid to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's chrildren, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Abraham, though not perfect, went where he was told and gave how he was told.

Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord God Most High, ... that I will not take ... anything that is yours...

So there had been a conversation between Abram and the Most High, and that is why Abram gave back to the King of Sodom what was his. So why do you think Abram also decided to give 10% from that battle to Melchezedek who was a priest of the God Most High? Do you not understand that Abram had made a pratice of hearing the voice of the Most High and following the instructions given to him? And there were no Scriptures at that time!!

You make a lot of assumptions here. Nowhere in the scriptures does it tell us WHY Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek. However, Biblical historians agree that during the days of Abram, it was custom in some areas, and law of the land in others, to give a tenth of war spoils to the King. To say that God told Abram to give the tenth is teaching from silence. WE DON'T KNOW WHY ABRAM GAVE THE TENTH.

Is there ANY scripture telling us that Abram/Abraham ever gave a tenth of anything other than war spoils? If not, then to follow what Abram did, YOU also would give a tenth of war spoils.

Why would God tell Abram to give a tenth of war spoils and then turn around and tell Moses he didn't want a tenth of war spoils? Under the Mosaic law, God only wanted a small fraction of a tenth of war spoils. Did God change His mind as to how much He wanted?

 

[Frogster]

And there were no Scriptures at that time!!

paaaleeeease! as far as the red above from your quote, stop acting like i don't know people heard God, in pre-bible days!

 

[Frogster]

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.




If anybody knows the Scriptures they should know it is about coming to know Jesus Christ!! If you don't know that, you don't know the Scriptures!!


One person quotes scriptures after scriptures, over and over, and another person uses the scriptures to point people to Jesus Christ; So who knows the Scriptures?


Jesus Christ is the Truth. The Scriptures tell us this, but do we turn to the Truth and listen to Him, or do we think we have the truth because we search the Scriptures?


So one person might quote the Scriptures and say you must give 10% every week to the church. And another person might quote the Scriptures and say giving 10% is the Law and I don't follow the Law, so perhaps never give 10%.

Yet Abraham heard the voice of the Lord, followed Him, moved all he had from one place to another, and once gave 10% to a priest who was not in a church building. So I say listen to the Lord and follow Him with all you have, and He will probably have you give back to the king of Sodom what belongs to him, and give 10% at one point to a preist who eats with you.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Do you know the Scriptures?? They tell you that His sheep hear His voice!!

Jn 8:39,40 They answered and sid to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's chrildren, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Abraham, though not perfect, went where he was told and gave how he was told.

Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord God Most High, ... that I will not take ... anything that is yours...

So there had been a conversation between Abram and the Most High, and that is why Abram gave back to the King of Sodom what was his. So why do you think Abram also decided to give 10% from that battle to Melchezedek who was a priest of the God Most High? Do you not understand that Abram had made a pratice of hearing the voice of the Most High and following the instructions given to him? And there were no Scriptures at that time!!

don't forget, when he said they were wrong, it was based on the objective text, not a subective word, you even said scripture is for reproof after my Galatian citations, and we know text is also for the edification of the church, paul used alooottta text in romans too. That is a fact!


alrighty now....again, this thread is about tithing, not rhema vs logos, so really, with all due respect and common courtesy to the OP person, we should talk tithe here, thanks always, your buddy frog.

 

[K2K]

You make a lot of assumptions here. Nowhere in the scriptures does it tell us WHY Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedek.

Abraham left his home because He heard the Lord, and travel a long ways depending upon the Lord to get Him there. Isaiah explained that in that day you would hear a voice behind you everytime you turned to the left of to the right. So how did Abraham go where he did?

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. And we say the God is omni-present and the God is the Great I Am. Yet now someone says that I made an assumption about Abraham giving 10% after we know all this and clearly see that Abraham gave back to the King of Sodom at the same time, because of a conversation with God.

The assumption, as you call it, is called faith!!

I'm not perfect but I make an assuption (have Faith) that God really is all that He says He is, and that He is with me. So I talk to Him and He often tells me, turn right at the stop sign, or go left at the next light, just like Isaiah wrote about. And since I gave Him all that I have, it is now His, so concerning giving, I ask Him and He tells me where, when, and how much to give.

The first words I heard Him tell me were "Read Your Bible. And when I read the Bible I see that Abraham ( a man of faith), also talked to God about what to do with the spoils from the battle.

Abraham was a man that listened and follow the instructions of the Most High God who is called the Great I Am and Lord because He gives instructions concerning which way to go and what to do. I can relate to him.

But the man who see it written that Abraham talked to God about what to do with the spoils of the battle, but somehow thinks that conversation between Abraham and the Most High only had instructions on how to handle the King of Sodom and not how to handle the King of Salem, I can't relate to. Why would a God that talks to you every time you turn to the left or to the right not cover what to do with all the spoils of the battle?

The earth and all that is in it belongs to Him, so have you ever thought that it might be right to ask Him what He would like done with all of it?

Yet a person that doesn't do that, thinks that saying Abraham did that is an assumption. The assumption that Abram made was that God was with him so as to be inquired of. That is called faith.

Ok - you see in the Scriptures that Abram gave to both the King of Sodom and the King of Salem at the same time. You see that clearly Abram talk to the Most High concerning what to give to the King of Sodom, and can't make a connection that Abram must have surely talked to the Most High concerning what to give to the King of Salem too?? Does it help to see that the Most High later made giving 10% Law to those who said, "Let not God talk to us." Do you think Abram was making the Law or the God was making the Law? If God made the Law, then do you think it ok to made an assuption that God also told Abram what to give, especially when we know Abram talk to God on what to give to the King of Sodom?


The Word of God we preach is in our hearts and on our lips. You pick up the what the Spirit says to you that way. And since He is always with you; you should be taking all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. "All thoughts" would include your thinking about what, where, and how much to give. That is what Abraham tried to do, but those not walking by faith don't understand what Isaiah, Paul, and Abraham were trying to do.

We are trying to follow the Lord by listening to His voice.

Joel 2:11 The Lord utters His voice before His army;...

Jn 10:4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Ez 3: 6,7... I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel wil not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me.

Ps 89:16 In Your name they rejoice all the day

1 Sam 1:11... I will give him to the Lord all the days of his life

We should be listening to Him all the days of our life and all the day long, and on all thoughts!!

 

[Frogster]

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.




If anybody knows the Scriptures they should know it is about coming to know Jesus Christ!! If you don't know that, you don't know the Scriptures!!


One person quotes scriptures after scriptures, over and over, and another person uses the scriptures to point people to Jesus Christ; So who knows the Scriptures?


Jesus Christ is the Truth. The Scriptures tell us this, but do we turn to the Truth and listen to Him, or do we think we have the truth because we search the Scriptures?


So one person might quote the Scriptures and say you must give 10% every week to the church. And another person might quote the Scriptures and say giving 10% is the Law and I don't follow the Law, so perhaps never give 10%.

Yet Abraham heard the voice of the Lord, followed Him, moved all he had from one place to another, and once gave 10% to a priest who was not in a church building. So I say listen to the Lord and follow Him with all you have, and He will probably have you give back to the king of Sodom what belongs to him, and give 10% at one point to a preist who eats with you.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Do you know the Scriptures?? They tell you that His sheep hear His voice!!

Jn 8:39,40 They answered and sid to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's chrildren, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Abraham, though not perfect, went where he was told and gave how he was told.

Gen 14:22 Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord God Most High, ... that I will not take ... anything that is yours...

So there had been a conversation between Abram and the Most High, and that is why Abram gave back to the King of Sodom what was his. So why do you think Abram also decided to give 10% from that battle to Melchezedek who was a priest of the God Most High? Do you not understand that Abram had made a pratice of hearing the voice of the Most High and following the instructions given to him? And there were no Scriptures at that time!!

please post the text, where these instructions were given. it seems like u r arguing against text, as you try to use text.

 

[GaryArnold]

The assumption, as you call it, is called faith!!

Using your faulty logic, if I were to come into a large inheritance, and God speaks to me to not keep any of it for myself, I suppose you would assume I pay the estate/inheritance tax out of faith because God told me to?????

In the Old Testament we find pagan kings taking a tenth. It was a tax.

Do you believe everything Abram/Abraham did was out of faith? Abram gave the tenth AFTER he was already rich, and BEFORE God changed his name to Abraham.

You miss the whole faith part of the story. The faith part was that Abram kept NOTHING for himself. THAT, not the tenth, showed that he had faith that God provides. Do YOU also keep NOTHING for yourself? If not, then I guess YOU don't follow Abram's example.

Absolutely ridiculous that anyone would think they are following Abram's example when they give a tenth of their income, wealth, or anything other than war spoils.

And again, why would God tell Abram to give a tenth of war spoils when under the law he did NOT want a tenth of war spoils? Please explain that to me.

The logic some church goers use amaze me.

 

[Svt4Him]

thanx 2 those posting scripture. i hadn't studied tithing 2 realize how much scripture there was 4 tithing and none against. both sides gave a good show of their views and helped me 2 make a decision 2 become a tither.

Awesome to hear. So the 10th animal to pass under the rod you take to the temple and eat! Man and I thought I was the only one.

 

[K2K]

don't forget, when he said they were wrong, it was based on the objective text, not a subective word, you even said scripture is for reproof after my Galatian citations, and we know text is also for the edification of the church, paul used alooottta text in romans too. That is a fact!


alrighty now....again, this thread is about tithing, not rhema vs logos, so really, with all due respect and common courtesy to the OP person, we should talk tithe here, thanks always, your buddy frog.

It wasn't based upon objective text, it was based upon his relationship with the Lord!!!

Jesus explained that as He heard He judged. (Jn 5:30) And He told us not to judge. If I am hearing the Lord and He tells me, then I have not judged, but Him. All Scriptures was inspired by God, so was the letter to the Galatians Paul's judgement based upon text, or God's judgment that He inspired Paul to write??

If someone thinks that God's judgement is "subective word", they don't know God. God is not subjective, but object in all He does. So Paul wrote things like:

Rm 2:1 Therefore you have noe excuse, everyone of you who passes judgement, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself

So Paul did not, 'say they were wrong, based on his understanding of the text' but on what the Lord was telling Him. Yet to complete the reproof, He did back it up at times with references to text.

Still, Paul didn't run off a dozen Scriptures written text and verses because it is not about the text but about the hearing the Lord.

For example:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who had bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?


Paul calls the Galatians "foolish", but where is the Scriptures reference? Paul has them as being "bewitched" but where is the Scriptures reference?

Yet Paul didn't judge the Galatians "foolish" and "bewitched", because of he had objective text but because Paul heard the Lord by faith!!

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing by faith?

If Paul is promoting "hearing by faith", don't you understand that was what he was doing??


Then Paul gets around to backing up the judgement he has already heard with Scripture reference

Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now there were no Scriptures when Abraham was on earth. Abraham did not believe "the objective text", because it wasn't even there. Abraham 'BELIEVED GOD' and that because he heard God by faith!!

Now someone may want to call hearing the voice of the Lord a "subective word", but that is not how the righteousness based upon faith speaks at all!

Rm 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?...

RM 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

So some say we must live by the Scriptures (as the Word of God) and another says we must live by the voice of the Lord who we can hear speaking to us, just as is recorded in the Scriptures.


My friend, Paul was trying to get people to seek the voice of the Lord!! That was Paul's purpose, and that is our purpose. Paul referenced Scriptures, but only to back up what he was trying to tell them. And Paul was telling them about Jesus Christ, and a personal relationship that they could have. And that relationship is based upon hearing the Lord and not based upon leaning on your understanding of the Scriptures!!

So Paul wrote, Rm 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

But was that really how is was written?

Duet 29:4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Is 29:10, 11 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. the entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book...

So to some the Word of God is like a sealed book to try an unseal; but my friend, to others the Word of God is a person that came down out of heaven, went to the cross and now makes His home within them. So the hear from the Word of God.

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God.

He, nor the words He speaks are subjective, but He is objective. And we don't preach the text, but the Lord, just like the text explains. So we tell people to hear Him by faith, and we use the Scriptures to back that up.

He explained, "He who is of God hears the words of God" (Jn 8:47), but to others He said, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." (Jn 8:43)

So concerning the thread, we do not give 10% according to the Law, and we do not avoid giving 10% because it is part of the Law, but we talk to the Lord Jesus Christ, listen to what He tells us, and give what, where, and how He tells us to!!

And we do that because we don't want to speculate about the correct meaning of the text, but rather want to obey the voice of the One the text tells us about.

Still there are those speculating about whether giving 10% is part of the Law or not part of the Law. They both use Scriptures, but neither point people to the Lord because they don't believe He can actually be heard from. They say anything you might think is Him is simply a subjective word, because they don't believe.

As for me, I point people to the Lord Jesus Christ the Bible tells us about, and tell people to seek His voice and listen, just like the Bible says. But perhaps "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

 

[K2K]

please post the text, where these instructions were given. it seems like u r arguing against text, as you try to use text.

Are you not just being argumentative?

Four verse were specifically given, none again what was being said, and how is it you don't know the Lord gives instructions and every time you turn to the left of to the right? Yet we don't always listen.

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instructions of the Lord.

Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it, "whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

So did you not know how it is to hear the voice of the Lord? You hear Him talk to you and give you instructions, and even as often as whenever you turn to the right or to the left, if you care to listen.

So why are you asking "where these instructions were given"?

Abram walked by faith, Isaiah walked by faith, Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him, so what do you try to do?

I see where you go 'text, text, text, text' but not where you go 'listen, listen, listen' and back it up with the text.

So for you:

Mat 17:5... "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him."

Ex 15:26 "And He said, "If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the Lord your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes...

Ps 99:6... They call upon the Lord and He answered them.

Jer 30:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations

Mat 11:15 He who has ears to her, let him hear.

1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME." says the Lord.

Mal 2:1,2 "And now this commandment is or you, O priests. If you do not listen...

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teac you in that hour what you ought to say."

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened.

Is 55:3 Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;

Zech 1:4... 'But they did not listen or give hed to Me' declares the Lord.

Mk 7:18 HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR?

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Prov 1:8 Hear, my son, your fahter's instruction

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

Ez 3:7 yet the house of Isreal will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me.

Prov 23:22 Listen to your father who begot you,

1 Jn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hars My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...

Is 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, and pay attentiong, you peoples from afar.

Prov 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?

Prov 8:6 Listen, for I will speak noble things;

Prov 8:8 All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness.

Prov 8:10 Take my instruction and not silver

Prob 8:14 Counsel is mine and sound wisdom' I am understanding and power is mine.

So your request was. "please post the text, where these instructions were given."

Is that enough text?

God gives instuctions to those that listen to Him, and even whenever you turn to the right or to the left. Abram, listened to God. Abram had told God that he would not keep what belong to the King of Sodom, and then at the same time goes and gives 10% to the King of Salem. Yet some still don't understand why Abram did what he did. They say 'show me where it is written that Abram got his instructions from the Lord' and that after they supposedly studied the Bible.

My friend, understanding comes from His voice, so what does He show you about the text when you listen to Him? But don't believe me!! Go ask the Lord! Let Him tell you why Abram gave 10% and ask Him what you should give, when, and where, while you are at it. And after a while you won't be telling people about the text, but instead you will be using the text to tell people about the Lord.

 

[Messy]

alrighty now....again, this thread is about tithing, not rhema vs logos, so really, with all due respect and common courtesy to the OP person, we should talk tithe here, thanks always, your buddy frog.

Frogster you're right, Galatians is the best.
Herbert Armstrong had a more Biblical preaching of tithing: 10 % of your gross income for the church organization, 10 % for the feast of tabernacles and 10 % for the widows and poor. Why does noone do that?
I wonder if it was the other way around: the church organization giving you 10 % or 30%, if people had a problem with it.
Let's all not forget the most important thing.

 

[Faulty]

Are you not just being argumentative?

Four verse were specifically given, none again what was being said, and how is it you don't know the Lord gives instructions and every time you turn to the left of to the right? Yet we don't always listen.

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instructions of the Lord.

Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it, "whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

So did you not know how it is to hear the voice of the Lord? You hear Him talk to you and give you instructions, and even as often as whenever you turn to the right or to the left, if you care to listen.

So why are you asking "where these instructions were given"?

Abram walked by faith, Isaiah walked by faith, Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him, so what do you try to do?

I see where you go 'text, text, text, text' but not where you go 'listen, listen, listen' and back it up with the text.

So for you:

Mat 17:5... "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him."

Ex 15:26 "And He said, "If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the Lord your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes...

Ps 99:6... They call upon the Lord and He answered them.

Jer 30:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations

Mat 11:15 He who has ears to her, let him hear.

1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME." says the Lord.

Mal 2:1,2 "And now this commandment is or you, O priests. If you do not listen...

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teac you in that hour what you ought to say."

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened.

Is 55:3 Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;

Zech 1:4... 'But they did not listen or give hed to Me' declares the Lord.

Mk 7:18 HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR?

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Prov 1:8 Hear, my son, your fahter's instruction

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

Ez 3:7 yet the house of Isreal will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me.

Prov 23:22 Listen to your father who begot you,

1 Jn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hars My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...

Is 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, and pay attentiong, you peoples from afar.

Prov 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?

Prov 8:6 Listen, for I will speak noble things;

Prov 8:8 All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness.

Prov 8:10 Take my instruction and not silver

Prob 8:14 Counsel is mine and sound wisdom' I am understanding and power is mine.

So your request was. "please post the text, where these instructions were given."

Is that enough text?

God gives instuctions to those that listen to Him, and even whenever you turn to the right or to the left. Abram, listened to God. Abram had told God that he would not keep what belong to the King of Sodom, and then at the same time goes and gives 10% to the King of Salem. Yet some still don't understand why Abram did what he did. They say 'show me where it is written that Abram got his instructions from the Lord' and that after they supposedly studied the Bible.

My friend, understanding comes from His voice, so what does He show you about the text when you listen to Him? But don't believe me!! Go ask the Lord! Let Him tell you why Abram gave 10% and ask Him what you should give, when, and where, while you are at it. And after a while you won't be telling people about the text, but instead you will be using the text to tell people about the Lord.

Contextually speaking, each of those have to do with either hearing the written word, or a spoken word as given through an OT prophet or through the incarnated Jesus Himself, or even in a few cases, not applicable at all because of a presumably hasty keyword search.

 

[Frogster]

Are you not just being argumentative?

Four verse were specifically given, none again what was being said, and how is it you don't know the Lord gives instructions and every time you turn to the left of to the right? Yet we don't always listen.

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instructions of the Lord.

Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it, "whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

So did you not know how it is to hear the voice of the Lord? You hear Him talk to you and give you instructions, and even as often as whenever you turn to the right or to the left, if you care to listen.

So why are you asking "where these instructions were given"?

Abram walked by faith, Isaiah walked by faith, Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him, so what do you try to do?

I see where you go 'text, text, text, text' but not where you go 'listen, listen, listen' and back it up with the text.

So for you:

Mat 17:5... "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him."

Ex 15:26 "And He said, "If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the Lord your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes...

Ps 99:6... They call upon the Lord and He answered them.

Jer 30:10 Hear the word of the Lord, O nations

Mat 11:15 He who has ears to her, let him hear.

1 Cor 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME." says the Lord.

Mal 2:1,2 "And now this commandment is or you, O priests. If you do not listen...

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teac you in that hour what you ought to say."

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Ps 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened.

Is 55:3 Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;

Zech 1:4... 'But they did not listen or give hed to Me' declares the Lord.

Mk 7:18 HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR?

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Prov 1:8 Hear, my son, your fahter's instruction

Prov 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth comes knowledge and understanding.

Ez 3:7 yet the house of Isreal will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me.

Prov 23:22 Listen to your father who begot you,

1 Jn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hars My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him...

Is 49:1 Listen to Me, O islands, and pay attentiong, you peoples from afar.

Prov 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?

Prov 8:6 Listen, for I will speak noble things;

Prov 8:8 All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness.

Prov 8:10 Take my instruction and not silver

Prob 8:14 Counsel is mine and sound wisdom' I am understanding and power is mine.

So your request was. "please post the text, where these instructions were given."

Is that enough text?

God gives instuctions to those that listen to Him, and even whenever you turn to the right or to the left. Abram, listened to God. Abram had told God that he would not keep what belong to the King of Sodom, and then at the same time goes and gives 10% to the King of Salem. Yet some still don't understand why Abram did what he did. They say 'show me where it is written that Abram got his instructions from the Lord' and that after they supposedly studied the Bible.

My friend, understanding comes from His voice, so what does He show you about the text when you listen to Him? But don't believe me!! Go ask the Lord! Let Him tell you why Abram gave 10% and ask Him what you should give, when, and where, while you are at it. And after a while you won't be telling people about the text, but instead you will be using the text to tell people about the Lord.

YOU SAID..instructed, I can fill a page also, and say all this, BUT SHOW ME THE TITHE INSTRUCTIONS IN THE GEN 14 ACCOUNT. thanks.

 

[Frogster]

It wasn't based upon objective text, it was based upon his relationship with the Lord!!!

Jesus explained that as He heard He judged. (Jn 5:30) And He told us not to judge. If I am hearing the Lord and He tells me, then I have not judged, but Him. All Scriptures was inspired by God, so was the letter to the Galatians Paul's judgement based upon text, or God's judgment that He inspired Paul to write??

If someone thinks that God's judgement is "subective word", they don't know God. God is not subjective, but object in all He does. So Paul wrote things like:

Rm 2:1 Therefore you have noe excuse, everyone of you who passes judgement, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself

So Paul did not, 'say they were wrong, based on his understanding of the text' but on what the Lord was telling Him. Yet to complete the reproof, He did back it up at times with references to text.

Still, Paul didn't run off a dozen Scriptures written text and verses because it is not about the text but about the hearing the Lord.

For example:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who had bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?


Paul calls the Galatians "foolish", but where is the Scriptures reference? Paul has them as being "bewitched" but where is the Scriptures reference?

Yet Paul didn't judge the Galatians "foolish" and "bewitched", because of he had objective text but because Paul heard the Lord by faith!!

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing by faith?

If Paul is promoting "hearing by faith", don't you understand that was what he was doing??


Then Paul gets around to backing up the judgement he has already heard with Scripture reference

Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now there were no Scriptures when Abraham was on earth. Abraham did not believe "the objective text", because it wasn't even there. Abraham 'BELIEVED GOD' and that because he heard God by faith!!

Now someone may want to call hearing the voice of the Lord a "subective word", but that is not how the righteousness based upon faith speaks at all!

Rm 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?...

RM 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

So some say we must live by the Scriptures (as the Word of God) and another says we must live by the voice of the Lord who we can hear speaking to us, just as is recorded in the Scriptures.


My friend, Paul was trying to get people to seek the voice of the Lord!! That was Paul's purpose, and that is our purpose. Paul referenced Scriptures, but only to back up what he was trying to tell them. And Paul was telling them about Jesus Christ, and a personal relationship that they could have. And that relationship is based upon hearing the Lord and not based upon leaning on your understanding of the Scriptures!!

So Paul wrote, Rm 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

But was that really how is was written?

Duet 29:4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Is 29:10, 11 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. the entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book...

So to some the Word of God is like a sealed book to try an unseal; but my friend, to others the Word of God is a person that came down out of heaven, went to the cross and now makes His home within them. So the hear from the Word of God.

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God.

He, nor the words He speaks are subjective, but He is objective. And we don't preach the text, but the Lord, just like the text explains. So we tell people to hear Him by faith, and we use the Scriptures to back that up.

He explained, "He who is of God hears the words of God" (Jn 8:47), but to others He said, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." (Jn 8:43)

So concerning the thread, we do not give 10% according to the Law, and we do not avoid giving 10% because it is part of the Law, but we talk to the Lord Jesus Christ, listen to what He tells us, and give what, where, and how He tells us to!!

And we do that because we don't want to speculate about the correct meaning of the text, but rather want to obey the voice of the One the text tells us about.

Still there are those speculating about whether giving 10% is part of the Law or not part of the Law. They both use Scriptures, but neither point people to the Lord because they don't believe He can actually be heard from. They say anything you might think is Him is simply a subjective word, because they don't believe.

As for me, I point people to the Lord Jesus Christ the Bible tells us about, and tell people to seek His voice and listen, just like the Bible says. But perhaps "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

uh..uh..



Did paul hold up objective text, to show them they were wrong?

Same as Jesus, he said they were wrong, because they did not know the scriptures, that is a fact.

ANSWER THIS..

Were the verses paul held up, as truth, still objective truth for you or anyone else??

IS THE WORLD UNDER WRATH, AS THE OBJECTIVE TEXT SAYS ROM 1:18, EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW IT OR AGREE WITH IT? HAAAAAAA...PLEASE ANSWER THAT FRIEND! THEN APPLY THAT TO WHAT JESUS TOLD EM, AND YOU WILL SEE THE CONNEXION!


Yes or no, a simple reply will suffice, THANKS, YOUR BUDDY FROG.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster you're right, Galatians is the best.
Herbert Armstrong had a more Biblical preaching of tithing: 10 % of your gross income for the church organization, 10 % for the feast of tabernacles and 10 % for the widows and poor. Why does noone do that?
I wonder if it was the other way around: the church organization giving you 10 % or 30%, if people had a problem with it.
Let's all not forget the most important thing.

yes, we must remember the poor, actually we can gine catholic's credit on their teachings, they focus on the poor, as Jesus did, and Paul.

merry Christmas, by the way.

 

[Frogster]

It wasn't based upon objective text, it was based upon his relationship with the Lord!!!

Jesus explained that as He heard He judged. (Jn 5:30) And He told us not to judge. If I am hearing the Lord and He tells me, then I have not judged, but Him. All Scriptures was inspired by God, so was the letter to the Galatians Paul's judgement based upon text, or God's judgment that He inspired Paul to write??

If someone thinks that God's judgement is "subective word", they don't know God. God is not subjective, but object in all He does. So Paul wrote things like:

Rm 2:1 Therefore you have noe excuse, everyone of you who passes judgement, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself

So Paul did not, 'say they were wrong, based on his understanding of the text' but on what the Lord was telling Him. Yet to complete the reproof, He did back it up at times with references to text.

Still, Paul didn't run off a dozen Scriptures written text and verses because it is not about the text but about the hearing the Lord.

For example:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who had bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?


Paul calls the Galatians "foolish", but where is the Scriptures reference? Paul has them as being "bewitched" but where is the Scriptures reference?

Yet Paul didn't judge the Galatians "foolish" and "bewitched", because of he had objective text but because Paul heard the Lord by faith!!

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing by faith?

If Paul is promoting "hearing by faith", don't you understand that was what he was doing??


Then Paul gets around to backing up the judgement he has already heard with Scripture reference

Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Now there were no Scriptures when Abraham was on earth. Abraham did not believe "the objective text", because it wasn't even there. Abraham 'BELIEVED GOD' and that because he heard God by faith!!

Now someone may want to call hearing the voice of the Lord a "subective word", but that is not how the righteousness based upon faith speaks at all!

Rm 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?...

RM 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

So some say we must live by the Scriptures (as the Word of God) and another says we must live by the voice of the Lord who we can hear speaking to us, just as is recorded in the Scriptures.


My friend, Paul was trying to get people to seek the voice of the Lord!! That was Paul's purpose, and that is our purpose. Paul referenced Scriptures, but only to back up what he was trying to tell them. And Paul was telling them about Jesus Christ, and a personal relationship that they could have. And that relationship is based upon hearing the Lord and not based upon leaning on your understanding of the Scriptures!!

So Paul wrote, Rm 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

But was that really how is was written?

Duet 29:4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

Is 29:10, 11 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. the entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book...

So to some the Word of God is like a sealed book to try an unseal; but my friend, to others the Word of God is a person that came down out of heaven, went to the cross and now makes His home within them. So the hear from the Word of God.

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God.

He, nor the words He speaks are subjective, but He is objective. And we don't preach the text, but the Lord, just like the text explains. So we tell people to hear Him by faith, and we use the Scriptures to back that up.

He explained, "He who is of God hears the words of God" (Jn 8:47), but to others He said, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word." (Jn 8:43)

So concerning the thread, we do not give 10% according to the Law, and we do not avoid giving 10% because it is part of the Law, but we talk to the Lord Jesus Christ, listen to what He tells us, and give what, where, and how He tells us to!!

And we do that because we don't want to speculate about the correct meaning of the text, but rather want to obey the voice of the One the text tells us about.

Still there are those speculating about whether giving 10% is part of the Law or not part of the Law. They both use Scriptures, but neither point people to the Lord because they don't believe He can actually be heard from. They say anything you might think is Him is simply a subjective word, because they don't believe.

As for me, I point people to the Lord Jesus Christ the Bible tells us about, and tell people to seek His voice and listen, just like the Bible says. But perhaps "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

is any man justified by law, even though he may think he is, in his subjective mind, contrary to the clear objective text?

a simple reply will suffice.

 

[K2K]

Contextually speaking, each of those have to do with either hearing the written word, or a spoken word as given through an OT prophet or through the incarnated Jesus Himself, or even in a few cases, not applicable at all because of a presumably hasty keyword search.

Reading and hearing are not the same thing!!!

All Gods people were called to the foot of the mountain to hear God speak to them. But they said, "Let not God talk to us". Whereas Moses wasn't like that. Moses went up the mountain, found God and started listening to Him. That is what made Moses a prophet!

This is true today even more so today, because Christ went to the cross and we have forgivenss of sins, which can keep us from seeking the Lord. So Paul told everyone to seek the gifts, especially that you might prophecy.

But what happens today, is exactly like what happened back then. God's people say, "Let not God talk to us", when they are at the foot of the mountain. They go to church, praise God Almighty, listen to the preacher telling them about Jesus Christ, but do not seek God's voice for themselves!! They don't desire the gifts and especially the gift of prophecy, because it would mean listening to the Lord.

So God puts them under the Law, and they write things like 'I decided 2 tithe 10%' instead of 'The Lord told me to give 10%', which shows that they are under the Law and thus not listening to every word that proceed out of the mouth of the God. And since the Bible has a lot to say about hearing the voice of the Lord, they have to change the word hearing to mean reading, because the Law for them is written down.

The Lord told me this morning and told me this phrase to use, "We don't study the Scriptures to know the Scriptures. We study the Scriptures to know the Lord."

Abraham gave 10 % once, but he didn't know the Scriptures, he knew God. The Law was for those that don't want to know the Lord, and that is what the Scriptures show us. The Scriptures explain that with their ears they barely hear, but we don't want to think that it is us the Scriptures were written to.

My friends, you must understand that God had the Scriptures written to you, and that because you don't seek Him!

This applies to me also. I hear from Him a dozen times a day, but I need to listen to His voice more.

So I try to increase my dozen times a day to more, and sometimes do. Sometimes I get to the point where I am hearing Him tell me to turn left here and right there, and those days are so wonderful. He tells me over and over how He loves me. Then again I have days where it get busy and forget to listen to Him. In my heart I say to myself, 'let not God talk to me today.' because I am to busy, which only means that I want to go where I want.

Yet because I do hear, I pick up His voice again, remember how nice it was to listen to Him. Then I try to tell others about listening to Him, but to my amazement, they think their reading the Bible is their hearing them.

It become obvious that they don't know Him, because they don't even understand what I am saying. And why don't they know Him? Isn't it because they study the Scriptures to know the Scriptures instead of studying the Scriptures to help them come to know the Lord?

Is 50:4,5... He awakens Me morning by morning, He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple. The Lord God has opened my ear...

What Isaiah wrote makes sense to me. Isaiah, a prophet, heard the voice of the Lord talking to Him each morning, and what he wrote about it was retained as a record of what it is supposed to be like. Yet some think that reading the record is like what Isaiah experienced. It is not. Isaiah listened as a disciple because the Lord God had opened his ear. Others read and think that is the same thing, which it obviously is not, because hearing and reading are not the same thing.

A book is written to everyone, so it is not a personal message. Hearing the Lord's small voice talking to you in the morning is personal. And though I wrote to you one of the things He personally told me this morning, if you don't start seeking what He has to say to you, you will never have that personal relationship with the Lord in which you hear Him say, "I love you".