To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[Frogster]

Nope.

Your entire existence on this forum as "Frogster" is dishonest from the word go, Pinetree, and we both know why. I know, I know... stop getting "personal".

If you really want to play this game, then just be sure you're prepared. I've got truth and honesty on my side. You? Not so much.

i am still waiting for u to disect my text.

 

[Frogster]

lator gator..going out for lunch.

 

[Messy]

i only wish we would apply the widow story to pastors also. besides, it was a freewill offering to the temple, to a properly ordained place, wasn't it? it was not to a beemer pastor.

But in 2 cor 8, paul said don't give, if one does not have, that would be poor people, and he told em give out of their ubundance...

I don't know where that money went. Why were the greedy pharisees so rich?
The sons of Eli took the offerings for themselves. That's why people despised the offering to the Lord. If someone gives to a ministry and it is wrongly used, God will deal with them. That doesn't say anything about the giver.
There was a thread on a Dutch christian forum about pastors in the USA getting 200.000 a year. It's good that you can't read Dutch. There was one christian who said it was normal.

 

[GaryArnold]

I'm curious... why do you think Jesus commended this widow?

Luke 21:1-4 (NIV)
Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
​

Earlier in this thread, you said this about poor people giving;

"The answer is in the scriptures. IF, after taking care of their own needs, and the needs of their family, they have anything left over, they may want to consider giving a portion of what is left over."
​

Yet here we have a woman who gave out of her poverty, and put in ALL she had to live on. This is contrary to what you say she should have done 'according to scripture'; you apparently believe that she should have first taken care of herself and then if she had anything left over after meeting her own needs, she might want to consider giving a portion of what was left over. You called giving where there is not a need "being a poor steward" in the next post.

Under the Old Testament, the widow that gave all she had WAS SUPPORTED BY THE TITHE. The poor didn't tithe. They RECEIVED a portion of the tithe.
OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

NEW TESTAMENT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Using the above principles, the New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

Is it best to give where there is NOT a need while there are those who are in need?

 

[Messy]

Frogster, if the money was given to the poor and the ones in need and also the leaders got a bit, like Peter and the others who were supported, but didn't have silver or gold, would you have a problem with people wanting to give 10 percent of their income willingly? Is this whole thread abouth giving 10 percent or about how it is taught and spent?

 

[GaryArnold]

I see the problem as how tithing is taught. I have no problem with someone giving a tenth of their income.

But I also see a problem with a majority of one's giving going to a corporation doing business as a church. That is not giving to God. Giving to the church you attend is really paying for services you are receiving. It isn't giving in the true sense of the word. The church goer is benefiting by hearing a sermon, and benefiting from the building, air conditioning, place to sit, etc. etc. etc. True giving is when you get NOTHING in return - no benefit. And Jesus said whatever you do for the needy you are doing for Him. Jesus NEVER said when you give to an organized corporation doing business as a church you are giving to Him. That is nothing but man manipulating people.

 

[FoundInGrace]

I see the problem as how tithing is taught. I have no problem with someone giving a tenth of their income.

But I also see a problem with a majority of one's giving going to a corporation doing business as a church. That is not giving to God. Giving to the church you attend is really paying for services you are receiving. It isn't giving in the true sense of the word. The church goer is benefiting by hearing a sermon, and benefiting from the building, air conditioning, place to sit, etc. etc. etc. True giving is when you get NOTHING in return - no benefit. And Jesus said whatever you do for the needy you are doing for Him. Jesus NEVER said when you give to an organized corporation doing business as a church you are giving to Him. That is nothing but man manipulating people.

perhaps you are right and we shouldnt give to the chutrch but expect those things for free...

when i give to my local church it is giving to God. the social services and outrach into the community that my very hardworking church does, you are right perhaps that i shouldnt
give to those things they should just happen out of no resources

the services.on sundays are mostly run by participating volunteers so i dont need to give to encourage them so they can get equipment that works

the pastors dont need to get paid so they can support their famies while they work hard researching the Bible so they can teach us abd counsel hurting people. they should do that for nothing.

perhaps your right theres no point giving to the localchurch. i benefit by being part of a group of people God loves and Jesus died for but i shouldnt give tbem my money of time to be a part of where God is.

 

[GaryArnold]

perhaps you are right and we shouldnt give to the chutrch but expect those things for free...

Where did I EVER say that one should not give to the church. I have said time and time and time again that those who attend church services have a moral obligation to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE of the expenses.

I have attended many different churches over the years and always gave generously. A pastor has a right to be PAID, and I have no problem with that. But those who think they are giving to God when they give to the church have been deceived. Even if a portion of what the organization collects goes to the poor, it is still ONLY A PORTION, and the ORGANIZATION takes credit for the giving.

Many "churches" operate without paying any pastor or anyone else. Many hold their services in homes, etc. Not all pastors teach tithing. Not all denominations teach tithing. It is the flat out false teaching that I fight against. When you have pastors flat out tell you they know tithing ended at the cross, but they have to make the congregation think that tithing is still required, and take scripture out of context to manipulate people, that is nothing but deception and fraud.

 

[Messy]

Amen.

 

[Frogster]

Frogster, if the money was given to the poor and the ones in need and also the leaders got a bit, like Peter and the others who were supported, but didn't have silver or gold, would you have a problem with people wanting to give 10 percent of their income willingly? Is this whole thread abouth giving 10 percent or about how it is taught and spent?

well..paul, titus, silas, barnabas, priscilla and aquila worked, and we know that was the heart of paul and money, as he also showed the ephesian elders to work in Acts 20. Lets also keep in mind, these guys were apostles, some were THE 12, or elders in the church, that was in a stressful time, a transitional time, 15 centuries of mosaic law was going away, there were persecutions, questions to be answered, elders to be taught, and sworn in, as per titus 1, and things were tough, false teachers creeping in as per Galatians, Colossians etc, so if anything, they deserved it. As far as peter not having silver, yes, he did not covet, and we see in acts 6, the money also went to widows.

So when todays stay at home mom pastors, try to use these apostles, to try to live off money from the poor, as they are not under persecution, driving beemers, it seems absurd for them to claim apostolic, peter like status. Agreed?

 

[Frogster]

Amen.

hi, I meant to say, that in acts 4, barnabas actually sold land, to help all, he is not like the mansion people who keep excess, while they demand tithe, or promise this great return of cash, to the sheep that send them money, all using text, 2 cor 8-9, that was not for paul. They keep using that story to get cash for themselves, when paul was getting the money for the poor, and it was a one time event for the corinthians, yet tithe teachers keep milking the story, to get money forever, totally mutilating the text.

 

[probinson]

Under the Old Testament, the widow that gave all she had WAS SUPPORTED BY THE TITHE. The poor didn't tithe. They RECEIVED a portion of the tithe.

And yet, she still gave ALL she had, giving out of her poverty, and Jesus commended her for it. Why?

NEW TESTAMENT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) “The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.”

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.”

Using the above principles, the New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

Do you believe in supernatural provision? I do. There have been plenty of times in my life where I felt God tell me to give something, even though I had obligations to my family. You see, I have a wife and 2 kids, and I am the sole income for our family. Yet God has asked me time and again to give, even when it looked like I couldn't afford to. There have even been times when God asked me to give money that I had earmarked for our needs. I must confess that I've not always obeyed. Like you suggest, I feel this need to provide for my family as the head of the house. But the times that I have obeyed and given as God directs, even when I couldn't afford it, God has shown me that HE is our provider. Sure, He uses me and my paycheck as a source, but I've learned that HE is our Source.

Without fail, every time God has asked me to give in a sacrificial manner, He has proven that He is our Jehovah Jireh.

I've learned that the best way I can provide for my family is to listen to THE Provider, Who doesn't always do things like I would.

Is it best to give where there is NOT a need while there are those who are in need?

You tell me;

Mark 14:3-5 (NIV)
While he [Jesus] was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly.
​

Sounds logical, doesn't it? I mean, this jar of perfume was worth more than an ENTIRE YEAR'S WAGES! Won't someone please think of all the poor people that could have been helped?!

But Jesus saw it differently;

Mark 14:6-9 (NIV)
“Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
​

We could guess how many poor people could be helped by something that cost MORE THAN A YEAR'S WAGES, but suffice to say, an awful lot of poor people could have had their needs met by selling that perfume. Yet Jesus didn't call her an infidel, nor did He become indignant about the "waste" of the perfume. No, He COMMENDED her for the "beautiful thing" she did.

By any logical measure to us, what this woman did was reckless, irresponsible and wasteful. Our human minds naturally want to side with those who said, "Think of the poor!" But Jesus did not see it that way. There was no "need" for the perfume to be poured on Jesus, but that is where the woman saw fit to use it for Jesus rather than to give it where there was a legitimate need.

So to answer your question, should we give where there is not a need? The answer is, "it depends", and this is why I am an advocate of giving when and where the Spirit leads us, and not based off of any preconceived ideas that we may have. Scripture shows time and again that what we think isn't always what God thinks. So we should follow His lead and obey whatever it is He tells us to do.

 

[Frogster]

And yet, she still gave ALL she had, giving out of her poverty, and Jesus commended her for it. Why?



Do you believe in supernatural provision? I do. There have been plenty of times in my life where I felt God tell me to give something, even though I had obligations to my family. You see, I have a wife and 2 kids, and I am the sole income for our family. Yet God has asked me time and again to give, even when it looked like I couldn't afford to. There have even been times when God asked me to give money that I had earmarked for our needs. I must confess that I've not always obeyed. Like you suggest, I feel this need to provide for my family as the head of the house. But the times that I have obeyed and given as God directs, even when I couldn't afford it, God has shown me that HE is our provider. Sure, He uses me and my paycheck as a source, but I've learned that HE is our Source.

Without fail, every time God has asked me to give in a sacrificial manner, He has proven that He is our Jehovah Jireh.

I've learned that the best way I can provide for my family is to listen to THE Provider, Who doesn't always do things like I would.



You tell me;

Mark 14:3-5 (NIV)
While he [Jesus] was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head. Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, “Why this waste of perfume? It could have been sold for more than a year’s wages and the money given to the poor.” And they rebuked her harshly.
​

Sounds logical, doesn't it? I mean, this jar of perfume was worth more than an ENTIRE YEAR'S WAGES! Won't someone please think of all the poor people that could have been helped?!

But Jesus saw it differently;

Mark 14:6-9 (NIV)
“Leave her alone,” said Jesus. “Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me. She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial. Truly I tell you, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
​

We could guess how many poor people could be helped by something that cost MORE THAN A YEAR'S WAGES, but suffice to say, an awful lot of poor people could have had their needs met by selling that perfume. Yet Jesus didn't call her an infidel, nor did He become indignant about the "waste" of the perfume. No, He COMMENDED her for the "beautiful thing" she did.

By any logical measure to us, what this woman did was reckless, irresponsible and wasteful. Our human minds naturally want to side with those who said, "Think of the poor!" But Jesus did not see it that way. There was no "need" for the perfume to be poured on Jesus, but that is where the woman saw fit to use it for Jesus rather than to give it where there was a legitimate need.

So to answer your question, should we give where there is not a need? The answer is, "it depends", and this is why I am an advocate of giving when and where the Spirit leads us, and not based off of any preconceived ideas that we may have. Scripture shows time and again that what we think isn't always what God thinks. So we should follow His lead and obey whatever it is He tells us to do.

but u r acting like my side of the isle does not think it a beautiful thing she did!

it's also beautiful when paul worked not to burden, but you seem to never want to praise or elaborate on that, why? Hmmmmmm

 

[probinson]

but u r acting like my side of the isle does not think it a beautiful thing she did!

Why do you not see it as wasteful, as did everyone standing around that witnessed it? I mean, you have the benefit of playing armchair quarterback and reading about it after the fact, but given your posts and your position concerning poor people and giving, I can't help but believe that you'd have been in the indignant crowd shouting "What about the poor?!"

BTW, I don't equate anybody else as being on "[your] side of the isle [sic]". I see your position as being an island unto itself. When I address you, I'm addressing only your "unique" position.

 

[Frogster]

Why do you not see it as wasteful, as did everyone standing around that witnessed it? I mean, you have the benefit of playing armchair quarterback and reading about it after the fact, but given your posts and your position concerning poor people and giving, I can't help but believe that you'd have been in the indignant crowd shouting "What about the poor?!"

BTW, I don't equate anybody else as being on "[your] side of the isle [sic]". I see your position as being an island unto itself. When I address you, I'm addressing only your "unique" position.

but who do you think the offering, where i quote text from is FOR...FOR?

THE POOR!

Paul went hungry also as he did not want to put his hand out for cash, like a real apostle, so Jehovah Jireh needs to not always be seen as cash.

 

[Frogster]

Why do you not see it as wasteful, as did everyone standing around that witnessed it? I mean, you have the benefit of playing armchair quarterback and reading about it after the fact, but given your posts and your position concerning poor people and giving, I can't help but believe that you'd have been in the indignant crowd shouting "What about the poor?!"

BTW, I don't equate anybody else as being on "[your] side of the isle [sic]". I see your position as being an island unto itself. When I address you, I'm addressing only your "unique" position.

oh come on...how about 1 lil ole post, praising paul, working while getting beat up all the time, as he did not want to burden.

just one, u posted about the widow, what about Paul?

cantchaa just make one for Paul?

 

[probinson]

Well, after another full day of posting, I think it's time I take my own advice and finally listen to what the Father has been speaking to me about this pointless "discussion" with Pinetree;

Proverbs 26:4 (AMP)
Answer not a [self-confident] fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him;
​

So you may have the last self-confident word, Pinetree.

 

[Frogster]

Thanks bro Paul, for enduring all you did for us, setting an example to all, while having your back opened up 5 times, being stoned, shipwrecked, jailed, beaten with rods, and daily anxiety for the churches, you chose to work, not to burden the people you loved, thanks, brother frogster.

 

[GaryArnold]

There have even been times when God asked me to give money that I had earmarked for our needs.

There's a BIG difference between obeying God's voice and pastors TEACHING that everyone, even the poor, should be giving. I am against TEACHING others how much they should give, or whether or not they should give. Each should seek His Spirit and then obey His Spirit.

It is not up to me to tell anyone who they should give to, or how much they should give. It is also not up to any pastor to be telling anyone who they should give to, or how much they should give.

 

[probinson]

There's a BIG difference between obeying God's voice and pastors TEACHING that everyone, even the poor, should be giving. I am against TEACHING others how much they should give, or whether or not they should give.

But isn't that what you're doing by saying the poor should take care of themselves first, and then if there's enough left over, maybe thinking about giving some of what's left?

Each should seek His Spirit and then obey His Spirit.

It is not up to me to tell anyone who they should give to, or how much they should give. It is also not up to any pastor to be telling anyone who they should give to, or how much they should give.

Then it would seem that we agree, because I believe that our giving should be Spirit led. I just am a bit surprised to see you say this after seeing you say that people should only give if they have enough left over after taking care of their own needs first.