How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Insane_Duck]

Would you prefer me not to be sure of these things?

Yes. No one should pretend to be absolutely certain of anything.

 

[Catherineanne]

Statisitcally Atheists know more about religion than Christians do. If you aren't trying to convince us, why not just stop posting and let the holy spirit do it's job? (i.e. Why are you posting this stuff in the first place if you know it isn't convincing?)

Nice try. I did not say that what I say is not convincing; it may be or it may not be. I said it was not my job to do the convincing. Different thing. I could post the most erudite argument in the history of the world, but without the Holy Spirit to convict anyone reading it, it will just be so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Why am I here? To have fun, to tallk to people. To have fellowship with other Christians. You might notice I am a Christian on a Christian forum. I am not a missionary to the heathen of the world.

Meanwhile, I would be mildly amazed if you can find me an atheist who knows more about my faith than I do. Not that I am particularly clever, but I have lived my faith for a long time, and without that living, it is really not at all easy to understand.

 

[Catherineanne]

Yes. No one should pretend to be absolutely certain of anything.

That is just silly. There are lots of things we can be absolutely certain of.

Well tried with the weasel 'pretend' btw. It won't work, but well done for trying.

 

[Insane_Duck]

That is just silly. There are lots of things we can be absolutely certain of.

Nonsense. You can't be absolutely certain of anything until you know everything. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I don't know with absolute certainty.

 

[AV1611VET]

U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey - Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life

About religion in general, Atheists (and Agnostics) score the highest. Athiests score third highest about Christianity. (behind Mormons and White Evangelicals)

Well -- you did say 'religion', didn't you?

My bad for assuming you explicitly meant 'Christianity'.

 

[AV1611VET]

I know beyond a reasonable doubt that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I don't know with absolute certainty.

I do.

 

[Catherineanne]

Nonsense. You can't be absolutely certain of anything until you know everything. I know beyond a reasonable doubt that the sun will come up tomorrow, but I don't know with absolute certainty.

I am sorry to hear that.

Meanwhile, my husband is dead. I am absolutely certain.

You can take my word for it, or you can choose not to believe it, but either way, it is just as much true. Your believing or not is a matter of total indifference to me, because I know.

QED.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I did not say that what I say is not convincing; it may be or it may not be. I said it was not my job to do the convincing. Different thing. I could post the most erudite argument in the history of the world, but without the Holy Spirit to convict anyone reading it, it will just be so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Why am I here? To have fun, to tallk to people. To have fellowship with other Christians. You might notice I am a Christian on a Christian forum. I am not a missionary to the heathen of the world.

Meanwhile, I would be mildly amazed if you can find me an atheist who knows more about my faith than I do. Not that I am particularly clever, but I have lived my faith for a long time, and without that living, it is really not at all easy to understand.

You'll find that many Atheists in the U.S. are former Christians. (my self included) And a fairly energetic one at that.

Just don't try to wave aside people who say that your arguments are unconvincing to non-Christians. (non-your-type-of-Christian) If you use arguments that only work when you have accepted the conclusion there really isn't much point in making them.

If the holy spirit is doing all of your work, then why bother contradict Atheists at all? I'm sure they'll convert anyway, because you have God on your side.

 

[dad]

Nonsense. You can't be absolutely certain of anything until you know everything....

Are you absolutely certain of that? If so I guess you know everything. If not, then I guess you aren't in any position to accuse those who say they do know of not knowing.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Well -- you did say 'religion', didn't you?

My bad for assuming you explicitly meant 'Christianity'.

I would think so. They still score higher than most Christians, (about Christianity) including Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Are you absolutely certain of that? If so I guess you know everything. If not, then I guess you aren't in any position to accuse those who say they do know of not knowing.

I'm not absolutely certain of that.

Based on the logical principles I see around me, I can conclude (beyond a reasonable doubt) that a human can't be absolutely certain.

I'm happy to add a disclaimer that a religion wouldn't dream of: "Feel free to contradict me, I could be wrong."

 

[Insane_Duck]

I do.

The only place absolute certainty exists is in the minds of the religious.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I am sorry to hear that.

Meanwhile, my husband is dead. I am absolutely certain.

You can take my word for it, or you can choose not to believe it, but either way, it is just as much true. Your believing or not is a matter of total indifference to me, because I know.

QED.

See above.

 

[Catherineanne]

If the holy spirit is doing all of your work, then why bother contradict Atheists at all? I'm sure they'll convert anyway, because you have God on your side.

I think you will find I try not to make a habit of contradicting anyone much; constantly contradicting people is not a polite way of conversing, and is not really going to get anyone very far.

But you are perfectly right, the Holy Spirit moves in his own time and in his own way. For one thing, it was not me who invited all you lovely atheists to come to a Christian Forum.

 

[Catherineanne]

See above.

Ditto.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I think you will find I try not to make a habit of contradicting anyone much; constantly contradicting people is not a polite way of conversing, and is not really going to get anyone very far.

But you are perfectly right, the Holy Spirit moves in his own time and in his own way. For one thing, it was not me who invited all you lovely atheists to come to a Christian Forum.

I came here to get a different opinion. Having discussions that only work if both sides agree is hardly productive.

As for the holy spirit, we'll see.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Ditto.

Where should I be seeing above to?

 

[dad]

I'm not absolutely certain of that.

Based on the logical principles I see around me, I can conclude (beyond a reasonable doubt) that a human can't be absolutely certain.

You are human? Then you can't be certain that others don't know. All you can do is have reasonable doubts that you know. But I might trade in these little rules for more solid ones, who made them up anyhow?

I'm happy to add a disclaimer that a religion wouldn't dream of: "Feel free to contradict me, I could be wrong."

You could be wrong, absolutely. But apparently you aren't certain either way.

Those that believe in God can't be wrong if there is a God. He is as well known as the sun to many billions over time. His effects are known also. Ask someone if they could be wrong that the sun exists....that might give you some idea of what certainty is. Now imagine someone tells you that you are not certain the sun is there.

 

[Catherineanne]

The only place absolute certainty exists is in the minds of the religious.

I think that may be a misunderstanding. We exist in an imperfect world, where perfection does not exist.

When a person of faith has a certainty about their faith, that certainty is not invested in their own belief, or their own interpretation. It is invested in the God they happen to believe in.

We can be sure of some things, just as atheists can. To suggest otherwise is just silly.

The difference comes when atheists seem to claim only to believe what can be externally validated, as if the world works like that. It doesn't. There are huge swathes of knowledge that have to be taken on faith, and not just religious beliefs. It strikes me as bizarre that an atheist who can happily believe medical 'facts' and geological 'facts' and historical 'facts' and even socioeconomic 'facts' will then balk at believing religious 'facts' as if they fall into another kind of category. Some do, but some don't.

Our lives are made up of huge amounts of faith in all sorts of things. The stock market is precious little else, for one thing.

So why pick on religion, as if we are any different?

 

[selfinflikted]

Usually from the context. If it says something I rather want to do (ie why not have another biscuit) then it is me.

If it says something I would rather not do, but really should (get out of bed and go to Mass), then chances are it is God. I don't always pay attention, of course, but that doesn't mean he isn't there.

So, god only tells you to do things you don't want to do. Anything pleasurable is you, anything uncomfortable or unpleasant is god. That doesn't make much sense, though, I understand what you mean.

It is only a matter of looking, and knowing what you are looking for. Like playing Where's Wally.

Incidentally, why do you think god likes to play that particular game of hide-and-go-seek? It's not very conducive to a proper relationship, imo.

Fine. If you are not convinced, you would be silly to believe.

It isn't always a Road to Damascus experience. Sometimes it can be very, very small.

So then, what you're ultimately saying is.. I have nothing to worry about. I should just sit back, relax, and let god do his thing on his own time?