How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[MoonLancer]

You guys and your [so-called] science, is like a little kid with a real gun.

Oh oh i love analogies. Lets try this unrelated one. Its like a Father (God) giving his children a gun, telling them not to play with the gun knowing ahead of time that they will. And then punishing them when they play with it.

Can you guess where the shows up in the bible?

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh oh i love analogies. Lets try this unrelated one. Its like a Father (God) giving his children a gun, telling them not to play with the gun knowing ahead of time that they will. And then punishing them when they play with it.

Can you guess where the shows up in the bible?

And your analogy fails.

I'm sure you don't think it does, but for the lurkers, here's why:

1. God didn't "give" Adam & Eve the Tree of Knowledge -- in fact, He did just the opposite.*
2. Adam & Eve were not "children" -- they were full-grown married adults.
3. Adam & Eve knew full-well the consequences of their actions.

* Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
* Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Cabal]

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system.

The point about the impossibility of coherency was the correct one, IMO, but for the wrong reasons.

But yes, despite what they like to think, the loud evangelical types do not speak for all of Christianity, far from it.

I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards.

It is possible to a point, but I think you ultimately have to sacrifice either logical consistency or enough of the Bible that it starts becoming meaningless, which brings things back to the problem of a lack of coherency.

I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

Don't stop looking, anyway. I've not totally closed that avenue off either - I don't expect to go back down it again, but frankly it's rare to find a believer bring a novel argument to the table for Christianity.

 

[selfinflikted]

God in general?

The Christian god.

I would say without holiness no man shall see God. Even if you want to catch a fish you have to use the right bait.

So god must be baited?

 

[hasone]

Wow this forum moves fast.

I meant my story in part as a message to christians who don't reject science. I suspect that my case - where the loudest and most evangelical group in my area were creationists, is common. If they are the first christians to get to people like me, people like me are going to reject christianity. Is a group of creationists the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in your community? Why? Are they bringing more seekers to the faith than they are pushing away?

But, of course, part of the reason that I posted a story instead of asking that directly was that I hoped the discussion would go off in ways I didn't expect, which it certainly did.

As for converting me in particular (if that's what interests you), I don't think this thread would be the place to do it, because many of the questions I'd need answered have nothing to do with science. If you're interested in that, feel free to PM me.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wow this forum moves fast.

I meant my story in part as a message to christians who don't reject science. I suspect that my case - where the loudest and most evangelical group in my area were creationists, is common. If they are the first christians to get to people like me, people like me are going to reject christianity. Is a group of creationists the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in your community? Why? Are they bringing more seekers to the faith than they are pushing away?

But, of course, part of the reason that I posted a story instead of asking that directly was that I hoped the discussion would go off in ways I didn't expect, which it certainly did.

As for converting me in particular (if that's what interests you), I don't think this thread would be the place to do it, because many of the questions I'd need answered have nothing to do with science. If you're interested in that, feel free to PM me.

Who are you talking to? are you in linear mode? if not, I can give you instructions how to switch.

 

[hasone]

Who are you talking to? are you in linear mode? if not, I can give you instructions how to switch.

I believe I stated my target audience quite clearly in the post itself, and it should be equally clear that you were not in it. I leave the textual analysis necessary to figure out why to you.

I don't share your apparent conviction that only one conversation must be allowed in any thread at once, I think a thread can handle more as long as all conversations relate to the topic of the thread. If people don't choose to respond to the substance of my previous post, so be it. I have in no way stopped you from continuing any conversation you were a part of.

That's all I'll be saying about that. If anyone does wants to reply to the substance of my previous post, feel free.

 

[Beth-Zur]

hasone: Good post.

There is a web page you may find of interest at: tektonics<dot>org/scim/sciencemony.htm (new to CF and unable to link yet).

There are (very) many links there, but here is a small taste:

Dr. Francis S. Collins is Director of the National Human Genome Research Institute at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. He currently leads the Human Genome Project, directed at mapping and sequencing all of human DNA, and determining aspects of its function. His previous research has identified the genes responsible for cystic fibrosis, neurofibromatosis, Huntington's disease and Hutchison-Gilford progeria syndrome. He is a member of the Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences. For the rest of his credentials, click on the link here: genome<dot>gov/10000980. Collins spoke with Bob Abernethy of PBS, posted online at pbs<dot>org/wnet/religionandethics/transcripts/collins.html, in which he summaries the compatability of fact and faith thusly:

"I think there's a common assumption that you cannot both be a rigorous, show-me-the-data scientist and a person who believes in a personal God. I would like to say that from my perspective that assumption is incorrect; that, in fact, these two areas are entirely compatible and not only can exist within the same person, but can exist in a very synthetic way, and not in a compartmentalized way. I have no reason to see a discordance between what I know as a scientist who spends all day studying the genome of humans and what I believe as somebody who pays a lot of attention to what the Bible has taught me about God and about Jesus Christ. Those are entirely compatible views.

"Science is the way -- a powerful way, indeed -- to study the natural world. Science is not particularly effective -- in fact, it's rather ineffective -- in making commentary about the supernatural world. Both worlds, for me, are quite real and quite important. They are investigated in different ways. They coexist. They illuminate each other. And it is a great joy to be in a position of being able to bring both of those points of view to bear in any given day of the week. The notion that you have to sort of choose one or the other is a terrible myth that has been put forward, and which many people have bought into without really having a chance to examine the evidence. I came to my faith not, actually, in a circumstance where it was drummed into me as a child, which people tend to assume of any scientist who still has a personal faith in God; but actually by a series of compelling, logical arguments, many of them put forward by C. S. Lewis, that got me to the precipice of saying, 'Faith is actually plausible.' You still have to make that step. You will still have to decide for yourself whether to believe. But you can get very close to that by intellect alone."
Peace.

 

[Catherineanne]

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.

It is not at all impossible to believe in God as the Creator of everything in the Universe, and in science as a way of finding out how God's creation functions.

There is no need to choose one or the other; plenty of Christians worldwide are very happy to have both.

The Creationist version of God is simply several orders of magnitude too small.

 

[Catherineanne]

Is it possible to be a mature, intelligent Christian without being an evolutionist?

FYI, none of the authors of the Bible were "mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist", and every Christian on the planet today are believers because of what those authors taught.

According to the Bible, the earth is flat and square, and the sky over us is like a tent.

There is clearly a disparity between the knowledge available to those who wrote the Bible and people today. The authors of the Bible were certainly mature and intelligent; lack of knowledge is not the same thing as lack of intelligence.

There is no reason whatever why when we are reading Isaiah today we have to believe that the earth is actually flat, square, and with the sky like a tent. Nor is there any reason whatever to believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old. That demands a level of doublethink which is not good for anyone, and does our faith as a whole a huge disservice. We are told to love God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength. We are not told to leave our mind in a box at home, and to go to church without it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Then what would you say to someone who pursued god for years and was left empty handed?

Do you mean yourself? If so, where did you go to pursue God?

 

[Catherineanne]

So how does that work, we need to be holy? Ever met someone holy yet?

I have.

 

[Catherineanne]

I am. But holy is hardly the word that I'd use to describe me. Funny, when I meet people that think they are holy, a difference of opinion seems to emerge...

That is a circular argument which proves nothing. Given that humility is a requisite feature of any really holy person, the said holy person will never admit to being holy, or allow anyone else to say that they are.

It is like being mad. If you think you might be mad, you certainly are not. If you think you might be rather on the holy side of good, then you have something to learn.

This is not the same thing as saying there are no holy people, because there are; lots of them. But none of them knows it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Anyway it's just a story so live with it.

The creation account is a series of stories, not just one.

 

[Jazer]

The Christian god.

So god must be baited?

Where are we going with this? R U really interested in getting saved and getting right with God? Because we can help you with that. But there are other boards on here that are more set up for that sort of thing. A new convert is like a new baby and they can bring you along one baby step at a time. To help you to understand the work that God is doing in your life.

 

[frankleespeaking]

First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.

This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.

I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.

When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.

It don't matter who pushed you from believing this or that! You won't have anyone to point a finger at, you will stand before God all by yourself. and regardless of who taught you what, and who did this or that isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. you will stand before God and be judged, let me let you in on a little secret, your own mind is keeping the record. I have first hand experience on how this works, I was shown every sinful thing I ever did all at the same time, It doesn't make sense I know, but it was like looking up at a star filled night sky, and I could clearly see tens of thousands of incidences of sinful acts, all at the same time, and again all at the same time I was able to acknowledge each and every act individually, you say this sounds impossible, God is impossible to comprehend, if you think your going to fathem and understand Him you won't, but I assure you someday you will believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is very real, and everything He does, seems to break all laws and physics and perameters of what we know and understand.......one last thought, He said he was going to make the wise look foolish.....so don't get to wise

 

[Split Rock]

It is my contention that scientific theories often contradict reality and this is why they are often falsified.

Hey, you actually posted something about science that is correct! Congratulations!!!
Yes, when a scientific theory or hypothesis contradicts reality, it is indeed falsified. Too bad for your dogma, Deep Time, Evolution and Big Bang cosmology do not fall into this category.

 

[Split Rock]

Well, neither you nor I have a dress...right? Neither you nor I are all that holy...right? What we should pretend?

Obviously, you have decided to pretend to be the Inerrant Prophet of Almighty God on Earth. How's that working for you? Any new followers recruited to dad's Church of One yet?

 

[Jazer]

Why would God put it there if it was not to be part of his plans?

God does test people. In fact we are all tested. It all comes down to He is God and we are not. As a Christian we learn how to submit ourselves to Him and His plan. I have learned that my way of doing things does not work. I am far better off to follow God and to do things His way.

 

[Jazer]

everything He does, seems to break all laws and physics and perameters of what we know and understand.......

That is why they had to come up with quantum physics.