• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why are atheists considered to be so dishonest?

godisreal36

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2010
1,645
94
State of ohio, USA
✟2,178.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
So thinks a man so is he. If a man thinks something is good then it is for that man.
There is a way to man that seems right but leads unto death.

Forget what men say. The bible says that God's Son is Jesus and he has given him authority and he died for our sin and was resurrected and now sits at gods right hand. God is the father but Jesus is his son, not a mere instrument. He is gods son. I know this struggle you go through. i also have been where you are. Don't worry, all things work for the good of those that love god.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟65,945.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
To some extent you are correct in stating what I believe. I do agree that second hand accounts of what God is is useless. What I think when I say this is probably much different from what you think though, such are the wonders of communication. One thing I learned when I came to hear God speak is that hearing the truth about God has <=-1 to do with hearing truth come from God Himself.

That would be marvy. But, it hasn't happened.

I don't believe the Bible is ambiguous evidence of God, rather it is a black and white account of God's involvement with certain people through history, and obviously the book itself isn't proof of God otherwise everyone would believe upon reading it. Rather, it serves the purpose well for those who choose to use it well and there are many people who can explain how the book actually makes God less ambiguous and better defined.

Well, here's my problem with that. Different people interpret the Bible differently, and the various visions of God are often drastically different. Clearly people inject God into the Bible, not take God out of it, and it is impossible for an outsider to realistically pick and choose which "Christian" is presenting God correctly, as it is far more likely that the Bible is something God is injected into, not taken out of. That makes the Bible pretty ambiguous as far as evidence goes.

I think you could be getting confused by speaking to Christians since they aren't the one and only Word of God made flesh (John 1:1-14), therefore all our words are imperfect. Look to Jesus' words though and see if they aren't perfect. Look to the Holy Bible and see if the words aren't perfect. This is the problem you have with trying to ascertain truth from your fellow man, we are all just little God-like things running around trying to be God demonstrating our inherent imperfection to each other.

Again, I will point to the dizzying number of interpretations of the Bible, and suggest that no, the words in the Bible, and the words of Jesus are far from perfect.

This is why it's a tactic I try to avoid, you can't actually describe God with words. The Bible records God's interaction with people, it doesn't actually describe His nature because an infinite someone cannot be sufficiently described with words.

I totally agree with this. Except I will take it a few steps farther. How can we even begin to describe God? How can we say that God is good, or love when clearly such a mundane label does not apply? Heck, how can we even call such a thing "God," when even that label brings with it ideas, and concepts which fall far below what such a thing would be?

Even you or I can't be sufficiently described with words. All the religious belief that has attempted to describe God suddenly makes sense when you come to hear God's voice and realize who He is, until that point you are just stuck with your imagination trying to picture this flying spaghetti monster.

Actually, I don't try to imagine God. Seems like a pointless exercise.

No, the Bible teaches us who God is by showing us His nature, His response to certain situations and the types of decisions He makes.

If you can talk to God, why do you need a book to tell you what He's like?

This is one way we can come to be familiar with God's nature that when we become spiritually perceptive we can pick God's voice from among the chorus of lies trying to sway our beliefs away from the truth.

Again, skepticism rises up. The Bible is what we would call a primer. It puts an idea in your head, and then you use selective evidence to find reasons to support that idea, and then ignore the evidence that isn't really there. People do it all the time.

We draw associations to make sense of the world, this is the human plight to understand the world we live in. I think what you're saying about those who make up their own image of God could quite well be indulging in idolatry.

So, why would I think that you're not doing it too?

See if they have scripture to back up their claims about God being male/female/non-gendered and white supremest or the provider of riches, and whether the scripture is being twisted out of it's original context. The people whose seed falls amongst thorns really do have a tendency to twist scripture out of context because the way they read the Bible is to find proof of their beliefs. There is no humility there, they are actually telling God what He should be saying and these are also the ones in John 15.

Hey, from where I sit, it's all out of context. Please remember, I have no reason to trust the Bible on anything.

That demonstrates a fear of God exists even in those who don't know the God of Israel. There's plenty of times God has been put up against a false god and He came out on top. Same can't be said for god against god I don't think, their house is a shambles. As for God being in charge of every facet of existence, from rain to drought, I do tend to believe He is. The reason why there is flooding and drought in various parts of the word? No idea. Possibly due to geography especially the destruction of rain forest for pasture I suspect would have an impact on global weather stability. I'm not an expert in weather, I do believe Elijah in 1 Kings 17 had been speaking God's will when God said He would cease the rain.

Don't presume this is so. I don't disbelieve these gods exist, I just don't trust them.

Exactly (I think)! So why should I trust your God?

And really, it isn't me who you think is driving this division, it is Jesus the Christ who claims to be the son of God. You either believe He is the Lord, a liar or a lunatic. I don't see any other opinion you could have about Him.

I don't have to believe any of those things. I don't believe that Jesus as described in the Bible even existed. Remember, I have no reason to hold the Bible as an authority on anything.

That doesn't answer the question, why is skepticism valuable. Just because everyone has disagreements does not substantiate skepticism. You happen to have disagreements because you are skeptical.

That's true. They don't even have to disagree. Without substantive evidence, I don't see why I shouldn't be skeptical.

Interesting, does the world revolve around you and only you? Maybe one day you will actually see that it revolves around God, as it ought to. Some people just can't manage to accept this so they deny it. I'm interested to discover the motive behind this, hence why I asked you.

No, but my understanding of God ultimately comes down to me, and my "understanding of god." As I said, I have not encountered a person whose concept of God is not what they desire or expect God to be. Fred Phelps found a God who hates everybody, Calvinists and Jews both coincidently found a God who created them to be His chosen people, reconstructinists created a God who is vengeful, and angry. I'm just saying that I have not created a God concept to believe in.

Right there: do you expect that when you believe you will have the same faith as someone else? Why would you think so?

Well no, but I don't see the relevance. I'm not talking about putting questions to other people, I'm talking about questioning my own faith. When I do, faith erodes.

Yes I would. If however I lived after you had existed and people had given their accounts of witnessing your unassisted flight or mind reading, I would believe so unless there was proof that it was a hoax.

So, do you believe in Hinduism? Scientology? Islam? These are all religions that have people giving their accounts, that claim to have witnesses, and that cannot be disproved? I doubt you're a Scientologist.

I understand such proof doesn't exist in the case of Jesus, do you happen to have some proof against Jesus?

Even if I did, I do not require proof against Jesus to justify non-belief. That there is no proof for the existence of Jesus is reason enough for me to be skeptical.

Don't you believe animals can communicate? I talk with dogs and they listen and talk back. Not with words mind you, but you can tell what they think about this and that.

They can communicate. That's not the same thing as talking.

This is good, actually a bone with meat on it. I'm pretty sure even those with faith in their religion, even those of the Islamic religion would have some skepticism when someone says that.

Why would they? At what point do we exercise skepticism, and when do we believe blindly? At what point do we listen to God, and at what point are we skeptical of what he says?

It could very well be to do with the twisting of scripture to support a belief.

Nobody consciously twists scripture though. I'm sure I can find a person or two million who will tell me that you twist scripture.

What I'm getting at though, which you seem to be evading, is why do you think being skeptical about God is a good thing? Is there some sort of perceived risk if you were to acknowledge God?

Is there some sort of risk to being skeptical of my mind-reading ability? But, I'm sure you are. It's not a matter of it being good or bad, it's just how I am. Why should I not be skeptical? Why would it be good to not be skeptical of things that defy explanation?

Ah, we are getting somewhere. You like to be correct do you? I am thinking that might be what motivates you to deny God until you've had sufficient proof that makes Him undeniable. Is this an accurate assertion?

Like every other human, I do like to be correct. I suspect that you believe you are correct about God. However, I would pretty much require sufficient evidence that gives me enough reason to accept something. Now, I could picture other scenarios, but those seem unlikely to happen.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hi JGG, great to hear from you, I see there's not much point going on with a reply like this, so I'll just make a quick comment about one thing that stands out:
That would be marvy. But, it hasn't happened.
Again, I will point to the dizzying number of interpretations of the Bible, and suggest that no, the words in the Bible, and the words of Jesus are far from perfect.
God is not the type to entertain mockers, perhaps that is why He hasn't spoken to you. Maybe one day if you can manage to stop blaming Him for what others have done, you might be able to give Him the respect He deserves.

Nonetheless, best wishes to you, I hope you have a happy new year and even more importantly I hope you will soon decide to seek the water of life that Jesus gives, it's a real suffering to see someone struggle so hard to accept Him. You know, no-one can convey to you how it feels when the penny drops and you realize how wrong you were while you were arguing with Him.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟65,945.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Hi JGG, great to hear from you, I see there's not much point going on with a reply like this, so I'll just make a quick comment about one thing that stands out:


God is not the type to entertain mockers, perhaps that is why He hasn't spoken to you. Maybe one day if you can manage to stop blaming Him for what others have done, you might be able to give Him the respect He deserves.

When I was 21, my church declared me a heretic, and my family abandoned me in favour of the church. I moved to a new city, started school, and spent years searching for God. However, without people whispering in my ear, I had to figure things out for myself, and hope that God would give me a sign, or simply give me faith. It just didn't happen. So I started to look for God among other ideas, and my concept of God just got larger, and more expansive, and vague, and ultimately contradictory to the point where the concept was too big to keep hold of, and I admitted to myself that I just didn't know anymore. I also couldn't say that I believed in any of these things, and remain honest. I found a certain joy in finding meaning in the existence I could be confident I had, rather than the existence I wished was there, but could never know. I neither blame God for my idiot siblings, nor do I credit God for the vastness of philosophical thought. There is no need to.

Then my wife died, and not long after that, my mother too, both from cancer.

Now reasonably, this would be the point in someone's life where they look to heaven, and ask of God: "why?" But I didn't, and I don't. It is much simpler to say: Good and bad things happen to everyone, and that's just the way things go. My concept was too big, and too uncertain to say that God had a hand in it. So while some people find comfort in God having control over everything, and doing everything for a reason we couldn't fathom, I found comfort in the idea that "God" wasn't "doing" anything. Nobody was being punished, there was no great significane, or reason behind it. The variables that lead to the deaths of my loved ones were far too numerous to try to cast any sort of blame on anything. Bad things just happen, often for no reason. There's no reason to bring God into the equation. I am still very comfortable with the non-explanatory explanation.

However, the flip side is that all the good things in my life, all of the positive things that have happened, have all happened because of hard work, and good circumstance. There is no reason to inject God into that either. Good things happen to people too. I don't feel the need to thank some God for my son, or my job, or the time I had with my wife. Afterall, I had a pretty big part in all of those things, and typically deserve about half of the credit. Sometimes good things happen because we work for them, sometimes good things just happen because they happen. There's no reason to bring God into the equation.

I don't "reject" God because I blame God for something, or anything. I reject your God concept because I don't see any need for it, and it doesn't make sense to me. I very simply have no reason to accept it. To say that I blame a God I don't believe in, for anything has logical problems right off the bat. I'm not angry with God, afterall at the moment I see it as nothing more than a concept, or an idea. I see no reason to be upset at ideas.

However, I'm basically furious with Christians, and you've just demonstrated why. You don't actually know me. You don't actually know my motivations, or my thinking process. I've tried to explain why I'm skeptical. I've done everything to explain as honestly as I can why I don't believe. I've even demonstrated my train of thought, and to do so without being too offensive. In the end, you've ignored everything I've said, and countered with "you're lying, you reject God because you blame Him for something."

You try to tell me what I think, and what I feel, and when I tell you that you're wrong you claim that I'm dishonest.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why you have to interpret me the way you do. I understand that it would be next to impossible for you to see reality the way I do, or to even begin to understand my position. However, that doesn't mean I'm not perfectly justified in being upset, and offended by your accusations. One should be able to understand why the vast, literally unimaginable concept of God is difficult to accept on just someone's personal testimony (or on the varying, contradicting personal testimonies of billions), and accept this without calling the unbeliever a liar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When I was 21, my church declared me a heretic, and my family abandoned me in favour of the church. I moved to a new city, started school, and spent years searching for God. However, without people whispering in my ear, I had to figure things out for myself, and hope that God would give me a sign, or simply give me faith. It just didn't happen. So I started to look for God among other ideas, and my concept of God just got larger, and more expansive, and vague, and ultimately contradictory to the point where the concept was too big to keep hold of, and I admitted to myself that I just didn't know anymore. I also couldn't say that I believed in any of these things, and remain honest. I found a certain joy in finding meaning in the existence I could be confident I had, rather than the existence I wished was there, but could never know. I neither blame God for my idiot siblings, nor do I credit God for the vastness of philosophical thought. There is no need to.

Then my wife died, and not long after that, my mother too, both from cancer.

Now reasonably, this would be the point in someone's life where they look to heaven, and ask of God: "why?" But I didn't, and I don't. It is much simpler to say: Good and bad things happen to everyone, and that's just the way things go. My concept was too big, and too uncertain to say that God had a hand in it. So while some people find comfort in God having control over everything, and doing everything for a reason we couldn't fathom, I found comfort in the idea that "God" wasn't "doing" anything. Nobody was being punished, there was no great significane, or reason behind it. The variables that lead to the deaths of my loved ones were far too numerous to try to cast any sort of blame on anything. Bad things just happen, often for no reason. There's no reason to bring God into the equation. I am still very comfortable with the non-explanatory explanation.

However, the flip side is that all the good things in my life, all of the positive things that have happened, have all happened because of hard work, and good circumstance. There is no reason to inject God into that either. Good things happen to people too. I don't feel the need to thank some God for my son, or my job, or the time I had with my wife. Afterall, I had a pretty big part in all of those things, and typically deserve about half of the credit. Sometimes good things happen because we work for them, sometimes good things just happen because they happen. There's no reason to bring God into the equation.

I don't "reject" God because I blame God for something, or anything. I reject your God concept because I don't see any need for it, and it doesn't make sense to me. I very simply have no reason to accept it. To say that I blame a God I don't believe in, for anything has logical problems right off the bat. I'm not angry with God, afterall at the moment I see it as nothing more than a concept, or an idea. I see no reason to be upset at ideas.

However, I'm basically furious with Christians, and you've just demonstrated why. You don't actually know me. You don't actually know my motivations, or my thinking process. I've tried to explain why I'm skeptical. I've done everything to explain as honestly as I can why I don't believe. I've even demonstrated my train of thought, and to do so without being too offensive. In the end, you've ignored everything I've said, and countered with "you're lying, you reject God because you blame Him for something."

You try to tell me what I think, and what I feel, and when I tell you that you're wrong you claim that I'm dishonest.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why you have to interpret me the way you do. I understand that it would be next to impossible for you to see reality the way I do, or to even begin to understand my position. However, that doesn't mean I'm not perfectly justified in being upset, and offended by your accusations. One should be able to understand why the vast, literally unimaginable concept of God is difficult to accept on just someone's personal testimony (or on the varying, contradicting personal testimonies of billions), and accept this without calling the unbeliever a liar.
Well you can get furious and feel all those things if you really think it is somehow good to do so. From my perspective you just seem to be unable or unwilling to think about what the Holy Bible says or even what Jesus says, and the only reason you've given me is because other people seem to disagree about the meaning they derive from it. Then you go on to say that God is a vast unimaginable concept and yet you seem to wonder why people don't agree about Him? That's quite a different matter from saying what He has said in the Bible is unreliable.

That's all I meant when I said you are blaming God for what others have done, I don't see any reason to derive the meaning you have from the comment I made except that you're venting here to me a bunch of thoughts that plague your mind.

Let me know if there is something I can do to help.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟65,945.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Well you can get furious and feel all those things if you really think it is somehow good to do so. From my perspective you just seem to be unable or unwilling to think about what the Holy Bible says or even what Jesus says, and the only reason you've given me is because other people seem to disagree about the meaning they derive from it.

I've been more than willing to think about it, I was a Christian for 21 years. I believed in it at the time. I don't see any value in it now.

My first problem is that I see no reason to hold the Bible as any sort of authority on anything really. Who is to say that it's not just a book written by a bunch of guys who dreamt up a "God" and wrote about Him, making declarations on His behalf, and condemning their enemies and people they don't like? Seeing other religions pop up in the past few centuries who have done exactly that, I don't see why that would be unimaginable. We still hear from people who claim to speak for God, even some who have claimed to be the second coming. All of these people are dismissed. Why should I assume that the people who wrote the Bible are any different than all of these?

Then you go on to say that God is a vast unimaginable concept and yet you seem to wonder why people don't agree about Him? That's quite a different matter from saying what He has said in the Bible is unreliable.

It's an alternate problem (I'm allowed to have more than one), but still the same idea. If it was simply people exchanging ideas on what God could be, then this wouldn't be a problem. This problem lies in the fact that every theist, in every theist denomination, of every theist religion assumes that they possess special knowledge of the singular truth to what God actually is, and dismisses all others as false, and a lie. So if their "singular truth" disagrees with the "singular truth" of every other theist organization, why should I believe that any of them are true? It's not just that theists can't agree on the meaning behind the Bible, but that they can't even agree on which holy book is actually meaningful, or what God is, or what God wants.

If we take holy books out of the equation (as we would never agree on which one, if any, is true), why should I assume that you have knowledge of God which is superior to every Muslim, every Jew, every Hindu, every Mormon, every Scientologist, or every Christian that disagrees with you? More to the point, why should I assume that you have knowledge of God which is superior to mine?

That's all I meant when I said you are blaming God for what others have done, I don't see any reason to derive the meaning you have from the comment I made except that you're venting here to me a bunch of thoughts that plague your mind.

So what, precisely, do you assume I "blame" God (which I don't believe in) for?
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I really hate argument with no apparent goal, it's such a waste of time. Still, your attitude in this post isn't rude at all, though I think it is less of an inquisitive heart you have than is required when you are seeking truth about matters pertaining to God. I think this is what we mean by having your eyes closed.
I've been more than willing to think about it, I was a Christian for 21 years. I believed in it at the time. I don't see any value in it now.
You know, value is truly subjective. As a child I had no concept of the value of money since I'd never really used it. As a young adult my life was fixed around money, since I didn't have much of it. As an older adult I never worry about money since there's nothing I need so much I can't afford. So money being one tangible asset has a subjective value depending on supply and demand. I think the same could be said about the Bible, if you were wanting to know the truth about God it would be quite valuable, but according to your current attitude toward God, the truth about God has no value to you. That's what I think anyway, perhaps you think you have a different reason for devaluing the Bible.
My first problem is that I see no reason to hold the Bible as any sort of authority on anything really. Who is to say that it's not just a book written by a bunch of guys who dreamt up a "God" and wrote about Him, making declarations on His behalf, and condemning their enemies and people they don't like? Seeing other religions pop up in the past few centuries who have done exactly that, I don't see why that would be unimaginable. We still hear from people who claim to speak for God, even some who have claimed to be the second coming. All of these people are dismissed. Why should I assume that the people who wrote the Bible are any different than all of these?
Well it's quite clearly the authority on YHWH, Jesus Christ, Israel and Christianity. You want to learn about another god, you need to find the source of information which that god has chosen to convey himself through. Some gods just use the mind for this, there's no written doctrine, it's all taught through spiritual communication.
It's an alternate problem (I'm allowed to have more than one), but still the same idea. If it was simply people exchanging ideas on what God could be, then this wouldn't be a problem. This problem lies in the fact that every theist, in every theist denomination, of every theist religion assumes that they possess special knowledge of the singular truth to what God actually is, and dismisses all others as false, and a lie. So if their "singular truth" disagrees with the "singular truth" of every other theist organization, why should I believe that any of them are true? It's not just that theists can't agree on the meaning behind the Bible, but that they can't even agree on which holy book is actually meaningful, or what God is, or what God wants.
I think you are missing a crucial piece of the puzzle that would put it in perspective, I'm not sure I can just explain it in a brief paragraph, but it all has to do with the existence of godly spirits who have eternal life, who all have an interest in humanity for one reason or another. The Holy Spirit is the one which Jesus received upon His baptism, and is the spirit that all His disciples receive upon their baptism. Other spirits don't require baptism to receive them, most of them just muscle their way in and take possession of the host even without the host realizing, but those who are spiritually aware can see it has happened.

So given that situation, would you really expect everyone who believes in something to support a spirit that they haven't chosen to trust? Some people do, and some spirits are even friends with each other and don't mind it if their victims share their beliefs with each other, even if they lose a belief they formerly held, the new belief will be just as effective a lie to prevent that one person coming to the truth, and the former belief is still there to fall back on should the new belief not work out one day.

I guess if you were to get serious you'd best look to understand the nature of the spirits before choosing which one you'd pledge your allegience to, and in case you're wondering what happens to those who don't pledge allegience to a spirit, such as an atheist? I really don't know the answer to that, it's not my decision to make what happens to each of us upon transcending earth. But I would suggest that if you have any fear of YHWH the father of Jesus, you might be very careful how friendly you get with that antichrist sprit, which you have indicated has caused you to doubt Jesus' authenticity.
If we take holy books out of the equation (as we would never agree on which one, if any, is true), why should I assume that you have knowledge of God which is superior to every Muslim, every Jew, every Hindu, every Mormon, every Scientologist, or every Christian that disagrees with you? More to the point, why should I assume that you have knowledge of God which is superior to mine?
That's a question I'm not sure how to answer because you've done something that causes an oxymoron - taking a holy book away which is the foundation for Christianity. So if I had not read that book and learned who Jesus is, I'd probably have no way to know what happened during Jesus' lifetime or what I must do, since it is passed as Chinese Whispers through generations of believers at best. That is not what has happened though, the records have been written and preserved as eye-witness accounts from the horses mouth (as far as New testament and some of the Old testament goes).

I think you need to ask those other religions where do they get their spiritual information from, whether they agree their gods are the same spirit that Jesus received from the hand of His father YHWH, which we refer to the Holy Spirit, and you could be surprised to find that there are some spirits who would deny it vehemently, while others would love to masquerade and impersonate the Holy Spirit. There's a lot of information in the Bible about spotting false witnesses, that is unholy spirits.
So what, precisely, do you assume I "blame" God (which I don't believe in) for?
I have assumed since your comment

"Again, I will point to the dizzying number of interpretations of the Bible, and suggest that no, the words in the Bible, and the words of Jesus are far from perfect."

That you think the problem of religious disagreements is due to God having not done well enough in His construction of the Bible. Is this correct? I'm still assuming it is, then maybe you ought to consider the spiritual aspect whereby those eternal god spirits that we listen to are not necessarily the Holy Spirit of YHWH, and when you can acknowledge that you might begin to see the reason why many churches and even self-professing non-Christians have a tendency take Bible passages and present them in a context that contradicts the nature of Jesus and His apostles, and thereby demonstrates that there is division amongst the church (when in actual fact these people have not received the Holy Spirit, they don't belong to the church of Jesus Christ but they like to think so)

Matthew 7:21
21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter.

Anyone holding a sign up to the world which says "God hates f*gs" is not demonstrating an ounce of Christendom, they have take a provocative verse which identifies a plank in someone's eye (a lot of people have this plank in their eye), and they go taking a scripture like this one "“Whom the Lord loves He chastens.” (Heb. 12:6,7)", turning it into their right to condemn people in public! Now, ask yourself even though you don't know the Holy Spirit personally, does this sound like an activity Jesus would tell you to do, or does it seem feasible that this church has a false teacher who has been convinced by a god being an enemy of Jesus to go out and make a mockery of His church? And if you had the spiritual capacity to identify this activity as being of an enemy spirit, what would you, as a Christian, actually do about it? Would you bomb their church as they bomb abortion clinics? I'm not sure what other Christians do about it, if anything, but the Holy Spirit grieves over these slaves to sin and would that any come to repentance. Sadly though, the Holy Spirit is not the most intrusive spirit in the world and He often gets shoved away when He comes to correct a person who has a hard heart. Then a verse like this becomes apparent: "2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more." - no wonder these false teachers get more and more contradictory to the common sense application of the Bible - they have been cut off from the Holy Spirit! They aren't now teaching truth by the Holy Spirit whose intent is for everyone to come to the light, they are teaching lies from the enemy whose intent is to turn everyone away from Christianity. This is the parable of the sower, though many will hear the truth, will receive the word into their hearts, their hearts just aren't fertile enough to grow the seed into a productive vine (this is all metaphorical speech for getting the best set of personal values which will turn you into a person fit for God's kingdom). These false teachers are the ones with shallow soil, as soon as they are tempted they fall away.

Being Christian doesn't make you immune to the enemy, it makes you responsible for your decisions. What it does do is give you the confidence to stand before Jesus and say "Lord, save me from the justice I deserve, we both know how my heart has been purely focussed on being as Christian as you expect from me".

I really hope you can give some thought about your attitude toward Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah of the Christian faith, the one who YHWH Himself brought into this world to conquer sin that those who choose to trust Him will be kept safe from the evil vices of the unholy gods. I think at your stage though, you're more inclined to argue against all gods, I'm not sure whether this is due somehow to convenience or pride, it can't be due to the argument they don't exist, there's a good percentage of the world that claims they have had proof to the contrary. So you make your own decisions, it either brings security or doubt, and since none of us have experienced death yet it could be considered the ultimate riddle. I stick by Jesus though because He's a man who's gone a long way for what His God required, and I like the peace of mind He gives me when I am approached by those other gods attempting to sway me into doubt with the hope that I might eventually form an allegiance with them.

I hope you aren't offended that I offer a prayer after what I have speaken to you about these things. Even having knowledge of God's enemies can cause you to be sympathetic to them. Dear Father, almighty God, keep me strong in faith, and please bless brother JGG here as he lives with us all who share the world, the humans, the gods and the other creatures both known and unknown to us. I offer a prayer that you'll touch this man's life, give him the motivation to discover the one and only truth, that with your divine guidance he'll see the marvelous beauty of truth constructed in your Word in comparison to the world full of empty promises and idealogical concepts that are lies creating lies, that lies cannot sustain themselves forever and one day sooner or later the truth will prevail. Lord, we all seek the worldwide revelation of truth with hopes that it comes soon, but we respectfully acknowledge your supremacy and honor you for knowing the best time is the right time. So I pray for your hedge of protection around the lives of JGG and myself as we continue to roam the garden you have given us, looking for every opportunity we have to be the gardener you had envisaged us to be. I pray this solemnly to the God Most High in the name of Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Saviour, blessed forever, Amen.

Thank you JGG, I enjoyed speaking here, I certainly hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears and that you'll have something substantial to add to the discussion, which has now gone from a focus on "why are atheists considered dishonest" to "what is the true religion" - maybe a temporary excursion, but certainly one worth discussing as you could even see a Christian attitude toward non-Christians or false Christians has the same confrontational effect as a Christian attitude toward an atheist. And might I add just to balance the scales, there's plenty of the vice-versa contention toward Christians - how many times have I (a website programmer) been told that Christianity is illogical by someone who cannot comprehend Christianity. I deal with logic every day, all day, and when I see some of the arguments made by non-Christians there are serious flaws in their logic. But they cover it up with excuses, building a bigger and bigger pile of lies to maintain their desire to be right. And don't think this doesn't happen to Christians because it does, and it takes the utmost humility to accept that you were wrong and to go back on a statement you had made prior. That is a matter of truth regardless of a person's religion or belief.

Take it easy JGG, hope you've had a good start to the year.
 
Upvote 0
D

DomainRider

Guest
Hi JGG, thanks for persisting with a fascinating thread and thanks to the other contributors for staying with it.

I find myself completely in sympathy with your scepticism and search for the truth - you've expressed all the questions and doubts that I have had over the years. But I have to say I don't think you'll find religious belief through scepticism and critical thinking, no matter how open-minded. Faith doesn't seem to work that way.

My recommendation is that you just hold to your moral guidelines (the Golden Rule, or whatever) and lead a life unencumbered with the unnecessary trappings of religion. Believe in yourself, be true to your own conscience.

It can be unpleasant when people treat you unjustly, but there are ways to handle it - find a way that satisfies you. For me, it's important to try an understand the other person's point of view - it does help, even if you know there's little chance or no chance of them understanding you. Faith is a strange thing - our brains are wired with a propensity for mystical and magical thinking, but perhaps we're not all wired quite the same. I spend a lot of time wondering how and why people's beliefs can be so different and so strange.
 
Upvote 0

godisreal36

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2010
1,645
94
State of ohio, USA
✟2,178.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus can bring happiness. I don't just say this i know this. Don't bother responding, I'm not going to argue about it if any disagree. Jesus is the way for me and i Love Him, he is teaching me to Love. Something i couldn't do without Him. He tells me to love my enemies, its hard for me to do this as it is for most people i think, but He is teaching me to Love others. Jesus healed my depression, i was not diagnosed with depression but the symptoms i had were the same as depression i think and i was very sad and without any Hope. Jesus gave me Hope and helps me Love others and now He's helping me love myself also, something even Harder for me to do than love my enemies. Jesus is good. If you Hope in Him, he will help you, not overnight but He will help if you Lean on Him and don't give up on Him. He will never Give up on you if you do this.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I spend a lot of time wondering how and why people's beliefs can be so different and so strange.

There must be some good papers you can find about this. I think the brain has a tendency to compare new information to the information it has already established, and in this way decide how to make sense of the new information. Thus, to accept a new belief that shatters existing beliefs is going to require a pretty serious reason. Then again, humans are notoriously changeable when they are tempted, and I think this is why some of the evangelicals emphasize the concept of heaven and hell as though it's a competition we are failing. When in fact the decision people have to make, is what is your attitude toward God, (in particular with Christianity, the one who sent Jesus to us with a message that we must listen to our conscience), and are you justified to feel that way toward Him? Those of us who manage to overcome the stage of blaming God for something we don't like can all tell others that God didn't cause the things we don't like. Yet for those to whom God isn't real, it's convenient to blame someone who you think doesn't exist. So adopting the belief that God is above us does have consequences, ultimately it shifts the blame off an invisible spaghetti monster and puts it on someone we can identify as being fallible and accountable, someone who is just as 'real' as you and me.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
'Taking out a toothpick' to go back to this:

Well, here's my problem with that. Different people interpret the Bible differently, and the various visions of God are often drastically different. it is impossible for an outsider to realistically pick and choose which "Christian" is presenting God correctly

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Notice the emphasis added. Also, you've heard of 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear?'
 
Upvote 0

BleedingHeart

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2011
1,596
44
Grand Blanc, Michigan
✟2,049.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Personally I'm an atheist but I'm not a very good liar and I cannot manipulate people. The reason many theists condemn us is because we do not believe there are invisible men in the sky. That's how it goes when you boil it down.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Personally I'm an atheist but I'm not a very good liar and I cannot manipulate people. The reason many theists condemn us is because we do not believe there are invisible men in the sky. That's how it goes when you boil it down.
Hi BleedingHeart, nice to meet you. It's not so much what an atheist believes that bothers me as a "theist", but that the opinionated ones actively encourage other people to rebel against their maker. Clearly they all have problems with accepting Him for who He is (and strictly speaking, even the majority of "theists" could be described like this), but it's not fair to lead others into the same snare that will ultimately put you at odds with the one who has consistently granted our existence.

What you don't seem to acknowledge is that our Lord apparently doesn't want us to love Him for the way He looks or however we might like Him to tickle our fancy, but for who He is as a person. I think it is better that we love Him for everything we need in a father - things like wisdom, righteousness, justice, grace, strength. That means that if we want to know Him for the person He is, we need to be listening to what He says and respecting Him instead of looking for excuses to justify why we choose to ignore Him.

I know it's not your thread, and rules prevent you from posting, but from what you said here I have just two questions for you:

Why is it that you don't believe He really did come to Moses as a burning bush and lead Israel out of Egypt?

At what point do you decide that the Bible is not worth reading in context of learning about the potter who made the jars?

It might be better to PM me or link me to another thread where we can discuss this with respect to forum rules and the OP.
 
Upvote 0

JGG

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2006
12,018
2,098
✟65,945.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I really hate argument with no apparent goal, it's such a waste of time.

The goal is objective truth, and understanding. It may indeed be unattainable to us, but that makes it no less a worthy goal.

Still, your attitude in this post isn't rude at all, though I think it is less of an inquisitive heart you have than is required when you are seeking truth about matters pertaining to God. I think this is what we mean by having your eyes closed.

Perhaps. However, I need to keep myself grounded. I haven't agreed that there is a God, and have no foundation to begin searching for one. For me, the possibility that there is no god at all is still on the table.

You know, value is truly subjective. As a child I had no concept of the value of money since I'd never really used it. As a young adult my life was fixed around money, since I didn't have much of it. As an older adult I never worry about money since there's nothing I need so much I can't afford. So money being one tangible asset has a subjective value depending on supply and demand. I think the same could be said about the Bible, if you were wanting to know the truth about God it would be quite valuable, but according to your current attitude toward God, the truth about God has no value to you. That's what I think anyway, perhaps you think you have a different reason for devaluing the Bible.

I can't accept that. Firstly, you want me to accept on faith that you are an authority on God, and that whatever you tell me about God is the truth. As I keep repeating, I can't do that. Remember, I'm not looking for faith. I'm simply trying to explain why I don't have faith. I think if Christians really understood this kind of thing they may not view us as their enemy. Again, not particularly likely, but it's all I can do.

As for my reasons for devaluing the Bible...

Well it's quite clearly the authority on YHWH, Jesus Christ, Israel and Christianity.

That might be true to the same effect that J.K. Rowling is the authority on Hogwarts, Voldemort, and Harry Potter. However, that does not open any doors which would allow me to believe that the characters or events depicited in the Harry Potter series are true. I do not see any reason why I should treat the Bible any differently.

My reasons for "devaluing" the Bible are very simply that I do not see any reason to actually give it value to begin with. I don't see any reason to take the Koran to be anything more than a collection of fictional stories designed to impart a philosophical point of view. I see the Baghavad Gita, and book of the Dead as philosophical thought exercises.

I think you are missing a crucial piece of the puzzle that would put it in perspective, I'm not sure I can just explain it in a brief paragraph, but it all has to do with the existence of godly spirits who have eternal life, who all have an interest in humanity for one reason or another.

Okay, the skeptic in me is going to stop you right there. How do we know that these godly spirits actually exist? How do we know they have eternal life.

That's a question I'm not sure how to answer because you've done something that causes an oxymoron - taking a holy book away which is the foundation for Christianity. So if I had not read that book and learned who Jesus is, I'd probably have no way to know what happened during Jesus' lifetime or what I must do, since it is passed as Chinese Whispers through generations of believers at best. That is not what has happened though, the records have been written and preserved as eye-witness accounts from the horses mouth (as far as New testament and some of the Old testament goes).

Okay, so what you're saying is that to believe in God, I have to believe in this book. This book is the authority on YHWH, Jesus, etc. We would know nothing of these things without this book. There would be no Christianity without this book. Back to my previous question: Why should I take this book to be truth?

I have assumed since your comment

"Again, I will point to the dizzying number of interpretations of the Bible, and suggest that no, the words in the Bible, and the words of Jesus are far from perfect."

That you think the problem of religious disagreements is due to God having not done well enough in His construction of the Bible. Is this correct?

No, I think the problem of religious disagreement is due the likelihood that they're all invented. We've watched L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, and hundreds of cult leaders invent various religions in the past couple centuries. It is not unreasonable to expect that this is true of religion in general. I'm not going to blame God for that. Maybe God is something more substancial and complex than a celestial father figure, and fostering belief in itself is not a priority. Maybe there is no god at all. In these cases, blaming God for not appearing and sorting it all out for us is folly.

Anyone holding a sign up to the world which says "God hates f*gs" is not demonstrating an ounce of Christendom, they have take a provocative verse which identifies a plank in someone's eye (a lot of people have this plank in their eye), and they go taking a scripture like this one "&#8220;Whom the Lord loves He chastens.&#8221; (Heb. 12:6,7)", turning it into their right to condemn people in public! Now, ask yourself even though you don't know the Holy Spirit personally, does this sound like an activity Jesus would tell you to do, or does it seem feasible that this church has a false teacher who has been convinced by a god being an enemy of Jesus to go out and make a mockery of His church? And if you had the spiritual capacity to identify this activity as being of an enemy spirit, what would you, as a Christian, actually do about it? Would you bomb their church as they bomb abortion clinics? I'm not sure what other Christians do about it, if anything, but the Holy Spirit grieves over these slaves to sin and would that any come to repentance. Sadly though, the Holy Spirit is not the most intrusive spirit in the world and He often gets shoved away when He comes to correct a person who has a hard heart. Then a verse like this becomes apparent: "2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn&#8217;t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more." - no wonder these false teachers get more and more contradictory to the common sense application of the Bible - they have been cut off from the Holy Spirit! They aren't now teaching truth by the Holy Spirit whose intent is for everyone to come to the light, they are teaching lies from the enemy whose intent is to turn everyone away from Christianity. This is the parable of the sower, though many will hear the truth, will receive the word into their hearts, their hearts just aren't fertile enough to grow the seed into a productive vine (this is all metaphorical speech for getting the best set of personal values which will turn you into a person fit for God's kingdom). These false teachers are the ones with shallow soil, as soon as they are tempted they fall away.

Being Christian doesn't make you immune to the enemy, it makes you responsible for your decisions. What it does do is give you the confidence to stand before Jesus and say "Lord, save me from the justice I deserve, we both know how my heart has been purely focussed on being as Christian as you expect from me".

When I was in college, my would-be-wife and I rented out two rooms in our basement to some other students. One of them was a Star Trek fan. He was a good guy, he paid his rent on time, he didn't disturb anyone, etc... He was a geek. One day Mags asked him about the newest Star Trek movie which had just come out in theaters. He said he would never see it because it was about the "New Generation" and not really Star Trek. We ended up having a discussion about the politics of Star Trek, in which he explained that those who love the original, Captain Kirk series were true "Trekkers." Those who watched the new series were the blasphemous Trekkies.

To me they were all Trekkies, and I'm not. It's not up to me to differentiate which ones are right, and which are not. It's all the same to me. Its and issue for you to argue amongst yourselves.

However, as I showed earlier, the majority of Americans believe that I, as an atheist, am somehow, fundamentally different from them, and therefore untrustworthy, their enemy, and an enemy of their God. Coupling this with the fact that I don't believe that there's any such "True Christian" I'm not inclined to differentiate between them and the fake ones. From where I sit, the difference between those who say I'm their enemy, and those who merely think that I am, is negligible.

I really hope you can give some thought about your attitude toward Jesus Christ, who is the Messiah of the Christian faith, the one who YHWH Himself brought into this world to conquer sin that those who choose to trust Him will be kept safe from the evil vices of the unholy gods. I think at your stage though, you're more inclined to argue against all gods, I'm not sure whether this is due somehow to convenience or pride, it can't be due to the argument they don't exist, there's a good percentage of the world that claims they have had proof to the contrary.

"Claiming" you have proof is not enough. You have to be able to present it. It makes me all the more skeptical that these "proofs" are never quite objective, or what I would consider substancial proof of God. It also doesn't help that even people who believe in God are frequently unwilling to accept the "proof" of other religions who also believe in God.

Again, for the most part, those who believe in God hate me because I don't. I was excommunicated, and lost my friends and family because of my lack of belief. That's hardly what I would consider convenient. It's actually quite a sacrifice with no pay off, other than being honest with myself.

As for pride, I'm the one who is willing to say "I don't know."

So you make your own decisions, it either brings security or doubt, and since none of us have experienced death yet it could be considered the ultimate riddle.

It's really not a decision. I can only believe that which I find believable, and I can understand. I don't get to choose that. The only thing I choose, is to be honest to myself.

Perhaps that's why I'm offended when Christians assume I'm a liar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
D

DomainRider

Guest
... for those to whom God isn't real, it's convenient to blame someone who you think doesn't exist.
That really doesn't make sense. If you really think something doesn't exist, you can't seriously blame it for anything (although you can in jest, e.g. 'oops, tripped over the invisible step!'). Generally when atheists 'blame' God, it's lazy rhetorical irony - asking the question of believers, e.g. 'if God is so great, then why does he allow <insert complaint here>'.

So adopting the belief that God is above us does have consequences, ultimately it shifts the blame off an invisible spaghetti monster and puts it on someone we can identify as being fallible and accountable, someone who is just as 'real' as you and me.
It seems to me that the whole blame game is childish, debilitating nonsense. Sometimes bad things happen that are outside your control - probability and statistics tells you that this is how the world works; no individual is privileged with regard to chance. Likewise with good fortune. People who focus on the negative things think they're unlucky, people who focus on the positive things think they're lucky.

My philosophy is that you should take responsibility for your own decisions and actions, and take your decisions and actions with that in mind. It also helps if you take the trouble to learn basic probability and statistics, study human nature, and make sure you understand risk.

That's not to say you shouldn't hold responsible someone who clearly does you wrong, but more often than not such problems occur from one's prior incorrect assessment of risk.
 
Upvote 0
M

MattRose

Guest
That really doesn't make sense. If you really think something doesn't exist, you can't seriously blame it for anything (although you can in jest, e.g. 'oops, tripped over the invisible step!'). Generally when atheists 'blame' God, it's lazy rhetorical irony - asking the question of believers, e.g. 'if God is so great, then why does he allow <insert complaint here>'.


It seems to me that the whole blame game is childish, debilitating nonsense. Sometimes bad things happen that are outside your control - probability and statistics tells you that this is how the world works; no individual is privileged with regard to chance. Likewise with good fortune. People who focus on the negative things think they're unlucky, people who focus on the positive things think they're lucky.

My philosophy is that you should take responsibility for your own decisions and actions, and take your decisions and actions with that in mind. It also helps if you take the trouble to learn basic probability and statistics, study human nature, and make sure you understand risk.

That's not to say you shouldn't hold responsible someone who clearly does you wrong, but more often than not such problems occur from one's prior incorrect assessment of risk.
I read an article on how people learn to believe that outcomes to problems or situations are effected by supernatural events (i.e. Gods). I don't want to delve too deeply into whether or not God created man or vice versa, but an interesting experiment was discussed. Everyone has seen or heard that a chicken, mouse, etc. can learn a complex routine in order to get food. Well an experiment was devised where a pigeon would be given a button to poke at that apparently dispensed food. In reality the food was dispensed at random intervals and did not require a poke at the button. The researchers noticed that the pigeons started repeating movements or actions that they had done right before the food was dispensed previously. They would sometimes look over the left shoulder, poke the button 3 times, etc. because the food was dispensed right after they did this on previous attempts. The pigeons 'invented' superstition! The pigeon god was probably not far behind.
 
Upvote 0
D

DomainRider

Guest
...
The researchers noticed that the pigeons started repeating movements or actions that they had done right before the food was dispensed previously. They would sometimes look over the left shoulder, poke the button 3 times, etc. because the food was dispensed right after they did this on previous attempts. The pigeons 'invented' superstition! The pigeon god was probably not far behind.
This is exactly the basis behind human superstition and magical thinking - e.g. the footballers who always wear their 'lucky' socks because they once won wearing them, etc. They may explain it as an attempt to influence capricious fortune, but it's a very primitive response. I suppose it could be justified as psychologically beneficial - the feeling of having control.

Some interesting studies of believers in God have turned up the surprising results that their image of God generally closely mirrors their own personal opinions, attitudes, and moral preferences - as if they were (ironically) moulding God in their own image... For example: www jstor.org/pss/1384430 (God Image as a function of Self Esteem).
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think if Christians really understood this kind of thing they may not view us as their enemy.

Hi! Christian behavior needs to see no human being as an enemy. If you need proof of that from our own teachings I can furnish that, but for now I'll assume you would rather be spared the quotes.

Does that mean that C's have not tortured, maimed and killed other devout and Faithful C's, over petty squabbles? Does that mean C's don't treat people wrongly, w/ either no good reason or reasons that really aren't good? Does that mean that repentance flips some switch on the back of our head that insures we never sin again?

Of course not. But perhaps if you were armed with the knowledge that the only flesh a C wrestles with is their own, you might be more effective in the types of interactions you seem to be complaining about in your OP. (Btw, my statement here does not address a C fulfilling duties as a soldier)

My reasons for "devaluing" the Bible are very simply that I do not see any reason to actually give it value to begin with.

Ok, so we live in a society that has advanced past the need for basic moral instruction. Do you not realize the Bible itself has been foundational to the process? I really don't see how you could miss that, unless you've allowed the historic revisionism of our current educational system(s) to somehow convince you that books written about our founding era are more valid than what our FF's themselves said. which is all available at your County seat, in the Law library.

There would be no Christianity without this book.

While I can't agree with that, the important point here is you seem to have a faulty notion that C is following directions in a book.

It's not. (Just so you know) That's legalism, which stops C dead in it's tracks.

Maybe God is something more substancial and complex than a celestial father figure, and fostering belief in itself is not a priority. Maybe there is no god at all. In these cases, blaming God for not appearing and sorting it all out for us is folly.

:thumbsup:

"Claiming" you have proof is not enough. You have to be able to present it.

I understand your mindset here very well, but Spirit does not co-operate with our test tubes, labs, or other repeatable experiments. Different rules apply. At the same time, my "proof," has limited (or no) value to you. I do accept that and actually, all across CF I see more C's accepting this simple wisdom.

I think your interaction w/ believers can do a lot of good, for what it's worth. And while the phrase "Jesus Loves you" meant approx nothing to me for over 10 years of being radically saved - Jesus Loves you, and so do I.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,549
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Hi! Christian behavior needs to see no human being as an enemy. If you need proof of that from our own teachings I can furnish that, but for now I'll assume you would rather be spared the quotes.
.
That brings to mind this passage in Romans 11 concerning the Jews/circumcision group:

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written--'There shall have come out of Zion the Deliverer,--He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 And this for them is the covenant from me, as soon as I take away their sins'.
28 According indeed the Good-Message, enemies/ecqroi <2190> because of ye, according to yet the choice, beloveds because of the fathers.

But in the next chapter, my bro Paul also says this about our enemies [whether it be Jews, Muslims, Hindus or any other non Christian [he is quoting from Prov 25] :thumbsup:

Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink:
for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[Prov 25:22]

Proverbs 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and YHVH shall reward thee.
[Romans 12:20]
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,546
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That "heaping coals of fie upon his head" is a confusing statement in this era. The working class would try to build a fire for utilitarian purposes, and people rich enough to actually own a house would give a small coal from their fire, putting it on something carried on the head. So it was a blessing, not a burning curse! (Notice also the generosity implied in the passage.)

I think our OP is discovering that while the Christian text is shorter, it is more complex? It does seem that way for a while, but the Power of the Gospel is in it's simplicity ...
 
Upvote 0