How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Skaloop]

How do you know?

You may not realize it, but you have just answered your own dilemma.

It is not recorded in the Bible that God told Eve about the tree, only Adam:

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Yet, when the serpent-beast tempted her, she replied:

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Unless you think Eve is lying to the serpent, then you will have to admit that God discussed this with them beforehand.

Or that Adam told Eve about God's command. Meaning she didn't hear it from God Himself, but rather second-hand. Which diminished the authority of the command

 

[dad]

That is a circular argument which proves nothing. Given that humility is a requisite feature of any really holy person, the said holy person will never admit to being holy, or allow anyone else to say that they are.

So there are holy people running around, but they just can't admit it OK. Well hidden really. I never met one. I think Christians should face it, they are sinners that are forgiven.

It is like being mad. If you think you might be mad, you certainly are not. If you think you might be rather on the holy side of good, then you have something to learn.

Great, so if they do think they are holy (or the 'holy side') then they have something to learn.

This is not the same thing as saying there are no holy people, because there are; lots of them. But none of them knows it.

Not a real clear position, seemingly. Since you mentioned it I guess I might as well give my humble opinion.

There are none righteous, no not one. The worst people I met are ones that thought they were holy. All saved are holy people. Not because they do holy stuff, or don't stink, but because Jesus is holy. Not a works trip.

 

[hasone]

this god does exist, he can be found all over these forum pages, one that loves sinful behavior and winks at it to be sure, one that says all paths lead to righteousness, one that see's the bible as simply just another religious book of rules and outdated laws......you have come to the right place if this is the god your looking for

I don't think all paths lead to righteousness, personally. Or directly. I see life is complicated and crazy and twisty and turny and it could be that many paths lead to righteousness which it would seem don't, but not all. I haven't personally seen the god you describe on these forums, but I may be looking wrongly or in the wrong places. There's a lot of posts here.

Responding a bit to one of your previous posts, I think the popular notion of sanity is a bit overrated. If someone can live their life happily and without hurting others, does it matter much if their brain's different from the rest of us?

Now, to my regret, I have to head out to where there is no internet and earn my keep. I'll see you guys around.

 

[Jazer]

this god does exist, he can be found all over these forum pages, one that loves sinful behavior and winks at it to be sure, one that says all paths lead to righteousness, one that see's the bible as simply just another religious book of rules and outdated laws......you have come to the right place if this is the god your looking for

It that the God they are talking about that people have created for themselves?

 

[AV1611VET]

Or that Adam told Eve about God's command.

Let me quote this again, with emphasis:

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And yes, even if she got it from Adam, it doesn't diminish a thing.

 

[AV1611VET]

Now, to my regret, I have to head out to where there is no internet...

You work in a dead zone, do you?

Or is it you don't have satellite and are blaming the Internet?

 

[Skaloop]

Let me quote this again, with emphasis:

Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And yes, even if she got it from Adam, it doesn't diminish a thing.

Nothing there, despite your emphasis, shows that God spoke directly to Eve regarding eating from the tree.

And the command is diminished because there's no way that Adam can convey the issue the same way that God can, since he was just a man and God is a god. It lacks the same authority.

Think of it like being in the army. If you're a private and another private comes along and says "Sarge says you've gotta do twenty pushups" you're not going to be as quick and willing to do it as if the sergeant himself tells you to do it. Even if that was in fact what the sergeant told him.

 

[Catherineanne]

The only voice I know is my own (if you mean that "little voice in the back of your head" thing).

There is your own voice, yes. But there is another one as well. It is not easy even for people who have been Christians for a long, long time to distinguish between the two, but they are both there.

Are there other places I can see god besides homeless people? I'm extremely leery of them.

Children. Sick people. Elderly people. Men. Women. Anyone at all, if you know how to look.

Everyone is made in the image of God, and contains a spark of the Divine.

That assessment would've been true about me years ago. Presently, it's not really an accurate description.

Fair enough. Your choice, really.

So, how would you know if God responded to your seeking, exactly?

 

[Catherineanne]

Then I'm perfectly comfortable with your god not sending me to any bad place, because I used the mind that he gave me

God doesn't send anyone anywhere. He gives us a free choice, and some of us prefer to live without acknowleging him.

Hell is not a punishment. It is a free choice, freely made. And the worst kind of hell is on earth, nowhere else.

 

[selfinflikted]

There is your own voice, yes. But there is another one as well. It is not easy even for people who have been Christians for a long, long time to distinguish between the two, but they are both there.

How do you distinguish between the two?

Children. Sick people. Elderly people. Men. Women. Anyone at all, if you know how to look.

I suppose I lack the know-how.

Fair enough. Your choice, really.

It's not a choice per se. I could lie to myself, I suppose, and say that I believe, but it would be just that - a lie. I simply need to be convinced, and nothing I've ever experienced has done that.

So, how would you know if God responded to your seeking, exactly?

Well, people say it's unmistakably life-changing. I've not had any experience like that.

 

[Non sequitur]

God doesn't send anyone anywhere. He gives us a free choice, and some of us prefer to live without acknowleging him.

I prefer to not acknowledge many things. It makes them no more real than not real.

Hell is not a punishment. It is a free choice, freely made. And the worst kind of hell is on earth, nowhere else.

Even if you want to stretch it, Hell is an "alternative option".

Then my free choice, freely made, is not to go to a Christian hell.

 

[Catherineanne]

Then my free choice, freely made, is not to go to a Christian hell.

Mine too. The way not to live in hell is to live in communion with God.

 

[Catherineanne]

How do you distinguish between the two?

Usually from the context. If it says something I rather want to do (ie why not have another biscuit) then it is me.

If it says something I would rather not do, but really should (get out of bed and go to Mass), then chances are it is God. I don't always pay attention, of course, but that doesn't mean he isn't there.

I suppose I lack the know-how.

It is only a matter of looking, and knowing what you are looking for. Like playing Where's Wally.

It's not a choice per se. I could lie to myself, I suppose, and say that I believe, but it would be just that - a lie. I simply need to be convinced, and nothing I've ever experienced has done that.

Fine. If you are not convinced, you would be silly to believe.

Well, people say it's unmistakably life-changing. I've not had any experience like that.

It isn't always a Road to Damascus experience. Sometimes it can be very, very small.

 

[Freodin]

Mine too. The way not to live in hell is to live in communion with God.

You might recognize that such a claim is not very convincing for unbelievers. Rather the opposite.

 

[Catherineanne]

You might recognize that such a claim is not very convincing for unbelievers. Rather the opposite.

Fortunately for me, it is not my job to convince anyone of anything. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

I am who I am, you are who you are. I am communicating, not proselysising.

 

[Freodin]

Fortunately for me, it is not my job to convince anyone of anything. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

I am who I am, you are who you are. I am communicating, not proselysising.

And again: a position that is no convincing for unbelievers, rather the opposite.

I know that the following quote is not from you, but it is rather telling, I think, and from the very beginning of this thread when the OP told why some creationists pushed him away from Christianity.

"Any theistic evolutionists around here to lead this person to Christ?"


Personally, I see a clear distinction between "convincing" and "pushing away". I don't find apologetic arguments convincing. I really don't know what way or argument or revelation could "lead me to Christ".

But I know that I find Christians acting like jerks - evading, misleading, trolling, smirking, whatever - rather repulsive. I have found that my patience for such behavior - and what I see as such behaviour, even if the propagator thinks it completely innocent - has run rather thin in the last months.

Let's take your approach. If you were communicating your beliefs, I would disagree with them, but that would be the end of it. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

But as soon as you start to announce them as facts, I want to see some backup. And then such an evasive answer as yours is annoying at the most.

Most likely, you don't care. You don't think you have done anything wrong. None of you ever thinks that.

But perhaps you should.

Not only are you not convincing.... you are actively pushing people away!

 

[Insane_Duck]

Fortunately for me, it is not my job to convince anyone of anything. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.

I am who I am, you are who you are. I am communicating, not proselysising.

Statisitcally Atheists know more about religion than Christians do. If you aren't trying to convince us, why not just stop posting and let the holy spirit do it's job? (i.e. Why are you posting this stuff in the first place if you know it isn't convincing?)

 

[AV1611VET]

Statisitcally Atheists know more about religion than Christians do.

Surprise me.

 

[Catherineanne]

Let's take your approach. If you were communicating your beliefs, I would disagree with them, but that would be the end of it. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.

But as soon as you start to announce them as facts, I want to see some backup. And then such an evasive answer as yours is annoying at the most.

Most likely, you don't care. You don't think you have done anything wrong. None of you ever thinks that.

But perhaps you should.

Not only are you not convincing.... you are actively pushing people away!

What specific question do you think I have evaded?

Why is it that me answering a question in my way, rather than the way you want to see, results in you feeling repulsed? That would seem to imply a rather unrealistic expectation on your part.

You are surprised that I present as a fact that I believe in God? Or that his voice can be heard, if we know how to hear it? Or that we can see him in our brothers and sisters?

Would you prefer me not to be sure of these things? How would that help anyone, exactly? I can't pretend to be unsure of things that I know because I have experienced them.

Would you rather hear about my doubts? I have doubts sometimes, yes. Never about God's existence, but certainly of his love for me, and his wish for me to go to church. Does that help?

I am not really sure what you are looking for. I can only be who I am.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Surprise me.

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

About religion in general, Atheists (and Agnostics) score the highest. Athiests score third highest about Christianity. (behind Mormons and White Evangelicals)